Yeah actually it's pretty telling that they didn't make this a blind submission process. How hard would that really have been to implement? The only way you leave the names attached to the cubes is if that knowledge is part of your decision.
General The Cube Contest
- Thread starter Meltyman
- Start date
So... I just got back from a bit of a leave of absence (due to various life/medical things.) I'm back in it now, though, and I thought I'd start by taking a look at the Cube Contest finalists.
...I haven't read the entire thread because it's quite long, but am I beating a dead horse when I say that the finalists are a combination of dull and underwhelming? The color-shifted cube is a neat idea, but it seems like the only one with a hint of promise.
The Klug cube in particular is very surprising to me. I really don't like to make conjectures based on little to no evidence, but it seems terribly uninspired. That, combined with the fact that Eric Klug has close ties to members of the MTGO staff (who may be officiating this very contest) makes things a bit... awkward. I really don't know what to think. The other cubes are just a mix of the very suggestions that they had laid out as examples of things to try, which is just as weird. I mean, isn't the point to promote ideas that the design team didn't think of? This looks more like a hack job, tbh.
Note: I did not wind up submitting a cube for the contest. I was halfway through developing it when the event that took me off the site for a while happened. Sad as it is, I can safely say that my comments have little bias, considering that I did not have an entry.
...I haven't read the entire thread because it's quite long, but am I beating a dead horse when I say that the finalists are a combination of dull and underwhelming? The color-shifted cube is a neat idea, but it seems like the only one with a hint of promise.
The Klug cube in particular is very surprising to me. I really don't like to make conjectures based on little to no evidence, but it seems terribly uninspired. That, combined with the fact that Eric Klug has close ties to members of the MTGO staff (who may be officiating this very contest) makes things a bit... awkward. I really don't know what to think. The other cubes are just a mix of the very suggestions that they had laid out as examples of things to try, which is just as weird. I mean, isn't the point to promote ideas that the design team didn't think of? This looks more like a hack job, tbh.
Note: I did not wind up submitting a cube for the contest. I was halfway through developing it when the event that took me off the site for a while happened. Sad as it is, I can safely say that my comments have little bias, considering that I did not have an entry.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Welcome back, hope things are better. Your post is a nice resumé of the general consensus. I'll add that they are holding a vote over twitter with one of the contestants having over 5000 followers.
Since they're going to reward the winner, they kinda have to know who he/she is, don't they? They could have withheld the names, but then they would have had to write their own intro blurbs in such a way that it would not be obvious who they picked.
Things, happily have gotten much better for me. I hope to get back into being active here. Thanks for asking! Unfortunately, due to the issue I haven't been able to cube much (or at all) over the past month or so, so I'll need a bit of time to ramp back up.
On the subject of the cube contest, I'm just more disappointed than infuriated. I was really hoping for more out of it. That's pretty much it.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Credit where credit's due, I was actually pleasantly surprised by their help desk. They deducted the yearly fee for the old D&D Insider account, which wasn't showing on my account page. I just assumed it got terminated, but apparently not. They refunded the money however, without fuss, and within a week of my complaint. So, it's not all bad
Credit where credit's due, I was actually pleasantly surprised by their help desk. They deducted the yearly fee for the old D&D Insider account, which wasn't showing on my account page. I just assumed it got terminated, but apparently not. They refunded the money however, without fuss, and within a week of my complaint. So, it's not all bad
I guess I don't have a ton of data points on interacting with them but the fact that I'm still waiting on hearing back about my prize and generally getting very slow responses to emails is infuriating. I get loads of email in my job and respond to all the external ones even if just to confirm that their message was received. I think this is just a pet peeve of mine though? Everybody in my family is very email-respondy.
In class right now but I won't be in work tomorrow so I'll work on typing up post about my cube for the cube blog section of the site tonight/tomorrow.
Hello there!
I am the designer of the Twisted Color Pie cube. I had trouble finding a US cube-related forum (outside of mtgs cube forum section), I found you on google page two, never been that far, now I feel like I am some kind of crazy explorer. o_O
But I am happy to end up there as reading the 9 pages of the topic proves me that your community clearly know their stuff about cube design. I share your concerns about Klug's list : having donate, civic saber, somber overguard, Ishan's shade and jace 2 in the same cube can't lead to a good draft experience.
My submission get an overall better reception (europeans where more enthusiastic than US players on it, though), but I am aware that there is concerns too and I would be interested in discussing them with your community (my cube designer community is very experienced in 360 classic cube design but never really worked on 540 card cubes or weird cube theme like my submission).
