This set is so sweet. Herald of the Pantheon might be enough to push enchantments far enough to work in my drafts more often. Until now, you'd have to luck into a sweet Abzan build just to have enough playables. Now, you can curve this right into Blossoms and keep the good times rolling.
Sets [ORI] Magic Origins Spoilers
- Thread starter anotak
- Start date
Yeah, I have not been one to buy boxes but I feel like drafting a ton this summer is going to be something to look forward to. Definetilly hoping to score a ton of boosters during prerelease!
Yeah, my thoughts exactly - I might even double up on Herald of the Pantheon and Eidolon of Blossoms, to make sure this theme is a thing. Abzan seems like the natural place to extend the theme beyond green - white already has lots of Pacifism and Oblivion Ring-type cards, while black seems to have the most high impact not-just-enchantments, like Doomwake Giant and Whip of Erebos.
Yup. I just built in an enchantress theme into Abzan. It's a perfect fit IMO. Tailor made for that color combination with cards most cubes are already running (requiring minimal fringe card support). Song of the Dryads BTW is completely insane in this deck.
My 2 cents from testing… I wouldn't try to over support this. You really don't need to. I went full tilt with my first version and if you try and build a deck completely reliant on enchantments, you end up with an inconsistent unplayable pile of jank. Cube isn't constructed and I often forget that. Eidolon of Blossoms and Doomwake Giant are both very playable with no other support (in my cube they are… YMMV based on power level). Add in a half dozen enchantments (things you'd play anyway - O-ring, etc), and those two cards sky rocket in value. You honestly don't need anything else in that deck to make it very powerful.
Just today I was testing this very deck and it started with me curving with aggressive threats (completely unrelated to enchantress). I over extended into a Damnation, but an Eidolon of Blossoms and two enchantments later, and I won the game anyway. If that aggressive two drop I had argothian enchantress instead, I would have not won that game. No early pressure means my opponents holds damnation longer and I lose everything with no way to recover.
Not suggesting that Herald of the Panteon isn't a great fit (or that it wouldn't help with an aggressive start). But he's more "all-in" on the theme. What happens when you only have a handful of enchantments? He's just a bear on his own. Is that worth playing over something that does more for you now just so you can make Eidolon better later? Maybe and maybe not. I'm not sure I'm feeling that honestly.
These types of things may also be group dependent. How focused are your builds? If you draft with 8 people, maybe you guys wind up with more consistent and focused builds than our group does. But that isn't how drafts tend to go here. Here you build a deck with synergies, but in a best out of three match it is rare (in my experience anyway) when you win the game the same way twice even if you made a focused deck (unless it's ultra generic like TurnDudesSideways.dec). So I personally have moved away from over focusing on single win conditions.
Again, I'm not necessarily saying Herald is too single minded. He may not be and I'm going to test him in this deck too. But it's worth keeping in mind that it's easy to see all this compatibility between pieces and then forget that unless you are going to run multiple copies, you won't be drawing them more than once every couple games. And even with multiple copies, can you grab them all?
Sorry, rambling a bit there. But hope it's helpful. I've specifically been working on adding this archetype and just wanted to share my own evolution of thought on it. I think you can over support it and wind up with something less viable in the process. Cheers.
Being "just a bear" is fine. He may be a little narrower than the rest, but like many other two power creatures for two with upside, I suspect part of his appeal is that he'll spend plenty of time getting into the red zone himself.
Out of those, I think he resembles Young Pyromancer the most, and that's a card a lot of folks here have doubled up on, to great results.
Out of those, I think he resembles Young Pyromancer the most, and that's a card a lot of folks here have doubled up on, to great results.
The difference though is that Young Pyromancer generates threats. Herald doesn't. He just makes your enchantment cards cost less and gain you 1 life when you play them. In a dedicated build, this could be enough to completely justify running him. But how many enchantments do you need in order to get enough value to run this over Fauna Shaman or Lotus Cobra?
Just playing devil's advocate here. I'm going to test this card because it certainly has potential.
Just playing devil's advocate here. I'm going to test this card because it certainly has potential.
"Just" gaining life is a historically underrated ability on cards that Already Do Things - see Sphinx's Revelation vs. Blue Sun's Zenith, Obstinate Baloth vs. Brooding Saurian, even Lone Missionary vs. generic white two drop. You don't need Herald to save you a lot of mana nor gain you a lot of life before you get your two mana's worth.
