Hathaway needs help (cutting down to 405)

I have been tinkering with my cube for several months now. It started as a budget cube cobbled together out of commons and uncommons and junk I had in shoe boxes. After the first few drafts, my friends began donating cards and trade binders and shock duals and generally being awesome.

This is the current list:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/28489

Yesterday a friend paid an old debt with PayPal, so I immediately spent the found money on an order at CoolStuff. If you check the cube blog, you will see the cards I have in the mail to me.

Here's where I want your insight. I want to cut the list back down to 405. I decided the easiest way to do that was to add all of the inbound cards to the cube tutor list and ask the community to help me make cuts.

Thanks in advance for your help.

EDIT:

I decided to add some of my design ideas to give you a better idea of what I'm trying to do. I want to keep all the colors around 60% creatures. I want decks to use the attack step to win. I want games to feel like interactive struggles instead of blowouts. I want aggro strategies to have a fair chance to 3-0 through the midrange decks that normally populate cubes.

EDIT AGAIN: I posted a comment below where I do a better job of explaining my creative goals and listing the theory cube list. (http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/39758)
 
Here's a specific question:

Should I look at removing the top tier removal? Things like swords to plowshares and path to exile and lightning bolt. I wonder if my threats are good enough to warrant good removal. Does that make sense?

I'm not running titans or eldrazi or other cards that say "remove this or lose." So is it possible that my one-mana removal is too good?

I'm running a few drafts this weekend with the current list and will come back and post the decks and their records.
 
A couple things I can see that would get your size down in a hurry:
-Take your gold cards down from 6/guild to 5/guild, or even 4/guild. Gold cards are the hardest to cast, so they'll be less painful cuts in terms of the way your cube drafts and plays. For a 400 cube, 4-5 cards per guild is probably about right.
-Even out your mono sections to about 55 per color. That'll cut you down by 7 more cards.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Alright, so a quick run through of cards that I am not a fan of or I feel don't belong:
White:

There are too many WW costs in this section, one of these probably has to go for something that costs 1W.


There isn't that much support for Relic Seeker (only 5 equips) or Fabled Hero (only the 2 combats tricks you see there in white + Valorous Stance). The combat tricks seem really bad next to StP and PoE. I would prefer something that gave first strike just to assure a trade for card parity. May need to cut the other two instead for more tricks. Not too sure on the power level of the environment yet.


Not too sure how well those first two cards go. Seem a little too under powered. Heck, I cut the riftwatcher from my peasant cube because he was under performing, I don't know how well he would do here.
Mirror Entity is a little too much of a house compared to the rest of your white section. Might want to keep an eye on him.

Blue:
So your design philosophy in the first post mentioned that you want each colour to be 60% creatures and win through combat. What I am seeing here is the usual spell heavy blue. It is immune to this philosophy? Because it may be hard to give blue that many decent creatures and have it keep up with the other colours. But I must commend on the double Ninja of the Deep Hours. Love that guy way too much.


These seem like the weak links in your creature section. Never sure where the raptor should go and with so few creatures in blue it will never seem to go into a deck it belongs and always ends up mediocre. The chronicler is just soooo slow. I like Sturmgeist better, and even it looks terrible on the surface.


I don't know if you need this much singleton breaking on these. Especially counterspell. You have plenty of other options for a 2CMC counter spell which your list is filled with that it isn't required. Pushed people into heavy blue more than it needs to. The triple brainstorm I am not sold on. Double should be fine, but that is just my opinion.


Forgot to mention this in white for Cataclysm but some people find these unfun/too powerful. Unsure how they fare in your cube but something to take note of.

Ugh, that took longer than I thought it would. I'll get to other colours later. Hopefully that should give you some feedback to start with anyway.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm not sure you really have the proper support for ninja, who wants to be buddies with cheap evasive ETB creatures. Bone shredder would be ideal.

I started doing the same thing Kirblinx was doing, but realized there were a lot of cards I was skeptical of, so starting with just white as well:




These are cards that I think are either not very good, overly narrow, or clunky. Most of your white creatures are really bad either because they are savannah lion clones, or because they are {W}{W} to cast.




These are cards that may be too oppressive, or difficult to play around. You'll want to push the power spectrum at some points, and these cards clearly represent the ceiling of your white section, but you'll have to keep an eye on them and make a judgment call.

The first three cards are really difficult to play around due to their cost. Its a little confusing to me, because you have three very strong unconditional removal pieces (and none of your threats really justify that) while at the same time you have sun lance and pacifism. Its just a pretty big disparity in the power level of removal.

There was a lot of overlap there with Kirblinx's post, which probably means you want to restructure the white section a bit, in particular the creatures. I drafted a R/B aggro deck, but it looks like your white based aggro has some issues with the basic creatures it has to choose from.
 
I had actually written a reply for you sometime a few days ago, and never posted it? Anyway, here goes:

Personal Opinions Incoming! Remember: if advice is not helpful for your format, feel free to ignore it!

White:
Elite Vanguard - this card is very unexciting and you already have plenty of 1-drops
Accorder Paladin - rarely is this good enough; he tends to get blocked early and aggressively, giving little reward for playing him over even an instant-speed anthem
Precinct Captain - kinda meh imo and you have a lot of {W}{W} 2-drops, which need to be closely watched.
Spectral Procession - a fine card, but passable
Defiant Strike / Mortal's Ardor - mostly just air; you need more heroics to make this worthwhile, and more heroics are generally not a good idea outside of themed cubes. I wouldn't pick these or maindeck them in almost any situation.
Fabled Hero - does he have enough triggers?

