Card/Deck Start your Engines: A Temur Card Advantage Deck

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I wouldn't call it a failure yet. It seems natural to me that a person early picking seasons past would also run blue, and than red seems like a natural support color for removal. The relationship seems very strong given that green tends to ramp, and red sweepers are either X based or wildfire. In addition, green has recursive elements, which are important for control, as well as life gain that may be.
 
Here's a loose assortment of thoughts on this general subject:

I find a major hurdle in the proposition itself; a 3-colour strategy. I think 2-colour strategies are, generally speaking, superior fun to 3-colour strategies, which are necessarily more narrow, less intuitive, and harder to pick into. For me, I tend to look for signs and lines in a format; Young Pyromancer and Abbot of Keral Keep are signs that Spells-Matter is something you can do with red; Magma Jet and Reckless Charge offer creative lines of play to follow if you're drafting with those signs in mind (the former a potential 3 damage to an incoming attacker off the token + the Jet with Scry 2 to dig for more gas, the latter a potential 6-point life swing for 3 mana out of nowhere). Some signs are clearer than others; Eidolon of Blossoms really yells enchantress is here, whereas Buried Alive says graveyard shenanigans abound. Certainly not all these archetypes, themes, or strategies truly make for good decks; that's a matter of the whims of variance and the skills of the cube designer. But the point is, they lead into one another. Three-colour strategies are harder to foster because, while your signs might be there, your lines aren't nearly as clear, because they could be tumbled across any of the five colours or not available at all, and that's hard for a non-format curator to really pick up on. It's for this reason that things like mono-red aggro are such popular decks; the signs and lines are all in-house. If you see Jackal Pup and Firedrinker Satyr, picking into mono-red aggro seems like a real possibility; but what does an uninformed drafter discern from Trade Routes? Is that a sign? Is it supposed to be a generic value piece? Does it suggest a line of play in blue? If not in blue, with what colour? Is it simply a format mistake?

I think we can all pretty much agree that there's a universal experience when showing players Life From the Loam for the first time; they don't get it. You then describe a million scenarios, and they still just sort of go; "Oh... wow, that's really cool!", and then still fail to play it successfully until you showcase the card yourself. Even then, they'll probably keep missing out on interactions for a while until they grow as a drafter some more and begin to comprehend how the process works. Then, if they're any bit of a Johnny like you are for being a dork and showing off some durdle-value engine like LftL, it'll become "a classic" to them, one of those little gems you may not always pick up, but that you have to dust off and play every now and then, as a loving homage to the joys of discovery and the complexity it entails. This is a core problem of LftL; players have a hard time really getting it at first. Suggesting to them that it belongs in a 3-colour pile with no explicit goal other than "we'll get there" is kind of a rough prospect.

I find the hurdle similar with Gifts Ungiven; it's just kind of the cheekiest card to play, because lower-skill players cannot comprehend how you can turn that into a useful card. I think it's perhaps even harder to sell than LftL, because at least players feel in control of Loam; Gifts, they can't fathom very well. I see it mostly as an ego stroking pick, and I'm fine to include those, but again, it's a rough prospect to suggest that it functions as a cool core to a 3-colour pile with no explicit parameters other than "you'll figure out how to get what you need into your hand and how to do it, don't worry". That so many of the guides for the card (we now have two; safra covered this before pretty beautifully also) demand Snapcaster Mage or Eternal Witness, two of the highest picks for anyone going {U} or {G}, is also not working in its favour, and in non-singleton environs, sometimes I've got two Remands left in my deck along with a Cryptic Command and nothing else to really trick them into. Villain, great Fun-Ruiner that they are, will likely bin my 2 counters and leave me with the spot removal and the draw spell I threw into the pile, because they immediately perceived the threat of the counters. And god dammit, I wanted those counters! Stupid Gifts. I'll just pick up Dig Through Time next draft, Gifts sucks!!! And thus, another card gets relegated to last pick..