The nice part about narrower cards is that you're not running them "over" your better cards, like Lotus Cobra; it's that while every green drafter could use a Cobra, and will pick him highly because of that, Herald of the Pantheon should fall to the drafter who actually wants him. This is what I mean when I say he resembles Young Pyromancer, though I certainly agree with you that producing actual threats gives Pyro a higher upside.
The nice part about narrower cards is that you're not running them "over" your better cards, like Lotus Cobra; it's that while every green drafter could use a Cobra, and will pick him highly because of that, Herald of the Pantheon should fall to the drafter who actually wants him. This is what I mean when I say he resembles Young Pyromancer, though I certainly agree with you that producing actual threats gives Pyro a higher upside.
You have a good point on how the draft will likely play. This card you can wheel. And if it does wheel, that's a good indicator that this archetype is open. And it will work well in that specific deck (but not be useless as filler in a non-dedicated deck).
OK. I think you've made me a little more optimistic here. Looking forward to testing it.
OK. I think you've made me a little more optimistic here. Looking forward to testing it.
As much as I love the enchantment deck and enjoy drafting around Eidolon of Blossoms, the enchantment deck doesn't need a fancy mana dork, it doesn't need small amounts of life gain and doesn't really need more bears. I would love more playable enchantments like Blossoms and Doomwake Giant but that archetype needs more enchantments that reward you for playing other enchantments, and needs more card advantage. I think I'll pass and wait until the next block that prints enchantment creatures (Which I REALLY wish were evergreen like artifact creatures).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Well this looks great. Also notice that the powerband between commons, uncommons, rares and mythics seems to be much closer, so this shouldn't be a bomb dominated limited format.
Whirler Rogue is fantastic, and just want you guys need to artifically increase your artifact count. Ghirapur Gearcrafter is also quite good for that.
These cards aren't really powerful enough where you can run them in some of the higher end formats, but should fit comfortably in a good portion of the cubes here. They seem about right in a format where master splicer, vital splicer, and blade splicer are reasonable picks, which if fine if you are just looking to increase artifact count.
Herald of the Pantheon looks fantastic, though again, I doubt it will make the cut in a more power max focused environment. Those sorts of familiar effects are incredibly good as an alternate form of ramp, and there is probably some sweet combo it enables.
Whirler Rogue is fantastic, and just want you guys need to artifically increase your artifact count. Ghirapur Gearcrafter is also quite good for that.
These cards aren't really powerful enough where you can run them in some of the higher end formats, but should fit comfortably in a good portion of the cubes here. They seem about right in a format where master splicer, vital splicer, and blade splicer are reasonable picks, which if fine if you are just looking to increase artifact count.
Herald of the Pantheon looks fantastic, though again, I doubt it will make the cut in a more power max focused environment. Those sorts of familiar effects are incredibly good as an alternate form of ramp, and there is probably some sweet combo it enables.
Colors, art, creature types all got my hopes up, but that text is a mad letdown. It's a house efficiency-wise but it's just french vanilla at the end of the day.
Also:
The issue I've had with the archetype is actually setting up the engine. Most of the pieces are in the mid-game (Eidolon at 4, Doomwake 5), and it's tough to keep up early if your opponent is especially aggressive. You can't really durdle that hard against aggro with a good curve (unless you plop down a Courser), and if you overcommit then you can get wrecked by a timely wrath. Being able to speed up your plays by a turn is pretty crucial. I wish there were more two mana enchantments that came to mind. Following this up with two plays on T3 would be sweet.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
You can find enough anti-aggro cards to shore up Constellation there I think (Nyx-Fleece Ram comes to mind); for it to be properly viable, it has to be the 'biggest' thing you can be doing in the format. Constellation doesn't pressure your opponent too much (the midrange versions obv, not creatures + suits) and whatever staggered advantage you can set up gets undone very easily by Sphinx's Revelation, Karn/Ugin, Cyclonic Rift, Wildfire, whatever
the rares have been pretty interesting so far, i'm excited for this as a draft experience. i bet we get some really cool cards when they dump the uncommons
How good is the Menace ability? I've only had experience with using Stormblood Berserker which just runs roughshod on curve with removal in hand. This card is good enough to trade for two cards most of the time (counting that ETB trigger), but will it actually get into the red zone that often? Seems like a fine follow up play to a boardwipe though. It is a warrior to boot, which is semi relevant. I'm just imagining scenarios where I can break this in my Cube, how can I curve into it for max value. White Siege --> Winnower? Seems gross. Trade with up to 3 cards (barring removal in hand for opponent) I love the flavor, art and unique ability on this card.