Blue:
Ludevic’s Test Subject - your removal suite outclasses these level-up types.
Ninja of the Deep Hours - a fun card, but is it worth it in such a powerful format? (rarely)
Aeon Chronicler - way too slow
Devastation Tide - does this ever do anything fun?
Upheaval - powerful, but how often is it built around appropriately? are those decks fun?
Dismiss - too slow for my tastes

Re: your counterspell suite; I think you have a great counterspell set-up, but I'd personally cut Disdainful Stroke for another option; cards that cost more than 3cmc are already hard enough to justify including without a spell literally designed to hose big spells. It's not bad, it's just kinda skill-less.

Black:
Gravecrawler - are there enough zombies to make this pickable? It seems like the person who picks one can simply wait for the others to wheel to them, which isn't a good thing. It looks to be frequently outclassed by Bloodsoaked Champion in general. But that's just my own tastes.
Wight of Precinct Six - seems underpowered without more mill support
Gatekeeper of Malakir - super hard to cast but I guess if you're pushing mono-Black devo, it's okay.
Kothophed, Soul Hoarder - not really my cuppa; super slow
Duress - I don't really find this powerful enough to be worth a slot imho
Grasp of Darkness - you have a decision to make: really efficient removal (Go for the Throat), or these kinds. Again, I advise you to monitor closely your supply of 2- and 3-drop spells that have double-CC. Personally, I'd cut the Grasp for something more conditional and less {B}{B}.
Reassembling Skeleton - this card is bad, sorry

note on black removal: seems a bit removal-light compared to white. Is this deliberate?

Red:
Sulfuric Vortex - this is probably the best card in your environment, or close to it. Personally, I'd cut it for something a little more demanding, like Mogis, God of Slaughter or Guttersnipe; Vortex is such a boring, skill-less way to win, and I'm never satisfied to lose against it or win with it.

Green:
Young Wolf - No thanks
Restore - is this actually a card that does anything but recycle a fetch land?
Hornet Nest - this is a really mean card. I don't care for it, because it's kinda just a big middle finger to red.
Indrik Stomphowler - do people pick it tho?
All Sun's Dawn - do people pick it tho?

Colourless/Multicoloured:
Obelisk of Grixis - outclassed by Darksteel Ingot and Chromatic Lantern; why run a weaker stone when both of those are already kinda not high demand?
Absorb - I like it but it's kinda whatever
Supreme Verdict - do people pick it tho?
Duskmantle Seer - do people pick it tho?
Undermine - patently bad
Murderous Redcap - do you need two?
Terminate - why would anyone ever want this when there's already plenty of good mono-c removal? I'd pass unless you dramatically weaken your mono-c removal
Burning-Tree Emissary - she's kinda just air
Unmake - see: Swords to Plowshares???? why is this in here????
Putrid Leech - do people pick it tho?
Putrefy - Not really necessary with your artifact section looking pretty fair and you having so much better removal
Grisly Salvage - you don't seem to have enough graveyard shenanigans to make this worthwhile
Dreg Mangler - kinda bad
Mystic Snake - usually not worth it
Nivix Cyclops - a fun card but idk why anyone would really pick it
Electrolyze - I'm not really a fan of these generic value cards in the multicolour section personally
Lightning Helix - I'm not really a fan of these generic value cards in the multicolour section personally
Assemble the Legion - pretty powerful imo and not super fun to play against
Abzan Charm - this seems pretty bad here
Cruel Ultimatum - does it ever get cast?

Sidenote about cuts you've made so far: Rakdos Cackler and Dryad Militant are great cards that both fit in two different coloured aggro decks. Remember that hybrid cards aren't really "multicolour", and deserve special respect for enabling 2 different colours to do something. I personally would keep them both in, but that's just me.
 
I want to begin by saying "thank you" for all of the suggestions.

I think it would help me to write all of this down, so that I know what it is that I want from the cube.

It began as a box of junk commons and uncommons to have something to play for fun. I made a point originally of keeping the games about creature combat and forcing decks to deal with threats 1:1. I didn't want blowouts. I wanted people to draft interactive two-color decks. Then my friends started to donate lots of awesome cards and I feel like I lost my way.

Here is what I want from the cube:

1. Size. Somewhere between 360-405. I don't often get to draft with 8 players: six-players is our normal. I want the cube to be consistent, but not repetitive and boring. I definitely don't want 540 cards again though.

2. Deck design. My vision is for decks to win through the combat step, though I also want to support a "weird" theme or two. I feel like I need to keep the creature count up around 60% to make this work. Is that accurate?

3. Themes. I want my cube to support several themes, and I feel like it is now more of a pile of cards. This is confusing to me because I feel like I added things to allow Birthing Pod and the Recursive Black Aggro deck. Themes that I want to support:

Human tribal. I want any easy way to tie together several two-color aggro plans.
Birthing Pod value things.
Recursive Black Aggro.
UB/UW control. This is why I put in Upheaval.
RG/RB aggro.
White-based aggro.
UR spells.
GB dredge/delve.
Some form of ramp deck. I want "fair" finishers though.
Prowess.
Wildfire. (In theory. I'm not sure how to support it to be honest.)
Reanimator. I see this as more of a deck that sneaks value into play than discarding 8cmc bombs and putting them into play on turn two.
Constellation looks fun. I recently put in several of the enchantment creatures. Can this be pushed through minimal cards?

