Card/Deck Artifact/Enchantment destruction

[Chris Taylor]

I've long had a problem where nobody actually plays cards like naturalize or even Viridian Shaman in my cube because even if your opponents deck has targets, they rarely do all the time, and when they don't, the card is horrible (to the point of being dead with naturalize)

There's a few ways to solve this problem, but most of the wizards one are horrible:



So I've had a project on the back burner for a while to make some good ones.

eg:
Gentle Fist
Instant
Choose 1: Harm's Way or Shatter
This one has the problem that theres a lot of text on the final card

Cloying Mists
Instant
Choose 1: fog or demistify
Does anyone actually play fog? Is it good?

etc etc etc

Show me your ideas! How do we make naturalize something you wouldn't be embarrassed to main deck?

 

[anotak]

1) make more things artifacts/artifact creatures. i have 83/400 are artifacts, and 9 enchantments
2) i run
nature's claim
acidic slime
primal command
wickerbough elder

Spoiler

 

[anotak]

so because of my situation with regards to this i've noticed a goofy situation where the normally stellar grafted wargear is now awful and constantly getting players 2-for-1d

 

[Chris Taylor]

I can't say I really like nature's claim, since it has the same problem naturalize and viridian shaman do: It doesn't do anything if they dont have targets (Shut up grey ogre isn't a card)

The way I see it there's a few strategies:
1) Add enough mediocre artifacts/enchantments so that naturalize is maindeckable, but isn't always something great (the bestow option)
2) Remove everything strong enough for people to want to board in naturalize (the jitte option)
3) Add naturalize like effects which also interact with more common permanents (The vindicate option)

I really don't like the bestow option because by their nature, artifacts/enchantments aren't really threats (unless your running a bunch of bestow guys, who are mostly below the jedi curve at the moment).
A cube that has a billion artifact creatures will have shatter as a good card, but it isn't necessarily the cube I wanna build.

There's a few artifacts/enchantments which help people win the game (Sulfuric Vortex, Staff of Nin, Batterskull) but they are deffinitly in the minority.

The Jitte option I don't like either because when you remove the best card from a cube, another card becomes the best card. The same way, when you remove an artifact/enchantment, something else becomes the new bogeyman, until people are crying out to have bonesplitter banned because there's no playable way to interact with it.

 

[anotak]

i would say i'm something like #1 without being like #1.
nature's claim could easily be improved on.

try out "disillusionment" from those designs i posted if you're going to put anything like that in, it works wonders, and helps promote graveyard / sac/ and cycling themes.

i don't run jitte because i think it is just too powerful compared to the other cards i want to run and that makes picking it very easy and the games you draw it in to stop being games unless it does get naturalized.

 

[Jason Waddell]

The Jitte option I don't like either because when you remove the best card from a cube, another card becomes the best card. The same way, when you remove an artifact/enchantment, something else becomes the new bogeyman, until people are crying out to have bonesplitter banned because there's no playable way to interact with it.

I don't think this is a very solid argument at all. Sure, there may be a best, but it might not be a "feel bad" best, or it might not be as much of an outlier in the power scale.

I do think as cube designers we should discuss more whether a) we even really need artifacts strong enough to deserve interaction, and b) what we do with the density of both artifacts and artifact removal.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I don't think this is a very solid argument at all. Sure, there may be a best, but it might not be a "feel bad" best, or it might not be as much of an outlier in the power scale.

I do think as cube designers we should discuss more whether a) we even really need artifacts strong enough to deserve interaction, and b) what we do with the density of both artifacts and artifact removal.

Okay there's a nuanced response to this somewhere in this old brain of mine but I'm not sure coffee levels are sufficient to commit it to page yet. I'm going to try a different approach:


Here's a few situations in which I'd like some artifact/enchantment removal:

1) To make oblivion ring an interesting card instead of literal vindicate
2) Gain tempo by killing my opponents mana rock
3) Kill Auras for either game advantage (control magic) or combat tricks (sword of fire/ice, rancor, armadillo cloak etc)
4) Creature removal (Batterskull, Boon Satyr, Porcelain Legionaire)

5) Destroy something super broken (Jitte, a well timed tangle wire, opposition, Moat)

5 is probably the most egrigeous, and this is super cube dependent.

Of the others:
1) Probably not a huge deal, vindicate (while good) isn't a broken card.
2) Avalanche riders is a sweet card, and tempo makes the game fun. Adding enough targets to make viridian shaman consistently like avalanche riders has been hard for me
3) a nice level for these cards, but hardly necessary to a good environment. While this adds value to artifact/enchantment hate, I'm loathe to count on it
4) Here's my main sticking point: There's like 5 good artifact creatures, and a single good enchantment creature. (more with BTG, hopefully)

1,2,3 are all side benifits for these cards, since mana rocks need tight control before your cube starts going all grim monolith on people. Oring is perfectly fine, there's not many auras (even after trying to add more, FWIW) and there's bloody no creature targets.

And yet, I still wanna blow up eldrazi monument and awakening zone.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I do think as cube designers we should discuss more whether a) we even really need artifacts strong enough to deserve interaction, and b) what we do with the density of both artifacts and artifact removal.

