General Making Aggro more inclusive

[Grillo_Parlante]

So, after giving it some thought, I think these are possible approaches to mix things up:

1. Small Creature Resource cards (lords, convoke, devour, ect.):hellion eruption, seraph of the masses, hecatomb, mycoloth, bramblesnap
2. Tribal Aggro (humans/vampires/goblins/rebels): bloodline keeper, angelic overseer, mayor of avabruck, stenchskipper
3. Lifegain Aggro: ajani's pridemate, archangel of thune, soul warden
4. Counter Manipulation Aggro (including graft): ion storm, champion of the parish, stromkirk noble, experiment one, rage forger
5. Spells Matter Aggro-Disruption: delver of secrets, burning vengeance, rolling temblor, talrand, sky summoner, lingering souls, guttersnipe

These seem more interesting than turning goblin guide sideways.

Feasibility varies with power level of course.

 

[Jonas]

I like the ideas, will have to consider how it would have to be designed around though, can't have the top of the curve being too powerful for some of those cards to be useful.

 

[CML]

with all these threads popping up (whose theme i agree with) wouldn't it be nice to work on the low power cube

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Ok, super rough draft with power level all over the place, and biased towards my cube. Not saying it has to be like this or that it is even a good idea. I just wanted to lay things out so I could see them. To start out, since a number of the themes overlaped so much, it looks like there are at least five main pools, making up a nucleus of largely overlapping cards that can pair up or be broken apart in a variety of different ways depending on what aggro you want to push. I think some of these pools are fairly adjustable to power level since humans seems to work everywhere. Also, note to self, scavange could probably fit in here somewhere.

Shard Pools
U/G/b/r graft aggro-disruption

Spoiler

W/G/B humans aggro

Spoiler

G/R/B corpsejack ion storm aggro

Spoiler

R/W/B humans aggro

Spoiler

U/R/W Delver Vengeance Aggro Disruption

Spoiler

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Potential Guild Pairings with themes and sub-themes

Izzet
U/R burning vengeance Aggro disruption: flashback spells, delver, burning vengeance, stormkirk noble uses bounce to connect
U/R spells Aggro Disruption: same, but more of a focus on talrand, mystic retrieval and young pyromancer

Azorius
U/W spells Aggro Disruption: similar to U/R spells, but using more spell token makers
U/W humans Aggro Disruption: Running champion with delver and gather the townsfolk

Boros
W/R humans Aggro: champion of the parish, stromkirk noble, mentor of the meek combined with threaten effects to get vampire through plus burn
W/R ion storm Aggro: same but with ion storm

Gruul
G/R ion storm: stormkirk vampire and experiment 1 with ion storm and threaten effects to get vampire in combined with burn.
G/R graft ion storm: same but with graft cards.

orzhov
W/B lifegain aggro: I'm imagining white and black lifelink creatures, ajani's pridemate, champion of the parish and maybe serra ascendant

Rakdos
R/B burning vengeance Aggro: running gravecrawler, stromkirk vampire, threaten effects to open the way for vampire,
R/B ion storm Aggro: same as above, but more focused on ion storm, blade of the bloodchief, stromkirk vampire, and carrion feeder/bloodthrone vampire counters
R/B vampires Aggro: same as above, but less focused on burning vengeance or ion storm, and more focused on bloodline keeper and blade of the bloodchief

Simic
U/G graft: graft + aggro-disruption cards

And than of course, random convoke cards or stuff like hellion eruption

 

[GenericZero]

Potential Guild Pairings with themes and sub-themes

Izzet
U/R burning vengeance Aggro disruption: flashback spells, delver, burning vengeance, stormkirk noble uses bounce to connect
U/R spells Aggro Disruption: same, but more of a focus on talrand, mystic retrieval and young pyromancer

Azorius
U/W spells Aggro Disruption: similar to U/R spells, but using more spell token makers
U/W humans Aggro Disruption: Running champion with delver and gather the townsfolk

Boros
W/R humans Aggro: champion of the parish, stromkirk noble, mentor of the meek combined with threaten effects to get vampire through plus burn
W/R ion storm Aggro: same but with ion storm

Gruul
G/R ion storm: stormkirk vampire and experiment 1 with ion storm and threaten effects to get vampire in combined with burn.
G/R graft ion storm: same but with graft cards.