4. Cube philosophy. I don't want people to do unfair things. No channel into eldrazi. No tinker into blightsteel colossus. I am however interested in using Tinker like a value reanimator strategy. Again, no real idea how to do this, and not sure I want to push it until I feel like the other main themes are solid.

Basically, I want the cube to feel like a real environment where drafters can have a plan. I want signals to matter, and I think that means cutting the size down to the minimum and maybe focusing on less themes. I said from day one that I didn't want it to be midrange wonderland, and I worry that is where it's heading because I don't know how to focus it better.

Here is a link to a new list that is theory only, but where I'm trying to use the advice of everyone here.

EXPERIMENTAL CUBE LIST: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/39758

Thanks again for the help.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I made a copy of your list and gave it a pretty ruthless edit, which you can see here. Took it down to 207 pretty easily.

I think what would really help would be if you (/drum roll) listed out the guilds and brainstormed a theme and sub them for each of them. The cube really seemed to lack focus, and listing out guild pairings helps conceptualize the boundries that prevent the cube from feeling like a pile of cards.

Some of the cards that I took out where cards that I felt were too strong, too weak, too redundent, or too conditional. The latter catagory was the largest, and a number of the cards that came out might be fine, but either were lacking in effective density, incentive cards, or both.

The devotion theme is a good example of that. Ostensibly it might be a fine theme, and arguably you had a lot of {B}{B} or {B}{B}{B} cards but only three devotion payoff cards in the entire cube, and one of those was red. So I cut all of that.

I applied this to individual cards as well, Frantic Search may be fine, but there was no real reanimation or untap theme, so I cut it. There was no strategy based around value weenie reanimation, so I dropped unearth. And there were a lot of cards like these, cards that I imagined you saw in other lists, but lack the support to actually be good. Some of those cards can be added back in, but they will need to do so with a more concrete theme and the support cards (effect density and payoff cards) to justify them. There was also a lot of variance in power level, and specifically power level of removal, so I tried to trim that down to cards that walk a happy middle until you figure that out.

I cut the birthing pods for now, because they were taking up three slots, and I feel like if you are going to make that type of dedication to a build around card, you want to first be sure that its going to be played in a wide varity of decks, and make sure that the support is there for it.

I ripped out the entire multi-color section. It felt like it was all over the place, and badly wanted more context as to what it should be from the color sections.

The lands were an absolute mess, and still are. I'm guessing there was some budget considerations going into how that was distributed? I tried to trim it down to a neat x2 shock, x2 fetch to start with, but we're still missing cards.

Your black section felt very strange. You had gone all in on cheap one drops that can't block, which warps the entire section around that. I really don't like gravecrawler and carrion feeder in smaller lists for that reason, because them and their support just ends up taking over the creature section of black, which the spell section still awkwardly leans control. Champion, on the other hand, requires no support, and melds easily into every other color.

Cube is very creature based, like most limited formats, so you don't need to worry about whether you win on the combat step or not. That will work itself out.
 
Thanks for all of your effort in working on the list. I'm really taken back that you spent the time to completely gut the list and ask very thoughtful questions. I had never stopped to consider the idea that my cube felt unfocused because I never spent the time to focus the guilds. I just assumed that because I was "borrowing" neat-looking ideas that it would all work out. Here is what I want to do with each color pair. I'm not too interested in pursuing any three-color groups right now except for using Jeskai Ascendancy in a prowess theme. I'm not a big fan of planeswalkers for the most part. I like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver because of the exile mechanic. A dear friend gave me his pack fresh Kytheon, Hero of Akros so that's staying. Anyway...

Allied guilds:

WU: Fish style aggro/Some form of tap out control
UB: Classic slow control (counter/kill everything, draw cards, win with bomb)/Mill
BR: Aggro with sacrifice theme
RG: Big aggro/Fires of Yavimaya/Ramp into monsters
GW: Ramp/Tokens/Anthems

Enemy guilds:

WB: Humans fish style aggro/Mill and Wrath control
BG: Graveyard/Dredge/Constellation
GU: Threshold effects/Flashback
UR: Spells matter/Prowess triggers
RW: Aggro/Tokens

The things I want to try out that spring to mind are:

I want milling to be a way to win, but I'm not sure how to make it fair or fun. Enchantments like Sphinx's Tutelage and Curse of the Bloody Tome?
I want to see some reanimation and flashback spells and threshold to fight against good mill strategies.
I want to have enough ETB triggers to make Ninja of the Deep Hours and Birthing Pod fun and competitive.
I am happy with the removal being toned down to match the threats. I'm happy with white having enchantment and return to library removal along side instant speed token spells. I'm fine with black removal being BB or sorcery speed for the most part.
How do I balance that with my strong desire to see aggro decks be worth drafting? I hate seeing everyone try to draft midrange value decks. (And here I am wanting Birthing Pod to take up three spots. Lol.)
Could Wildfire be a viable strategy for Rx decks without ruining the format with mana artifacts?
I really want to use Pia and Kiran Nalaar in some way.
I'm interested in prowess as a theme for URW. Maybe there is overlap with tokens and flashback and enchantments as removal?