Now, I don't want to seem like I'm poo-pooing on this concept; I'm all on-board for exploratory design. But I have some hurdles here:
  • 3colour strategies are harder to plant signs for; players are bad enough at recognizing 2-colour synergies without repeated experiences in an environment. I think you typically need to build a cube with your most middling player in mind; it's important to remember that pretty much all of us here are on the next level compared to our drafters, by nature of interrogating the possibilities of format design and curating the formats personally.
    • There is also often a disconnect, for all of us, between what we expect will result from an update to our lists, and the actual outcome. We're all guilty of this at some point or another, and it's just another obstacle to keep in mind.
  • Showcasing decks by drafting them and performing well with them is a good solution to the point above (in my experience), but 3-colour strategies tend to look like a "one-time smart draft move" than potential as a real archetype to pursue, simply because players are so primed to see 2-colour decks as stronger, more cohesive, and easier to draft (regardless of if they almost always splash a third or fourth colour or not). This can pose a problem if your goal is to show off something as niche as a {G}{U}{R} control-combo deck (or whatever you'd classify this as)
  • I think tailoring this idea primarily among 2 colours is where you're going to find a critical mass to make it mass-marketable, and I feel like that's a better direction for the thread imho; exploring engines/archetypes and their interactions across multiple colours, rather than viewing this as some {G}{U}{R} affair. This has its own difficulties, as getting players other than the cube designer to recognize these routes can be especially trying;
    • LftL does weird things and helps {G}{B} decks (reanimator/graveyard shenanigans), {G}{R} decks (Vortex/Wildfire), {G}{U} decks apparently (is Trade Routes a card in our formats?), and {G}{W} decks (Cataclysm/Knight of the Reliquary interactions)
    • Gifts does something in every colour but is EXTREMELY difficult to teach players to use and use effectively without repeated demonstrations, and even then, they will struggle with it as they develop that awareness. As Grillo notes above, what's the point in figuring out Gifts if I can just cast one of the million 1-mana cantrips or, hell, Treasure Cruise?
  • Final major hurdle: people don't see Green as a control colour or Red as much outside of an aggro colour. Teaching them to consider Green as a potential control core is even harder because Green's usual (and usually failed) approach in cube is Super Ramp, which has left players generally, I think, wary of Green, especially since there's significantly less opportunity for removal there (the increasing card advantage tools are helping to shift this perspective rapidly, but there's still more work to be done).

I hope any of that was helpful. In my own personal experience, I will say that Molten Vortex bored me to tears, but if your players like it, by all means, go for it. I also question if Trade Routes actually has legs, though I swear to Avaycn I really want it to; it's just a lot of mana to build your own repeatable draw engine out of, and I think given the choice between Routes and, say, Monastery Siege, people are gonna take the latter to the main deck 9 times out of 10, so again, it's a matter of balancing the engines with the other stuff that's going to be a hurdle.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I don't agree that spending a turn doing nothing describes Loam the way it does a card like Mirari's Wake or Obelisk of Alara: even the most ruthless Powered Cubes can handle a 2 CMC draw spell, and you don't have to cast it each turn. The problem I see is that the desire to support Loam and the decks that want Loam both suggest a tendency to durdle that Loam, unless used in a disciplined way, will only exacerbate. I love the idea of Loam + Trade Routes as much as anyone, but I want a more efficient return on my investment than 2-mana enchantment + Loam + further mana to start cycling lands. Those kinds of shenanigans are more suited to a well-adjusted 'Dragon Cube'/battlecruiser Magic that we should all give more time to.