One of you raised the fact that 50 fixing lands was clearly not enough. I did the ratio, I have 9,8% of fixing lands in it. I don't expect many 3+ colors strategy in a typical 8 decks metagame as unlike the legacy cube, it doesn't really support PW control, pod, esper/grixis control or 4/5c good stuff. WB can splash searing meditation and sultai graveyard is real but otherwise 3 color decks should be rare so I think that the ratio is okay. I have 11,1% of fixing lands in my regular 360 cube which support much more 3+ color strategy and the tension of manafixing is real but never prevent people from drafting ambitious manabase.
That being said I am open to feedback from players with more experience on 540 cards list than me, if I end up winning the contest I would be able to increase the number of lands.
If there's other weakness on my list that you can spot, I would be happy to discuss them and fix what can be fixed if needed. As the list is almost untested, it must have some real problem and I can't find and correct them alone just with theorical thinking.
About the fact that it's "untested", I think that it was almost impossible to design a 540 list that offers a new gameplay and respect all Wizards criteria in three weeks while doing much testing on it. So the lists had to be either "new" and match the criteria while being untested, or pre-existant and somehow classic with a worse respect of the criteria (whith more test on it). The second path was picked by most players and that's probably why people felt that the selected cubes where not new enough.
In case you want to take a loot on the list, here's the visual spoiler of the updated version (with Kaladesh) : http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/62240
I am the designer of the Twisted Color Pie cube. I had trouble finding a US cube-related forum (outside of mtgs cube forum section), I found you on google page two, never been that far, now I feel like I am some kind of crazy explorer. o_O
But I am happy to end up there as reading the 9 pages of the topic proves me that your community clearly know their stuff about cube design. I share your concerns about Klug's list : having donate, civic saber, somber overguard, Ishan's shade and jace 2 in the same cube can't lead to a good draft experience.
My submission get an overall better reception (europeans where more enthusiastic than US players on it, though), but I am aware that there is concerns too and I would be interested in discussing them with your community (my cube designer community is very experienced in 360 classic cube design but never really worked on 540 card cubes or weird cube theme like my submission).
One of you raised the fact that 50 fixing lands was clearly not enough. I did the ratio, I have 9,8% of fixing lands in it. I don't expect many 3+ colors strategy in a typical 8 decks metagame as unlike the legacy cube, it doesn't really support PW control, pod, esper/grixis control or 4/5c good stuff. WB can splash searing meditation and sultai graveyard is real but otherwise 3 color decks should be rare so I think that the ratio is okay. I have 11,1% of fixing lands in my regular 360 cube which support much more 3+ color strategy and the tension of manafixing is real but never prevent people from drafting ambitious manabase.
That being said I am open to feedback from players with more experience on 540 cards list than me, if I end up winning the contest I would be able to increase the number of lands.
If there's other weakness on my list that you can spot, I would be happy to discuss them and fix what can be fixed if needed. As the list is almost untested, it must have some real problem and I can't find and correct them alone just with theorical thinking.
About the fact that it's "untested", I think that it was almost impossible to design a 540 list that offers a new gameplay and respect all Wizards criteria in three weeks while doing much testing on it. So the lists had to be either "new" and match the criteria while being untested, or pre-existant and somehow classic with a worse respect of the criteria (whith more test on it). The second path was picked by most players and that's probably why people felt that the selected cubes where not new enough.
In case you want to take a loot on the list, here's the visual spoiler of the updated version (with Kaladesh) : http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/62240
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
What did you search for? When I google "mtg cube forum" we're the fourth hit. Also, welcome!
I think in larger cubes you have to be a bit more generous with your fixing, not more stingy. This is because the cards that end up in the draft pool are not distributed evenly. In other words, if you run, say, five fixers per guild, you might end up with four
fixers and only one fixer. Frank Karsten has written an excellent article on mana bases over on CFB (link), a highly recommended read. To hit 1 mana of a certain color on turn 1 you need 10 sources, that's what you two color Aggro decks need for at least one of their colors. To consistently hit 2 mana of a certain color by turn 4 you need 12 sources! Really, the amount of fixing you put in determines the number of normal games your players can play, and it can't hurt to overshoot by a little, to account for uneven distributions and greedy players. I do think it's desirable to get the number up to somewhere in the 11-12% range.
I think in larger cubes you have to be a bit more generous with your fixing, not more stingy. This is because the cards that end up in the draft pool are not distributed evenly. In other words, if you run, say, five fixers per guild, you might end up with four
Or, alternatively:
Decrease the density of dual lands in your cube in favor of evolving wilds, mana confluences and other universal fixers. They are immune to distribution problems like the one Onderzeeboot describes. Furthermore, mana confluence is much more in line with the power level of the spells in your cube than Tundra is. Not only are "on color fixers" quite scarce in your cube, but the ABU duals are among the most powerful cards in your cube. This can lead to some pretty frustrating swingyness.
I've only drafted it twice, but So far I like what's going on in this cube. White reanimation is a fun direction that I've recently started exploring. vengeful dreams is a spicy white discard outlet that you may not have considered. Also features angel focused art so it's extra on theme.