You are absolutely correct about the lands and budget concerns. Almost all of the lands listed have been given to me by my drafters/friends. I traded for some to help even out the colors, and I'm not sure exactly how many is a good total for 360.

I feel like maybe I want to do too many things. Can each guild support two styles of deck? Is there enough overlap?

Thanks again for all of your help.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This looks fine, you're doing a great job. The creatures in the white section look much more playable, whic is important. You'll be making what feels like a million alterations to the format as you play it more and more, so this looks pretty normal.

I would suggest stromkirk noble, kor skyfisher, and look at a bunch of the o-ring varients from the new set. I would also look heavy at the delve threats.

Right now, your delvers are slated to go into U/B control/midrange decks, and pretty much only U/B control/midrange decks, because they will want help from vault and mystical tutor to flip, which is fine, but means you should probably go down to 1 copy.

If you are going give two slots over to them, you want more TOL manipulation. I don't think brainstorm is going to be good in this format, but you can still look at ponder, preordain, serum visions, and maybe scry lands. If you think those cards will be too strong there is always telling time, impulse and anticipate. It would also be nice to run condescend, perhaps even breaking singleton there. If you think your format will be slower, you could run foresee. If you want delver to go into red, perhaps this would be the reason to go double magma jet and run bolt of keranos alongside it? Soldevi excavations and Thassa, god of the sea are other possibilities.

For the graveyard themes, they will feel isolated very quickly unless you give players a reasonable reasons to risk milling a key threat. Usually that ends up being removal, as most players will happly take that risk if it means impacting the board state now. Darkblast is very good at this, harvest pyre is good, and you already have ghastly demise.

A lot of the pure mill cards will be bad in isolation. You want mill cards that do something that matters, but happen to do so by milling. Ashiok, nightmare weaver should be here, and nephalia drownyard could work. I can assure you that despite your drafters saying they want mill, they will eventually figure out that they are spending mana to do nothing, and those pure mill cards won't be drafted. Ashiok is the only proper mill card that is really cubeable in my experience.
 
I've added more cards. I decided to proxy up the enemy fetch lands to get a better feel for how the cube will look with them. Another idea I was toying with was dropping to 1 each of the enemy fetches and going up to 3 each of the shock duals. I'm closing in on the 360 mark and want to get your suggestions for more ways to help out flashback and threshold themes. I also want to drop Worldknit in and take another look at maybe running a second Perilous Myr and/or Epochrasite.
 
Let me just be totally honest with you:

I would love to help you develop this cube, but you have got to figure out what you want out of it first!

For reference: you made this thread looking to cut to 405 from 455ish+; you're now down to 321 (as of this posting) and looking to plug holes! I know (as does everyone else here) how crazy the cube-making process can be, but you have to have some direction. "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything." You will get your best help here asking clear questions and giving us clear ideas of what you want. We all think we're really clever and have a lot of ideas that are pretty convincing, but if you don't know what you want coming into this, you're going to be pulled into a muddy format that is cool, but not quite awesome.

Some thoughts that jump out at me:

Allied guilds:
WU: Fish style aggro/Some form of tap out control
UB: Classic slow control (counter/kill everything, draw cards, win with bomb)/Mill
BR: Aggro with sacrifice theme
RG: Big aggro/Fires of Yavimaya/Ramp into monsters
GW: Ramp/Tokens/Anthems
Enemy guilds:
WB: Humans fish style aggro/Mill and Wrath control
BG: Graveyard/Dredge/Constellation
GU: Threshold effects/Flashback
UR: Spells matter/Prowess triggers
RW: Aggro/Tokens
This is an alright starting direction, but you need to define the finer lines. How does "tap-out control" differ from "slow control" or "mill and wrath control"? Further: why put mill in WB, when UB is typically the mill pairing? For UG: What "Threshold effects" are you looking to use? Are any of them any good? How weak will your environ have to be for Threshold to be a mechanic you can justify using?

What I would suggest, if you're really committed to building this cube up right and making a format you LOVE, is to go through and find key cards you like and cards that look cool to build around, and collect them together. ie, "Here are 8 white cards I love, and here are 2 W/B cards I'd like to pair together and see if I could build into a theme, and I really like these 3 B/G cards, so I want them to be viable..." One of the hardest parts of building a good environ is actually accepting that the concept will not generate the desired execution unless you work at it very hard.

An example from my own experience: As much as I love, love, love the design of Wydwen, the Biting Gale, I did not craft a format that was friendly to her, and so she never really got played. It made me sad, but she had to be cut - the concept ("wow, cool, a hard-to-kill UB control finisher that looks super rad!") did not fit the pair's general execution ("UB usually wants to be a controlling midrange deck that builds up value early and centers the mid-game around key disruptive plays and hard hits. This card just isn't doing anything for that style of play, is it? Darn. Cutting time.").

So, consider this angle going forward: isolate the cards you LOVE (for me, that's spicy nostalgia pieces like Quirion Dryad and Emeria Angel) and craft an environ that can allow them to be playable and fun.

To address some of your questions... (numbered for my convenience)

The things I want to try out that spring to mind are:
1. I want milling to be a way to win, but I'm not sure how to make it fair or fun. Enchantments like Sphinx's Tutelage and Curse of the Bloody Tome?