A pro whom I'm forgetting once said that, in any fair format, Loam eventually emerges as the best draw engine; there's no reason that shouldn't be true for Cube. If I have access to a great draw engine - especially one that's repeatable and readily accessible - I don't want to spend even more mana drawing cards, I want mana-efficient ways to convert those cards into other resources. The absolute best cards for this are Firestorm and Devastating Dreams, which I maintain is the most underrated Cube card out there. Firestorm is especially good in this context as it can act as the big finish on a Loam-powered turn without committing you to anything on future turns. Mox Diamond, which I cut for power level reasons long ago, might be worth it here as a way of offsetting Loam's apparent clunkiness. Alternatively, what if you play Loam as a way of enabling your strongest cards in an aggressive deck that also gives that deck the late-game power it typically lacks? When Loam is guaranteeing a fetchland for Steppe Lynx, triggering prowess on Seeker of the Way, or padding your hand for Wild Mongrel, it looks a lot less durdly.

I do agree that Loam needs institutional support if it's to achieve anything. Jamming it into any Cube or any deck where it's not cared for can only end in failure, and I'd expect to see it rotting in packs a lot in most environments. However, you can support it doing things that I want to do in Cube anyway, and the result is an intricate and entertaining strategy that adds a lot of variety to a Cube.


To build on the OP:





Between Feldon, GDD/Mastery, and the plethora of artifact sac/swappers, red is great at exploiting the fact that it also has some of the best discard outlets! Feldon is a staple of most of our Cubes, and we've all thought about what GDD can do - even something mundane like T3 Cultivate, T4 GDD on Cultivate is sweet - but Mizzix's Mastery is unique and hilarious. Zombify isn't that exciting, but that's because Zombify variants in black are dime-a-dozen. Breath of Life is the same, but just being white gives it a new appeal. The only Zombify for instants/sorceries, in a colour that doesn't get effects like that, is worth a look. Just thinking about cards that would fit in the RUG engine deck, you have: Fact or Fiction/Gifts Ungiven, Dig Through Time, Primal Command, Nissa's Renewal, See the Unwritten, Prophetic Bolt, Volcanic Offering, Master the Way, Bribery, Devastating Dreams/Wildfire, Boom//Bust, Nostalgic Dreams, Time Warp/Walk the Aeons, Time Spiral, and many more. It's amazing when you get to 8 mana and go completely berserk.


I haven't pulled the trigger on the full artifact package yet, and I don't know what kind of commitment is needed to make it work, but I'm hoping it can add an entirely new dimension to red that - thanks to revolving around artifacts - won't be too poisonous. In particular, some of the artifact payoff cards I want to try enable archetypes by themselves. The use of Pyromancer's Goggles has been well-documented, but I want to talk about Alhammarret's Archive for a moment. Yes, you're tapping out for a 5-drop that doesn't affect the board, but Archive wants you to put lifegain in your deck that helps you survive and red has no shortage of good, cheap removal. Once Archive is in play, it's surprisingly easy to draw your deck, shoot your life total through the roof, and do some truly degenerate things. For instance: activate Elixir of Immortality, in response Weld it out for Archive, gain 10, play Magmatic Insight drawing 4 cards, Firestorm for 4+ to clear their entire board. And that's just the beginning! It also gives a combo aspect to white, which doesn't feature in combo-control often. I didn't even register all the possibilities until one of my drafters assembled Archive + Trading Post...







I stumbled across Gauntlet of Might again yesterday, which might marry this strategy and Big Red nicely.


Some test decks:






















 
So many sweet things talked about in this thread, so much to process so little time! :). I really appreciate the call to refocus the approach, and I really like the more "disciplined" approaches being looked at too! I've got so much to mentally sort through, which is incredible.

One little pup that I'm a big fan of, and fits right into the idea of prudent land use:
 
I want to comment on Gifts Ungiven because I've had different views on this card over the years.

If it's looked at strictly as a combo engine, there's a really high ceiling and without pieces it looks pretty limp. And I think people get focused on that and assume it's not a good card if you don't have ways to use all 4 cards. But is that really true? As pure card draw, it matches up poorly to other options at this mana cost. Sure. But that isn't want this card is. It's a 2 for 1 tutor effect. That in my mind is the key here, and why it's much better than people give it credit for.