orzhov
W/B lifegain aggro: I'm imagining white and black lifelink creatures, ajani's pridemate, champion of the parish and maybe serra ascendant

Rakdos
R/B burning vengeance Aggro: running gravecrawler, stromkirk vampire, threaten effects to open the way for vampire,
R/B ion storm Aggro: same as above, but more focused on ion storm, blade of the bloodchief, stromkirk vampire, and carrion feeder/bloodthrone vampire counters
R/B vampires Aggro: same as above, but less focused on burning vengeance or ion storm, and more focused on bloodline keeper and blade of the bloodchief

Simic
U/G graft: graft + aggro-disruption cards

And than of course, random convoke cards or stuff like hellion eruption

I haven't looked at your list, but you don't run many board wipes, do you?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I used to run a bunch, but cut them down to a pair of rolling temblors and oneterminus.

Like I said, I know its biased towards my list, but I figure you have to start somewhere.

 

[CML]

conditional board wipes can be surprisingly mediocre in low-power environments. anger of the gods, for example, is not great in theros. i'd keep moving in that direction

 

[GenericZero]

I still like to avoid things like Anger of the Gods no matter where my power is at unless I had it REALLY high. I guess I'll have to test if it gets noticeably worse in lower-powered cubes, but I still prefer either Magmaquake or Chain Reaction as my red board wipe of choice.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I use temblor mostly because of the CC, which gives the champion and stromkirk decks a chance to get threatening, and also the flashback and inability to hit flyers, which works well in the burning vengeance decks.

Thats interesting about anger of the gods getting worse. I would have never expected that.

 

[GenericZero]

I use temblor mostly because of the CC, which gives the champion and stromkirk decks a chance to get threatening, and also the flashback and inability to hit flyers, which works well in the burning vengeance decks.

Thats interesting about anger of the gods getting worse. I would have never expected that.

I also try to always have at least one black board wipe. It is usually strictly worse than whatever white ones I feel like running, but it feels like it should be there so players don't HAVE to lean on white or red for a board wipe. Blue also MIGHT get this charming fellow since it seems at just about the right power level. You can play around it easily enough and if you don't then the punishment seems fair. How do other people feel about it?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What black sweepers do you run? I would probably be inclined to run drown in sorrow, but the double black kind of turns me off. Ultimately, I really only want to have one card that unequivocally wipes the board.

Aetherspouts looks skill testing in a fun way.

 

[CML]

I still like to avoid things like Anger of the Gods no matter where my power is at unless I had it REALLY high. I guess I'll have to test if it gets noticeably worse in lower-powered cubes, but I still prefer either Magmaquake or Chain Reaction as my red board wipe of choice.

those are less conditional, though -- "kill everything" for 4 is so much better than "kill ... some things?" for 3 unless the mana difference matters a ton, which is the case in constructed but usually not in limited and probably not here

 

[GenericZero]

those are less conditional, though -- "kill everything" for 4 is so much better than "kill ... some things?" for 3 unless the mana difference matters a ton, which is the case in constructed but usually not in limited and probably not here

I admit that chain is probably too good for what he's trying to do and rolling temblor DOES seem like a good fit. But it bugs me how often quake is seemingly overlooked. It feels VERY fair, it is instant speed, and if you have a planeswalker-fetish friend, it will keep him or her in check.

 

[ahadabans]

What black sweepers do you run? I would probably be inclined to run drown in sorrow, but the double black kind of turns me off. Ultimately, I really only want to have one card that unequivocally wipes the board.

Aetherspouts looks skill testing in a fun way.

What about Decree of Pain? It's expensive, but has two modes (Drown in Sorrow effect + cycle for 5 and game winning wrath for 8). Clearly there are better options for sweepers from a power level perspective, but I like where this one sits personally.

 

[GenericZero]

What about Decree of Pain? It's expensive, but has two modes (Drown in Sorrow effect + cycle for 5 and game winning wrath for 8). Clearly there are better options for sweepers from a power level perspective, but I like where this one sits personally.

I've been back and forth on black board wipes. I thought Black Sun's Zenith seemed fine, but I didn't like the shuffling part. I used Consume the Meek, and that's the one I probably go back to the most but I still don't like it. I would run Decree of Pain, but is it too expensive for its main mode?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

This card is awesome!

 

[GenericZero]

This card is awesome!