Real talk: mill is rarely "fair or fun" unless your play group believes it to be "fair and fun". For mill over here, I have Dakra Mystic, Hedron Crab, Mindshrieker, Jace Beleren, Talent of the Telepath, Nightveil Specter, Lantern of Insight, Codex Shredder, Altar of Dementia, Mesmeric Orb, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, and Oona, Queen of the Fae. I also have a ULD and Nephalia Drownyard is in there, naturally. The deck can come together pretty well even with just a few of the pieces for us; one memorable game in particular led to me ultimating Garruk Wildspeaker and sacrificing a Kitchen Finks and a bunch of buffed tokens from an Awakening Zone to Altar of Dementia for the win when my opponent was going to finish me off the following turn. That said, many of these tools are things some playgroups will be unhappy about. Personally, we are amused by mill, but note that it's a very playgroup-dependent style of play.

2. I want to see some reanimation and flashback spells and threshold to fight against good mill strategies.

I think in general Threshold is outclassed; what cards specifically were you thinking of? At any rate, planting a sub-theme in your cube as a "mill punisher" isn't really necessary, because mill is hard to make work as it is, and as such, it's not a deck you'll see super often, or need to plan against by planting cards that make mill's already-hard-win-con even harder. I do love flashback spells for their immense value added over regular cards, but you don't need to think of them as a mill responder.

3. I want to have enough ETB triggers to make Ninja of the Deep Hours and Birthing Pod fun and competitive.

I think that, fundamentally, Ninja only works in really low-powered environs, and I've never been excited enough about Birthing Pod in my own very fast, interactive format to want to try it out, so I can't give you much advice here.

4. I am happy with the removal being toned down to match the threats. I'm happy with white having enchantment and return to library removal along side instant speed token spells. I'm fine with black removal being BB or sorcery speed for the most part.

How does this notion of instant-speed white removal map with your prior expressed desired for "tap-out control"? Regardless of that: why make black stick to mostly sorcery speed and hard-to-cast spells if white is going to get instant speed? I think this balance can work, for sure, but you have to be careful, and I think you need to really dwell on white, black, red, and blue answers carefully to make a good format. Remember that spells that have two (or more!) mana symbols in them are very limiting in deckbuilding; making most of black's removal {B}{B} just means that your decks that go black will often be forced to be mostly mono-black with splashes, limiting the diversity of your format drastically.

5. How do I balance that with my strong desire to see aggro decks be worth drafting? I hate seeing everyone try to draft midrange value decks. (And here I am wanting Birthing Pod to take up three spots. Lol.)

imho aggro is hard to make worth drafting because it isn't as "exciting" as midrange value beasts. So, to bait players into aggro, you need to monitor your Wall-style creatures and your life gain very carefully, and avoid huge value swings like Thragtusk if you can. Aggro needs to be able to be a rewarding playstyle that can transition into the early-midgame without too much pain; things that dump value on the board like Thragtusk or Wall of Omens will drastically impede aggro's viability. That said, plentiful removal is good for aggro, too - they like clearing a path!


6. Could Wildfire be a viable strategy for Rx decks without ruining the format with mana artifacts?

Wildfire never worked over here even running two copies and gallons of stones. I love the deck, and it's great fun in bullshitty powermax cubes, but it was never happening over here, so I can't give you any better advice here other than: you will really need mana stones to ever make it worth drafting, and if you're trying to avoid the stones, know that Wildfire will probably not work.

7. I really want to use Pia and Kiran Nalaar in some way.

Do so! It's not a hard card to throw in. :)

8. I'm interested in prowess as a theme for URW. Maybe there is overlap with tokens and flashback and enchantments as removal?

Well, naturally - the more noncreature spells, the better for Prowess. It's not something that needs any more push than cheap noncreature effects, though, imo.

I feel like maybe I want to do too many things. Can each guild support two styles of deck? Is there enough overlap?

My opinion on each guild running multiple themes is a firm no. Some guilds are friendly to multiple styles, for sure, but most are not; they will either be rather generic decks that do a function in a unique way (ie aggro, midrange, control), or they will be thematically linked decks that can pursue a built-in angle that is uniquely cool to them (ie UG super-ramp, BR lockout, GW lands-matter, WB attrition, GR +1/+1 counters, etc). Packing in multiple themes for each guild can get messy - focus on one each, and look for overlaps for now. I still don't have an explicit WR theme, so don't stress about it; instead just enjoy the natural lovemaking those odd pairs create (WR control is gorgeoussss) and hope that they bear out a specific idea later (for the record, WR does have cool thematic angles to play with - humans aggro and tokens blend well with burn and +1/+1 counters and Volt Charge, for example - but it's not a special "thing" all its own, which is something I'd like to see).

I've added more cards. I decided to proxy up the enemy fetch lands to get a better feel for how the cube will look with them. Another idea I was toying with was dropping to 1 each of the enemy fetches and going up to 3 each of the shock duals. I'm closing in on the 360 mark and want to get your suggestions for more ways to help out flashback and threshold themes. I also want to drop Worldknit in and take another look at maybe running a second Perilous Myr and/or Epochrasite.