Just looking at the deck above. I'll go get myself Ojutai's Command, Monastery Mentor, Soulfire Grand Master, and Treasure Cruise. There is no way for my opponent not to hand me amazing cards for one, and depending on what he gives me I might get access to 3 cards. For example, he can't give me Command without soulfire unless he is OK with me getting soulfire anyway. If he gives me treasure cruise, I already have 3 cards to delve it with not including what's already in the yard. Mentor is broken so giving me that is bad. Point is, when you read the card you assume you are getting a bad deal. But when you play the card, it's fairly easy to force either a mistake from your opponent and/or ensure he gives you at least one of the cards you want.

It's just got a lot of play to it beyond being a reanimator/regrowth combo engine card is what I'm trying to say. So if anyone is on the fence, you should try it and see what interesting plays it generates. You might be surprised.
 
Just looking at the deck above. I'll go get myself Ojutai's Command, Monastery Mentor, Soulfire Grand Master, and Treasure Cruise. There is no way for my opponent not to hand me amazing cards for one, and depending on what he gives me I might get access to 3 cards.


Right. Inspiration generally has over a 50% of drawing at least 1 land. Gifts Ungiven not only eliminates that risk(assuming you don't want a land, of course), but the card quality you get is, on average, much higher. If you have 24 cards left in the deck, Inspiration says "draw the 12th and 13th best cards left in your deck"(sometimes better, sometimes worse). Gifts says "draw the 3rd and 4th best cards left in your deck". The significance of course this depends on power level variance of the deck.

But note that if there is only one or two cards in your deck that will save you, Gifts is not getting those cards(unless there's a regrowth in the pile).

Convinced myself, I'm adding Gifts.
 
Right. Inspiration generally has over a 50% of drawing at least 1 land. Gifts Ungiven not only eliminates that risk(assuming you don't want a land, of course), but the card quality you get is, on average, much higher. If you have 24 cards left in the deck, Inspiration says "draw the 12th and 13th best cards left in your deck"(sometimes better, sometimes worse). Gifts says "draw the 3rd and 4th best cards left in your deck". The significance of course this depends on power level variance of the deck.

But note that if there is only one or two cards in your deck that will save you, Gifts is not getting those cards(unless there's a regrowth in the pile).

Convinced myself, I'm adding Gifts.

The other part of the card you can't really quantify is the mind game part of it. Just because you know what the worst two cards you got are does not mean your opponent knows. If there are only two cards that can save you, you can bait a bad choice from your opponent by bluffing you have something you don't. Couple that with just run-of-the-mill play mistakes (which are higher with complex cards like this) and this card does more than WCS 90% of the time. That scenario where Ojutai's command can get back a binned Soulfire might get missed by a sloppy player. And it represents one of many scenarios where synergy will happen without you building your deck around it. It's a really interesting card.
 
So I refocused down to trying to generate an Archtype, a unique control angle for {R}{G} to take that's not "Monsters". I still like the RUG deck, but wanted to build a core that actually stands on it's own before I get back to thinking about cooler things. I do love all the discussion around Gifts though, I think it's a card that takes a little bit of love, but pays it back double. Anyway, the focus of the archetype remained the same:

Recursive value engines that aim to give you the superior mid-late game edge via repeatability of usage. The important thing I wanted to aim at while lost in thought was holistic ways to utilize specifically Life from the Loam, and the unique brand of advantage it gives. Dom uttering my favorite word "efficiency" and showcasing some neato cards was all it took to slap some (more) sense into me. So what I wanted from my {R}{G} control deck, in no particular order (maybe):

Early game value generation and stalling:

The aim is simple. Spend the early turns tossing down efficient, effective, valuable roadblocks. The midgame is where the deck will start to come into it's own, I think

Efficient beaters. I know, that sounds weird... "Aren't you just building GR Monsters?". Well, kinda. But Big bodies play an important second role in a slower deck: completely draining the will/ability of an attacks. Polukranos is particularly nasty as an also-removal-spell. In my testing, one of the most valuable creatures to smack down was Deadbridge Goliath because it was more difficult than normal to remove, and offered a real threat, which bought time. All for buying time. And heck, you can win this way too, but that's far from the olny way to win.