I think a good thing to do is before you put any enchantment or artifact in your cube is to ask "Is the game still good if the opponent can't kill this?" If the answer is no, why are you putting in a card that is only fun when it isn't on the table? Do you know when card is never on the table? When it isn't in your cube.

 

[anotak]

that's almost a good argument except i feel like i could apply it to any creature

 

[FlowerSunRain]

that's almost a good argument except i feel like i could apply it to any creature

What would be the problem with it applying to any card? Why are removal check cards (i.e. Check if the opponent has removal, otherwise win) good for cube?

Obviously cards need to be powerful enough to move the game forward and sometimes a card that is not removed will win the game, but that winning situation should be built upon the interplay that has gone on up to that point rather then that previous interplay being negated by the "must remove" card.

 

[anotak]

my point was that even grizzly bears just wins the game if the opponent has no way of dealing with it

though this discussion has morphed into the thread from the main cube forum

 

[Kuldahar]

Everything else in a cube has an answer in one form of another. The amount of answers for a particular aspect of the cube is a direct correlation of the threat(perceived?) of that aspect. Basically we have removal for creatures /planeswalkers /players /land etc. If we are to include artifacts and enchantments in our cubes, we need to have a way to answer them as well - otherwise the become non-interactive cards that we love to hate. Is general permanent removal enough though to fill that role? (eg oblivion ring) Maybe. I would think a naturalize on a body would be enough incentive to run those cards - maybe it needs to be more flashier than a bear... how about a bear with flash? (lol).

/waffle

 

[Chris Taylor]

my point was that even grizzly bears just wins the game if the opponent has no way of dealing with it

though this discussion has morphed into the thread from the main cube forum

Thus my objections

I actually did post this question to the general masses a while back in the custom card thread, asking for similar suggustions (more Crushing Vines and less Dismantling Blow) but nothing really came of it, thus this thread.

Everything else in a cube has an answer in one form of another. The amount of answers for a particular aspect of the cube is a direct correlation of the threat(perceived?) of that aspect. Basically we have removal for creatures /planeswalkers /players /land etc. If we are to include artifacts and enchantments in our cubes, we need to have a way to answer them as well - otherwise the become non-interactive cards that we love to hate. Is general permanent removal enough though to fill that role? (eg oblivion ring) Maybe. I would think a naturalize on a body would be enough incentive to run those cards - maybe it needs to be more flashier than a bear... how about a bear with flash? (lol).

/waffle

I do have a 2/1 naturalize in my cube, but maybe we need to go deeper?

 

[Jason Waddell]

I think there's a big discussion to be had on the subject, but I am considering removing all "must remove" artifacts / enchantments from my cube, and stripping nearly all the artifact removal with it.

 

[James Stevenson]

I'm considering the same thing, but what about birthing pod? Beat it on the creature front?

 

[Chris Taylor]

I'm considering the same thing, but what about birthing pod? Beat it on the creature front?

This is where I get nervous too.

Birthing pod is a fine card, but I still want people to be able to fight it.
Eldrazi monument kinda has a similar feeling to it, mostly because it makes your creatures indestructible, so the ONLY way to fight it is with artifact hate.

Jitte has it's own discussion, but I think it's fine. Same with batterskull here.

 

[anotak]

I actually did post this question to the general masses a while back in the custom card thread, asking for similar suggustions (more Crushing Vines and less Dismantling Blow) but nothing really came of it, thus this thread.

and i did post some responses at the time though i don't think they were as well done as the cards i ended up using in my cube. i agree that nature's claim is a bit sideboardy but the others i listed are getting maindecked relatively often so its ok

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Extortion racket
1BR instant
Choose one: destroy target artifact or search target opponents library for an artifact and put it into their graveyard. Draw a card.

 

[anotak]

Extortion racket
1BR instant
Choose one: destroy target artifact or search target opponents library for an artifact and put it into their graveyard. Draw a card.

would "target player" be particularly abusive

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Ooh, interesting. Target player it is then.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

2G instant
Target creature gets +2/+2 and trample until end of turn. When that creature deals combat damage to a player or planeswalker destroy target artifact or enchantment.

 

[Chris Taylor]

2G instant
Target creature gets +2/+2 and trample until end of turn. When that creature deals combat damage to a player or planeswalker destroy target artifact or enchantment.

I like it! It can probably be cheaper, since the kill is conditional on an attacking unblocked creature that lives etc
It can probably be 1G, since there's a lot of times this can't actually kill an artifact. I kinda really like that about it

 

[Jason Waddell]

I like it! It can probably be cheaper, since the kill is conditional on an attacking unblocked creature that lives etc
It can probably be 1G, since there's a lot of times this can't actually kill an artifact. I kinda really like that about it

Uh, well, it gives Trample, so...

 

[Chris Taylor]

Uh, well, it gives Trample, so...

There's still a bunch of situations where there guy is too big, or all your guys are dead/summoning sick, or god forbid condemn

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Which do you reckon?:

Rusty Knoll 1
~ comes into play tapped.
Tap to add R to your pool.
R2 tap, sac: destroy target artifact.

Rusty Knoll 2
Tap to add 1 to your pool.
R2 tap, sac: destroy target artifact.