Worldknit scares me, but I pretty much never have more than 3 drafters, so maybe it's not too oppressive with a larger group (does allow obscene 5c goodstuff decks with practically no work, though). I think triple shocks is probably a mistake, too; I'm currently double fetch, double shock, single temple, and it's been great. Triple shocks sounds like a sea of 4c goodstuff to me which is not my taste and tends to make colour pair themes dissolve, but to each their own!
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I disagree on wildfire. I think the turbo wildfire of Kai's Worlds is probably a bad thing for your cube, but as a red control card that synergizes with manarocks you already want, I think it fills a nice role.

If it's something you want, here's a few key things:
  1. Azorius Signet is a waaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher pick than everflowing chalice is for some reason, even if that drafter already has 6 nonbasics. Take advantage of this by adding in more colorless rocks the wildfire drafter might be able to wheel
  2. In that same vein, Coalition Relic is insanely strong, but few control decks want Thran Dynamo or Gilded Lotus. I've had a lot of success with a Cantripping Darksteel Ingot to emulate an artifact mana cultivate, but sadly no such card exists in proper magic. There's also a bit of overlap if you've got the kind of ramp deck that is aiming for Kozilek, rather than Avenger of Zendikar
  3. 5+ toughness creatures are way less necessary than you might think. A lot of the time wildfire on it's own will do the trick, leaving you with 2-3 mana in a deck with draw spells and your aggro opponent on 1-2 lands. That being said, don't forget to sprinkle some counterplay cards in other colors with 5+ toughness (Polukranos and Baneslayer are fun to cast anyhow) so that the deck doesn't just autopilot itself.
I'd also like to add that I've never seen a Worldkint deck do better than 1-2 :p

Prowess is...difficult. There's not quite the density of proper creatures for the theme at the moment, since none of the 1 power prowess cards actually perform all that well.
Here's some great cards if it's something you want to try:



Contrary to Popular Belief, I don't actually think Monastery Swiftspear is that great or necessary for the deck, given the ammount of work that needs to go in for it to equal the damage potential of Jackal Pup. Something like Stromkirk Noble works much better when you want to time key disruptive spells to put your opponent on the back foot.

You'll also notice there's some definite holes in that list, IE: basically no blue creatures (and I'm even not fully convinced Delver is good). As well, Mentor and Exemplars are part of a more midrangey version of the deck I'm not sure is fully realized yet.

I wrote a really in depth thing over on Laz's cube threat a while back, I'll see if I can go find it at link to it properly.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Found it:
I love prowess so much man :D

Here's my experience with the deck so far:
  • Seeker is great, and he's decent in other decks but not so good you need to first pick him like finks. I run 2 and a custom version @450, so 2 is probably fine?
  • Young Pyromancer is similarly great, though he puts more demands on your deckbuilding. A lot of random removal spells and so forth happen to be enchantments (Pacifism, ORing, Journey to nowhere, let alone random stuff like seal of fire) so keep him in mind when you decide which of those to include (There's instant sorcery versions for some, and I love me some Valorous Stance anyways, but the wording downgrade on Council's Judgement is real bad). He's totally fine in a random list, so keep that in mind. I just don't like it when my drafters are disappointed to open removal :p
  • Abbot of Keral Keep is basically perfect, and works wonderfully in any deck. I would not be disappointed if I ran 14 copies of that card, so include as many as you want.
  • Shu Yun is a weird one, kind of plays like Geist of St Traft if he was fair. He's mana intensive and fragile, but the payoff is huge. (Hell he hits harder than geist if he's on).
  • Monastery Mentor is a sweet one, though he really gets out of hand quickly. I've had a few games where it combines with Unearth to make me try really hard not to die, but I think that's a good thing. I like the card, though running more than one might be overkill, since sometimes he does nothing.
  • All the 1 power prowess guys I've had bigger problems with (Swiftspear, Jeskai Elder, Jeskai Sage, Elusive Spellfist, etc). As we've seen, basically anything with 1 power just doesn't affect the board, so these creatures essentially need prowess to be on before they count as creatures. Swiftspear is probably unnecessary anyways, since I've found a prowess deck is perfectly happy with savannah lions or what have you, where the reverse is not true.
  • Soulblade Djinn and Strongarm Monk are overkill, as you state. this deck doesn't often have a huge amount of threats in play (Unless young pyromancer is shitting all over your opponent, in which case congrats on your match win). The curve topper I actually do like is Ojutai Exemplars, which plays well nicely in pure control decks as well.
  • Runechanter's Pike is also sweet, and can occasionally find its way into other decks (Mostly big piles of burn, but not always). I've got 2, I'm not sure I need the second one?
  • Rebound is super great for this deck, and basically every cheap rebound card from Rise is worth cubing (I dunno, I haven't tried Surreal Memoir myself, though consuming vapors is still great) and all the cards from DTK are too expensive (Artful Maneuver/Ojutai's Breath could be decent). Distortion Strike is a good card, trust me.
Lastly, a Rant:
Please don't run delver of secrets. Assuming a deck of 16 lands, 4 delvers and 20 (!!!) spells, that's a coinflip, and that deck would be horrible! Even if you can push that percentage up with scrys and brainstorms, what's the endgame? Is a delver that flips 70% of the time good? Because A) I'm not sure you can push it that high without some drastic errata, and B) each game where it flips turn 1 is still miserable.
Assuming customs are out of the question, run Phantasmal Bear in delver's place, it's the least shit of the horrible trifecta (Delver/Bear/cloudfin raptor). If you're amenable though, just make something that wizards would never make (Here's mine), since I've found that if you try and make an aggressive 1 drop that "feels blue" it ends up having these huge variances or is way too dependent on the number of spells cast, or other problems that would have us turning back to savannah lions in other colors.