The important thing about these inclusions, in my mind, was that they are already supported/run. The archetype is more of a natural extension/departure from what the colors are doing.

Here the posts from above really started resonating. What archetype do people already try/run, is something that people would know to look for? Obvious answer is obvious:

Honorable mention goes to Languish, which conveniently fits that "4 damage" threshhold. The plain jane way to Wildfire is with mana rocks, and that's possible too. Life from the Loam starts showing it's face here, as a departure from that time-honored method. Turns out symmetrical land destruction + a way to recur your lands is as attractive as it sounds. That was an important nugget of info for me, because intuitive drafting and/or a way to attract people into the deck was something I completely neglected at first.

An abundance of efficient ways to use my lands for other things. Dom got that part nailed right down:

In this way, the deck is achieving goals it already wants to be achieving (removal, bodies and blockers, effcient finishers, draw) through the selective use of the resources granted by Loam and other tools in the deck. I think the addition to the fold of things like yavimaya elder, Nissa, and courser of kruphix is very important because it gives secondary routes for your hand to have more lands than normal in it, which in turn get turned into sweet sweet power.

Recursion. Lots of recursion. This part hasn't changed. I think an environment with a lot of recursion is a good one already, but I also think it really enables this line of thinking:

In my head I've started referring to this conglomerate of ideas as "recursion control". There's just so much power in these sorts of effects, and their effectiveness is maximized by the heavy usage of discard effects, dredging, and early game chump blocking and trading. Running out Nissa for the chump, and then recurring her right before your seventh land drop seems like solid game. Seasons Past seems like a key, key piece of this particular puzzle. It's a really strong hook into a G control deck, an important sign/line. Testing will see if it ends up being too strong, but I'm airing on the side of "it's fine" at the moment. And Grillo begging must mean something.

I think the whole red draw package should exist for this, as does everyone else. Green spells can help too:


Round it all out with some good ol' fashioned burn:


Special Bonus 1-card Engine i thought of while writing this:


The game plan becomes a grindy one worthy of the best Esper mirror match:
1)survive the early game, while generating as much incremental value as possible. This is the value that will eventually give you the edge.
2) stick and maintain valuable blockers/attackers.
3) start cashing your early-game value in on high-impact spells. Wildfire with 2 lands left in hand. Lightning Axe with no reservations. Devastating Dreams for 3, leaving your Courser alive. You name it.
4) utilize the recursion packed into the deck to really start outpacing your opponent. Keeping up with 1 recurred spell is hard enough, but 2, 3, 4? Life from the Loam shines in this role, returning the extra lands you've cashed in and giving you the opening to walk into late game.
5) keep your advantage with your value engines and recursion to close out the game with a beater, or Vortexes to the face.

What do y'all think? I really think we are on to something here, I'm just trying to nail down how to polish it and slot it into an environment as a whole. I think once that can be done effectively, the "cool and techy" plans can happen when the cards want it to. But on the back of solid format planning. Really glad to have so much input, it's been instrumental in grinding down something. I realize that wildfire guides exist from here to the moon, but I really want to open up a real discussion on a non-U control archetype that utilizes the same sort of resource ideas from a fresh angle. Tear it apart and toss words! Y'all the best :D.
 
Seeing as Wildfire tends to be paired with mana rocks, and green happens to be the color of mana ramping, we should probably look hard at the mana ramp.

But I'm not the person to talk about it.o_O

Honorably mention green card selection/control cards:
 
RG Wildfire used to happen a lot in a previous version of my cube. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss is a key card in that, since it ramps and sets your opponent back.

