I think Thrun is great design and I like the puzzle he forces players to solve. Everything should have answers, even removal.
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
I'm probably adding Thrun in my next update for this reason. I don't really like Hexproof guys simply because they are non-interactive, but this guy feels very green to me. Plus since losing Lotleth and Ascetic, I think I'm down to zero trolls and that is just not right.
Thrun feels like the epitome of a 'fair' card. Personally, I find hexproof is more interesting on durdly, non-evasive ground pounders than on your Invisible Stalkers.
Having said all that, though, he's kind of at a middling power level cube-wise, so I don't even run him anymore.
Having said all that, though, he's kind of at a middling power level cube-wise, so I don't even run him anymore.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'm starting to turn around on the hexproof guys, as long as they are within reason. Angelic Overseer is a great puzzle for both players, and fleecemane lion results in a lot of interesting mana decisions as well.
Removal does sometimes needs a check, and the hexproof guys, in general, are a good way to remind everyone that board position should matter.
CML
Contributor
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I was thinking about this earlier. Like it's easy to get caught up in specific (do you want 2 Jittes or 0). There's the flavor aspect (there can be only one) that is violated entirely by the new legend rule, then there's the mechanical aspect. A card like Thalia would likely not make it into Standard if it were possible for a player to have multiple of her on the battlefield concurrently.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
You'll have to give me a little bit more time before I can come back with concrete antidotes. I run two of them, and thus far every time they show up in the draft they are picked and make the final 40. However, that is mostly because the card represents design space to explore in a cube that has a strong sacrifice theme as well as big mana targets. I want to give it some time and see where the players take the card, and how well it grows with the cube, before I give any strong opinions that people might rely on.
As for my actual reasoning for including it, I’ve grown to really dislike the green ramp decks, because certain players will just draft that deck every single week. The Altar is supposed to tie together sacrifice and token themes, provide an alternate form of "sacrifice" ramp that fits into non-green decks, act as a colorless sacrifice outlet, and be a loosely supported build around for the players to try to break.
Are you giving people the draft fodder necessary for the average deck to have a lot of reliable answers to thrun, even if answered at a disadvantage? 4 toughness + regeneration is rough stuff, even if removal did work on the big idiot.
I guess you run hallowed burial so whatever. I'm just still sore because I lost a lot of games to Thrun + anything one of the last times I cube drafted 3x times in a row because I didn't have access to my very specific answers.
Every deck has ways to work around a 4/4 groundpounder but I imagine if you're drafting blue every time you might have a biased opinion.
Thrun comes off as way too forced for my tastes. I dislike hexproof for the most part and literally the ONLY unconditional hexproof dude my cube runs is Troll Ascetic. Now while I do like Troll Ascetic as a big leg up for any deck running green that has to deal with "removalcontrol.dec", I have one friend in particular that despises the card to no end due to countless losses involving a Rancor on him or the now retired Wolfir Silverheart bond. I imagine that if Troll Ascetic (which is completely balanced in my opinion) annoys some players as much as it does, Thrun would lead to nightmarish accusations that I am a terrible cube designer. I'm sure Thrun is fine in any cube on a power level that acknowledges the titan's existence, but that's just it. When I designed my cube, I did it with the intent of not building based around a world with titans, cuz the titans were mostly dumb in power level. On that note, I DO like the Souls a lot better and kind of find it aggravating how badly you wailed on them in your M15 review. They got cool interactions with discard and stuff... why you gotta be a meanie?
It's harder to deal with things like Thrun + anything. Twice that day it involved wolf run, once it involved a sword, after having dealt with one of the wolf runs in a game and finally gotten a substantial blocker out ( a serious investment of a six mana creature to keep a 4/4 off your back) he dropped a topdeck'd silverheart and I felt real lost.
My decks weren't the worst but pretty much all of them were 18 landers those drafts. I'm just not pleased with my performance against the card, I don't think it's awful. I can just see how it's the kind of card that makes people sigh and roll their eyes. Especially if you haven't thought about it when building your cube. Like I did get to balance a thrun once, and Day it once, so I felt smart and like I had to engineer boardstates to get it going but those were like usually my one thrun answer in my deck over 3 colours.
My decks weren't the worst but pretty much all of them were 18 landers those drafts. I'm just not pleased with my performance against the card, I don't think it's awful. I can just see how it's the kind of card that makes people sigh and roll their eyes. Especially if you haven't thought about it when building your cube. Like I did get to balance a thrun once, and Day it once, so I felt smart and like I had to engineer boardstates to get it going but those were like usually my one thrun answer in my deck over 3 colours.
Thrun is usually never "just a 4/4". Like Lucre said, usually the thing involves some kind of equipment or wolfrun or whatever. The regen is a potentially a big deal too.
I don't see why thrun gamestates are desirable, regardless of the power level of the card. Do people really find that thing fun? I really don't get it.
I don't see why thrun gamestates are desirable, regardless of the power level of the card. Do people really find that thing fun? I really don't get it.
Even without thrun, creatureless control is so difficult to make possible in today's magic (ignoring current standard where you can have 4x sphinxes, which does not reflect most of our draft environments). I don't see why it is desirable to hose what is basically a non-archetype
As I'm not running most of the broken equips, I don't see Thrun as a huge problem. Sure, Rancor and Silverheart are both nasty combos with this thing, but you know what? Green should have some really bomby creature cards. I don't see the problem. It's not like he costs 3G either.
Green sucks at pretty much everything. The one thing they should NOT suck at is casting heinous ground dudes. And regeneration is totally a green ability. I like this card from a flavor standpoint a lot.
Green sucks at pretty much everything. The one thing they should NOT suck at is casting heinous ground dudes. And regeneration is totally a green ability. I like this card from a flavor standpoint a lot.
Yeah, I'm not sure how closely this is correlated with Thrun's performance, but I might have inadvertently neutered his power by removing the suite of Swords, along with Jitte.
I feel like there are so many higher upside cards in green than Thrun, though, that I can't really say I've missed him. Sure, Wolfir Silverheart is a combo with him - but doesn't Silverheart combo with everything? Same with Kessig Wolf Run, which works just fine on a meager Llanowar Elves.
I feel like there are so many higher upside cards in green than Thrun, though, that I can't really say I've missed him. Sure, Wolfir Silverheart is a combo with him - but doesn't Silverheart combo with everything? Same with Kessig Wolf Run, which works just fine on a meager Llanowar Elves.
Thrun is pretty horrible IMO.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I would rather run troll ascetic as a non-conditional hexproof creature than thrun. Ascetic's two toughness makes having regeneration mana up a real issue, the three power provides a meaningful incentive to combine him with creature buffs, and his place on the mana curve is perfect for creating a non-oppressive incentive for slow decks to maintain some kind of board presence.
I don't really like how Thrun is positioned to impact a cube environment: he is too much a hate card i.m.o
I don't really like how Thrun is positioned to impact a cube environment: he is too much a hate card i.m.o
I haven't played him, so not saying this is wrong. But what is he hating against exactly? Removal.dec? Counterspell.dec?
Aggro can run him, so it can't be that. Midrange should love this guy. Is control really foiled by this thing? What am I missing?
I cut Thrun about a year ago and never missed him. He didn't contribute anything unique or even wanted in our draft environment. Thrun just is what he is and he's just kinda there. He's resilient, but is easily trumped and never feels special. Additionally, there's so many good fours it's just kinda like "Why bother?"