DEWMxdn.png
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think young pyro, lorescale coatl, quirion dryad, myth realized, and mentor are the attractive cards for some sort of spells matters deck. Abbot and seeker are solid, but more value cards, while distortion strike and emerge unscathed are support cards healthy for most formats. I'll second swiftspear bring hard to get going.

CT is right that there are kind of two different decks though, one being more of a white midrange deck, and the other variants being more tempo focused, which would make for an interesting discussion in itself.

You can run a theme and sub theme in one color pairing. Usually a sub-theme ends up being a slightly different strategic axis compared to the main theme, and the benefit of it is that drafters will have some sandbox space to explore in the respective theme. Sometimes, however, a color pair will be so deep that it can support two full fledged themes. My GU section, for example, supports a tempo deck, and two varients of big mana decks: ramp-control and straight ramp.

Don't worry too much about getting everything right off the bat--this dosen't have to be a cube perfect--and going through the process will be beneficial in itself. You'll get a better idea of what you and your drafters like and be able to grow into your own style.

The main benefit of laying out themes and sub themes is just that it gets you thinking critically about what structure you want. A lot of this may be ultimately discarded or revamped down the line, but at least you are laying out a road map. Some guilds are also notoriously difficult to design for, while others have tremendous depth, and you've probably already encountered that when trying to lay out a theme and sub theme. This way you get a heads up on those potential issues, rather than finishing the cube and realizing that gruul isn't a color combination, while U/B can support three themes. In retail draft, imbalance in color depth is a concern, in cube imbalance in guild depth is a concern. But again, don't pressure yourself too much: this is more a thought experiment to help mitigate those issues as much as you can at this stage.

I feel a little guilty about the mill themes, as I suspect you looked over the innistrad theme cube where mill->counter mill was one of my early experiments with meta relationships. I would discard that meta relationship for your cube. Its very specialized and only a narrow band of cards work well with it, and you will have to aggressively singleton break, possibly going below 360, to make it work. You can run graveyard themes, but they will have to be more pretty generic, which is why I suggested looking at delve cards.
 
Thanks again for all of the feedback everyone. I'm coming to realize that this process is longer and more difficult than I originally thought.

Here's where I'm at on the current design. I was really excited to put a mill theme in the cube, but after pouring over cards and considering feedback I can see that it will be non-interactive, the cards won't be fought over by other decks, and it pushed me down the path of forcing weird themes in other colors. I really think the current list is so much better than the old list, and I'm going to keep tightening up the guild themes.

I've been looking at the list and have decided that I'm going to cut the remaining two planeswalkers. I'm not a big fan of them in general, and was only keeping the last two in because of sentimental reasons.

I'm about to cut a bunch of the cards I feel like I forced in and re-assess. I'm going to proxy up what I'm missing and run a few drafts. Will let you know how it goes. Please keep the critiques coming. You've been awesome.
 
Once again, I want to thank everyone here for your great insight and thoughtful analysis. I feel like my cube list has came quite a long way in a short time thanks to all of the help and support of the guys here.

I want to take the time to explain what I want from my cube because I appreciate all of the suggestions and I want to help you to help me.

Cube Tutor list: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/39758

General theory and design guidelines:

360 card limit. I dabbled with bigger lists in the past for two reasons. Pride and novelty. I wanted a cube big enough for 12 drafters because my text list and Facebook group for drafts is almost 20 people. The issue is that my local cube events are generally 6 players.

No Planeswalkers. I don't enjoy them. They tend to take over games and confuse my newer drafters.

I want to stress the tension between aggro and control. I'm not a huge fan of a format full of midrange value piles. (I say this while also wanting Birthing Pod decks.)

One major theme for each guild. Obviously, I want to support both aggro and control so there will be a kind of dual theme in some guilds. Bear with me on this as I'm trying to focus and refine the themes now.

WU: Solid aggro plan. Good sweepers for control decks.
UB: Midrange - value stealing cards. Some big haymakers to takeover and finish.
BR: Very dense web of sacrifice effects and disruptive aggression.
RG: Fires. Monsters. Big guys.
GW: Efficient creatures from turn one into large finishers.

WB: The dreaded midrange deck. Value spells.
BG: Constellation. Some graveyard interaction.
GU: Ramp and tempo cards.
UR: Spells matter. Prowess.
RW: Hard to say, though I can see Boros aggro, a midrange list, and RW control in the cube.

In addition to the guilds, I am trying to actively support a few themes/build-arounds/decks that are off the beaten path.

"Fair" Tinker. No "I win right now" plays. I'm more interested in sneaking interesting things into play and working with the new thopter guys in Origins.

Wildfire. Not the oppressive turbo-fires off of fast mana, but more of a red control deck.

Constellation. I'm not sure if this is even a real theme, as I wasn't playing during Theros block. I'm enjoying looking at all of the interesting enchantment interactions in WBG. This may or may not survive long if no one drafts it.

Worldknit. Some of my drafters are enamored with this card. I don't think it's that great, but I like the idea of taking all of the lands you see and then trying to force a 4c goodstuff deck. I'm interested in seeing it do dumb things and then lose in the finals. Stay tuned.