I liked it for a while, but it seems too strong. Taking 3 damage to wipe basically everything off the board that matters just didn't seem punishing enough for a black board wipe that only costs 3. I might retry it, but so far consume the meek does its job just a BIT better. It still has its own flaws, though...

 

[Chris Taylor]

I liked it for a while, but it seems too strong. Taking 3 damage to wipe basically everything off the board that matters just didn't seem punishing enough for a black board wipe that only costs 3. I might retry it, but so far consume the meek does its job just a BIT better. It still has its own flaws, though...

Do remember how much it hurts though. Nobody played reciprocate for that very reason, but it is a real cost

Also: Since it's an additional cost, super blowouts with pump spells

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Do remember how much it hurts though. Nobody played reciprocate for that very reason, but it is a real cost

Also: Since it's an additional cost, super blowouts with pump spells

Imagine playing Remand in response

 

[GenericZero]

I think Toxic Deluge may be worth giving a second chance. We'll see how it goes...

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I completly forgot decree of pain existed. Does it play out like reach 8 mana and win the game though? Not sure how I feel about that.

A lot of these are really hard to evaluate. Toxic deluge shows up at a really interesting point on the curve against my humans deck, since if you are on the draw and that is your only disruption, you will have to pay four life to kill champion of the parish off the nut draw (turn 1 champion, turn 2 gather the townsfolk, turn 3 any other human), leaving you at seven life on your turn 3. I don't like the fact that its capable of killing everything though. I cut black sun's zenith because I felt it was too good, and deluge is generally black sun's zenith with less restrictions.

Consume the meek looks really interesting though. It reminds me of silence the believers in that its CC results in all sorts of sequencing limitations, but which are made up somewhat by merit of being an instant, allowing for greater opportunity at card advantage.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I completly forgot decree of pain existed. Does it play out like reach 8 mana and win the game though? Not sure how I feel about that.

A lot of these are really hard to evaluate. Toxic deluge shows up at a really interesting point on the curve against my humans deck, since if you are on the draw and that is your only disruption, you will have to pay four life to kill champion of the parish off the nut draw (turn 1 champion, turn 2 gather the townsfolk, turn 3 any other human), leaving you at seven life on your turn 3. I don't like the fact that its capable of killing everything though. I cut black sun's zenith because I felt it was too good, and deluge is generally black sun's zenith with less restrictions.

Consume the meek looks really interesting though. It reminds me of silence the believers in that its CC results in all sorts of sequencing limitations, but which are made up somewhat by merit of being an instant, allowing for greater opportunity at card advantage.

decree: It really doesnt. Wrath is nice, but 8 mana is gristlebrand/craterhoof territory.

Black Sun's Zenith too good? Really? I cut it for being too bad and added another damnnation. (Try this by the way, it's awesome)
I've never seen an earthquake variant with so much bad synergy. Sweepers + persist guy? nombo. Sweeper + big creature? Nombo, now it's a 1/1. General Use sweeper? Nice 4 mana infest bro. Hellrider, take 6

Consume was fine when I tried it. I think a few too many people had it rotting in their hands while dying to vengevine for me to think it was really that great

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

hmmm...I might have to revist Black sun. I think it may have been the victim of the general sweeper purge a few weeks ago, when a bunch of sweepers showed up in the card pool and ruined the games. Now that I think of it though, I don't think it was actually cast.

Anyways, since everyone is complaining about green (myself included), here is something I had in mind for any inclusive green archetype in a 360.

One Drops




Two Drops




Three Drops




Four Drops




Five Drops


Support



The idea here, is that its an aggro deck that grows into a fatty midrange deck. Graft and evolve provide a way to gain evasion, reach, and trample to break through any board stalls. Flashback bounce and fathom mage provide a source of late game card advantage. Than there are a number of build arounds that can be tacked on. Brainstorm is also a sweet combat trick. Probably would need to cut down on some of the cards in the simic guild section.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I love it! I'm really into the idea of making +1/+1 counters more prevalent since its an interesting resource, and its been used quite a lot in different mechanics. This seems to be pretty heavy in gold colors though, are you considering making the entire simic gold section support this theme or is this mostly sketches? I looked into +1/+1 counter stuff earlier today after reading in this thread and found some other cards that sort of play into the aggro->midrange (which sounds like a super fun and interactive way to make an aggro-drafter still have some play after turn 3).