The mana rock RU version I think is more consistent, plus it pairs better for graveyard shenanigans (Delve/reanimator) which I feel is a natural compliment to this deck. Either you ramp into a wildfire/threat. Or you just ramp into something really big. Or you cheat it into play of draw/discard. Delve is super solid here because you have a ton of crap going to the yard. And most of this bleeds into other strategies pretty nicely.
 
So the answer is... Cut all the mana rocks! lol. And make green ramp good & plenty. I've been planning on upping green ramp card count actually.
 
RG Wildfire used to happen a lot in a previous version of my cube. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss is a key card in that, since it ramps and sets your opponent back.

The mana rock RU version I think is more consistent, plus it pairs better for graveyard shenanigans (Delve/reanimator) which I feel is a natural compliment to this deck. Either you ramp into a wildfire/threat. Or you just ramp into something really big. Or you cheat it into play of draw/discard. Delve is super solid here because you have a ton of crap going to the yard. And most of this bleeds into other strategies pretty nicely.
I like the suggestion of the Acid-Moss :). One of the major points of this thread is to try and improve the consistency of the RG control (not ramp necessarily) variant. I think a lot of pieces have appeared that help the cause out a little each. Chief among them Vortex, Pulse, and the Pack Guardian. I aim to steer away from the mana rock version. A couple of my mana rocks are being transitioned to the Baubles because I think in a mana-rock light environment the RG version can really shine.

I do still think that {B} is the third color of choice in the control-centric archetype I'm trying to realize. As you say about delve, Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, the golden fang, and tombstalker all have 5 toughness! Very convenient :)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Really good discussion, a few thoughts:

1. Ramp and Control can easily start to feel like they overlap, since both archetypes have an interest in obtaining mana superiority. Some thought should probably be given to how to create a range within R/G/x that a player will likely be inclined to move around within: sort of a where it makes sense to go down a more traditional G/R monsters deck, though sometimes you might want a more controlling G/R wildfire deck. If you give me too many big dumb monsters, I might be inclined to just push a midrange rush and leave loam at home.

2. Recursive elements are incredibly powerful in cube, and can really format stifle, or swallow up the more niche interactions you are trying to encourage. Just something to keep in mind when tuning.
 
I would love to put Molten Vortex back in but with Loam being the only real engine to power it and me not breaking singleton, it was too difficult to really make it work. want some Assault variant that's just more pushed, or at least more real land recursion engines.

Guardian is interesting and maybe worth testing. I'm not convinced I can justify Pulse though, its so narrow in what it can recur. I never want to spend a card to get back a single land and a creature is like maybe half of what I want to recur if even. Not convinced its really better than Sudden Reclamation and that's on my cuttingboard.
 
I'd love sudden reclamation and 3.5 mana. Uhg.
That could be really cool though. How do we make sudden reclamation good?
 
I have almost all of these exact cards or analogies in my cube! Very cool, and conveniently applies to what I am trying to do :).

The standout card that I'm adding to my core list:

I can see exactly why it's in the list, and it has a 100% parallel to what this archetype wants to be doing: putting a buncha lands everywhere. Love it!
 
These cards all do subtly different things, and it depends if you are trying to max out in drawing lands or feeding the graveyard (or both).

I really like the 'pulses that can get you a land as you can use them early game to smooth out your draws and have lands to reach higher end spells, but it depends on what else you have in your cube to max your lands out. My favourites are:

Mulch - can get you more than one card, and gets any type of land
Satyr Wayfinder - gets any type of land and is a creature to feed creatures in the graveyard and do all the things that creatures do
Vessel of Nascency - flexible to get what you need at the time and feeds the graveyard

I see these more as ways to feed the graveyard, than to put lands in your hand though. If you want that you are better off with Nissa's Pilgrimage and Life From The Loam.

What's good about this strategy is that it intersects in so many different ways, so much so that you can lose track of what you're trying to achieve with the approach, which makes it difficult to pick the right approach.
 
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