Besides those themes, I want to work in Gravecrawlers and Birthing Pods. Mostly based on getting excited by seeing them in cubes here and wanting to have another set of neat build-around cards. I'm not going to put them in until I get a dozen drafts in with the current cube and make sure everything else is working. I do not want to stumble back into the trap of having a pile of cards instead of a cube.

My chief concern is that I don't want to simply add cards because I see them in other lists. I want each card in the list to be relevant in several strategies. I want players to fight over cards and colors, and I'm willing to pull cards that aren't being taken highly.
 

Laz

Developer
In addition to the guilds, I am trying to actively support a few themes/build-arounds/decks that are off the beaten path.

"Fair" Tinker. No "I win right now" plays. I'm more interested in sneaking interesting things into play and working with the new thopter guys in Origins.

Wildfire. Not the oppressive turbo-fires off of fast mana, but more of a red control deck.

Constellation. I'm not sure if this is even a real theme, as I wasn't playing during Theros block. I'm enjoying looking at all of the interesting enchantment interactions in WBG. This may or may not survive long if no one drafts it.

Worldknit. Some of my drafters are enamored with this card. I don't think it's that great, but I like the idea of taking all of the lands you see and then trying to force a 4c goodstuff deck. I'm interested in seeing it do dumb things and then lose in the finals. Stay tuned.

I have spent quite a bit of time tinkering with Tinker, and I still not convinced it is an fantastic path to go down. In theory Tinker creates an interesting draft subgame, and acts as a powerful and versatile tutor for a range of effects. In reality, most decks have 1-2 cards that are kind of worth getting, and the flexibility of the card is never really showcased. While this may be entirely due to my targets, Tinker often acted as a method by which slower decks would access controlling cards ahead of schedule. They didn't use it to turn a corner, to start trying to win the game, rather just used it to lock down the game a little bit more. Trading a mana rock for a Gilded Lotus to ramp and fix (which was neat, and I did see on hell of a turn 3 play of 'tap Mindstone and 2 lands for Tinker, get Gilded Lotus, land, Wrath') and a turn 3 Staff of Nin is a neat trick for a control deck, but I am not sure it is worth both the deck building contortions and often the card investment for these outcomes.
I don't think I ever saw someone Tinker away an expended Tangle Wire, or grab a Phyrexian Revoker (Duplicant however was a common target) or a Nevinyrral's Disk (too slow) or any of the super cool plays I had in mind. The Masticores were also hugely underwhelming.
I have been trying to think of Tinker as closer to a reanimation spell, but due to the artifact restriction, the range of targets are limited, and a lot of the strong ones come too close to 'Ok, I win', or are simply cards I don't really want in my environment (I am looking at you Wurmcoil Engine...)

I hate to take the wind out of your sails, and I am interested in where you choose to go with it, but in my experience it has been a little underwhelming. If you are looking at my thread for inspiration, I would probably be advising that you can push the targets a little harder than I did. Possibly something like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion was where I wanted to be. Bosh has been ok, but is quite a removal check. When you get to untap with him, he represents so much damage, and feels kind of similar to Kalonian Hydra, with that said, that effect is much more tolerable at 8 mana instead of 5. I suppose you could argue he is more synergistic, in that he can fling other artifacts or the like, but that is like pointing out that Kalonian Hydra pitches to Force of Will.

On the note you make about Wildfire, you will not be able to support Tinker without a density of mana-rocks. It is really hard to get the artifact density, especially for the decks that want to play Tinker without running them. I am not sure if that is what you mean by 'fast mana' but just be aware. I like Wildfire as an archetype, and I like that if you include the mana rocks it really has a few distinct forms.
- Play big dudes that survive Wildfire (second colour normally green, but can be white)
- Mana-rock Wildfire (usually UR)
- Big-rampy Wildfire (RG)
Sometimes the first and last overlap a little, and that is fine. Another variant is possibly Phasing-Wildfire, which I have never seen explored, and could use Ghostway like effects (note for future readers: Legion's Initiative). It is super narrow, and probably not mana efficient, but it also combos with Wraths, so there might be something to it. Probably too unreliable, though with the density of ETB effects in many cubes, those cards are decent value. Also, yet another way for James to go infinite with Eternal Witness.

I think you really need to outline your incentive cards for Constellation and work out how you want to support it across colours. I am confident that it can be done, but I suspect it will eat into a lot of room for other themes.

Worldknit, sure if you want. There has been a lot of discussion around this card, and the general consensus seems to be 'Fun, but it ruins drafts, partly because it completely messes up signalling, but mostly because it hoovers up all of the fixing.'
 
Greetings. I am bumping this thread to the top in order to get more eyes on the ongoing process. My current list can be found here:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/39758

I have been enjoying the drafts lately, but it has been dominated by aggressive red decks and very slow UW decks. There seems to be no middle. I recently added about 40 cards in an effort to help out the three strategies that I want to see flourish, those being Ramp / Wildfire (see also Upheaval) / Reanimation decks.

It is my intention to cut back down to 360. Would you help me out by mocking my poor choices and suggesting cards to cut, as well as mentioning any cards I could add?

Budget is only a concern in that I have one set of enemy color fetch lands, and barring a good source for Chinese "proxies" I don't wish to dump another $180 into another set.

Anyway, thanks for taking a look.
 
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