I'm definitely trying it out just because it's sweet. Probably not the best 5 for black but screw it, it's my cube!
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Ugh black 5s have been so good lately.
I'm currently running Sidisi, Undead Visir, Puppeteer Clique, and Shriekmaw, and while sidisi has been sweet, I'm currently looking to add that 2/2 Abadans is complaining about, and while Winnower is no shriekmaw I love that effect
I'm currently running Sidisi, Undead Visir, Puppeteer Clique, and Shriekmaw, and while sidisi has been sweet, I'm currently looking to add that 2/2 Abadans is complaining about, and while Winnower is no shriekmaw I love that effect
This set is so sweet though. There's a huge number of cards I'm interested in cubing. Just looking over spoilers thus far I'm looking at:
More Prowess dudes is always good, a black three that plays interesting with graveyard strategies AND recursive aggro, some fun red cards, and a greaen moosebearlion hybrid. Digging this set and all the new support that's being added to existing archetypes. It's a real nice expansion for themes/archetypes I've been trying to support.
I'm kind of interested in new Jace as well, strictly as a Merfolk Looter that turns into something more, but I already have two other Jaces in the Cube (Wallet Sculptor + Beleren). Three is way too much. This is a fun set though, I think it's going to be a really sweet draft format as well. UR Wopterthopers.dec seems like fun.
More Prowess dudes is always good, a black three that plays interesting with graveyard strategies AND recursive aggro, some fun red cards, and a greaen moosebearlion hybrid. Digging this set and all the new support that's being added to existing archetypes. It's a real nice expansion for themes/archetypes I've been trying to support.
I'm kind of interested in new Jace as well, strictly as a Merfolk Looter that turns into something more, but I already have two other Jaces in the Cube (Wallet Sculptor + Beleren). Three is way too much. This is a fun set though, I think it's going to be a really sweet draft format as well. UR Wopterthopers.dec seems like fun.
Menace can be pretty insane. In my cube, Pyreheart Wolf is a stone-cold bomb that is frequently hate drafted. The effect is something easy to underestimate I think, and Winnower is almost a 3-for-1 (etb + 2 blocks). I wasn't gonna cube her at first, but I'm thinking I just might after I run the math on how much of the field she can kill.
Yeah, I need to run down my list and see all the relevant threats that she can take down. I've heard good things about Pyreheart, haven't used it yet though. However, I feel like part of the appeal is being able to curve it into bigger threats and apply that offensive pressure. You can't really do that with a 5 drop. This one feels more like a finisher to mop up a light board in the late game, seems fun topping off the curve for an attritiony deck or something controlling. I just really love that ETB effect, it's so unique.
I'm actually not crazy about Gilt-Leaf Winnower in cube - she misses a lot of giant green fatties that really need killing - despite being in love with the flavour. Whereas something like Shriekmaw hits a huge portion of the available targets in cube - particularly because, as a black drafter by definition, you'll have scooped up some number of invalid targets - I feel like Winnower is going to miss just enough to drive you crazy.
Yeah, this is the only issue I've seen after viewing my Cube. A few green fatties like Prime Time and Poly seem like they'd be terrible to go up against. It does work elsewhere though, destroys a lot of White 4+ drops. I'm running 2 Shriekmaws atm the moment, I think I'll swap one out and see how good Winnower is if I can pick one up at prerelease.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Not if you Distortion Strike them first!
Okay thats a little niche but I still think the card is good. I like that it's beatdown mode is scarier but less inevitable than shriekmaws too
Gilt-Leaf hits 42.5% of my creatures currently, and my Origins update will see that number go up. I rather like the fair body, so I'm tempted to give it a try; these do-more creatures are always easy curve-toppers, and I'm not convinced you'll run into too many situations where it being unable to trigger its ETB effect will be too frustrating, given that Menace helps it swing in fairly. I may just test it.
were you guys this pumped for
Not really comparable