I really appreciate the novelty in a lot of the choices you've made, and my only major concern is this:
You have a very wide power band.
There are a fair number of cards in this cube that would likely never see a sideboard and more that are doomed to see nothing else. I wouldn't expect people to try and draft a synergistic martyr of sands deck when they could be goodstuffing around with the likes of sylvan library,underground sea and Gideon Jura. The drafts and the games are going to be dominated by the most powerful cards in the list and all of the interesting design work you've done is going to be drowned out.
I think what this cube needs is a good old fashioned Harrison Bergeron treatment.
Remove the upper echelon of powerful cards in the cube and replace them with highly synergistic and/or cross archetype cards towards the low-middle end of your power band. Repeat if symptoms persist.
I really feel your pain on the playtesting bottleneck. There's only so much theorycrafting you can do before you just have to sleeve it up and find out if the enchantment deck actually does anything.
Hey, welcome. We've actually cubed together before, in a pub with Dan Royde and a bunch of people. You drafted this dope UB tempo thing, with lots of disruption and an unkillable Wydwen, the Biting Gale.
So.... hi!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I've got some more points for you Magicovore, if you'll endulge.
- I agree with Mad Prophet on Gideon Jura, that card is just busted. The other Gideon you run, on the other hand, is one of the most underwhelming planeswalkers in existence. Why not Ajani Goldmane, when lifegain is a theme? Or Elspeth Tirel?
- Wall of Reverence is a headache to play against.
- You run a swarm of white finishers. How many 7+ drops do you even want to run? None of Akroma, Avacyn and Iona are fun to play against, and you've got an actual on theme angel you've left out: Reya Dawnbringer! Other than that I'ld say that Angel of Serenity is a more interesting finisher than all three as well.
- Incidentally, if you're going to turn into a control color anyway, Firemane Angel is both a lot more interesting than Assemble the Legion, and more on theme (angel, lifegain, good with red looters).
- CC two drops are hard to cast. They really have to be worth their weight in gold imho to be worth their inclusion, and running too many can leave players with their two drops stranded in hand a lot of the time. Blue has four (!) drops, feels like way to many. Personally I'ld take a long hard look at those and cut at least two of them.
- You say blue aggro is a thing, but I'm not really seeing it. Maybe because it's harder to pull that off at 540 than at 360? Still, there's some cards I would expect in that archetype that are not in your cube: Favorable Winds, Serendib Efreet (seriously, where's that one?), Incursion Specialist, Unsubstantiate, Sleep, Aquamoeba, Wharf Infiltrator, Cloudform, Hypnotic Siren, Triton Shorestalker and Calcite Snapper.
- Having be an aggro color, but also the prison color (in combination with ) feels a bit schizophrenic. Propaganda is super unplayable in an aggro deck, for example. There are, however, prison cards that you wouldn't mind playing in an aggro deck, like Standstill (which you play), Rising Waters, Parallax Tide (you play that too!), Tangle Wire (check), Opposition (my lord is this powerful when blue wants to actively run creatures) and Mana Breach.
- Black has too many drops as well, in my opinion anyway Bloodghast and Relentless Dead are the best two imho.
- Recurring Nightmare is one of the most broken recursion engines in existence. Diabolic Servitude is a fair version.[
- Whip of Erebos makes games go looooooong because of the team-wide lifelink.
- If you like goblins, Goblin Matron is actually a surprisingly playable card!
- Goblin Artillery is functionally identical to Orcish Cannonneers, except that it has a relevant creature type for your cube. Any reason you went with the orcs?
- Verdurous Gearhulk looks dangerously ahead of the curve in terms of power and toughness. Is that really something you want in your environment? (The answer might be yes, I don't know...)
- Both Lyev Skyknight and Reflector Mage look good in a tempo/prison shell.
- If is the ramp guild, where's the pay-off? Only Rakdos's Return wants the mana in its gold section. There has to be a greater draw, right? Deepfire Elemental? Deathbringer Thoctar? Sire of Insanity?
- Izzet Staticaster feels somewhat underwhelming?
- I'm glad there's no Karn Liberated!
- Can I get a mindslaver lock? Yes I can! Go Daretti, Scrap Savant emblem! (Edit: For clarity's sake, this was a positive )
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Agree with much of what has been said.
I apologize for missing the universal mana fixers in the lands section, but you are correct that your total fixing % is higher than what I had calculated, and roughly just below the normal numbers for a 360 cube.
I.
However, everything that Onder is saying about 540 design is also true. With any draft, you'll have 180 cards randomly removed from the card population, which can create some wonky packs. This problem usually can manifest in a couple of different ways, when you have lower percentages of certain effects, or excessive build arounds, narrow cards, or a wide power band (resulting in de facto non picks, and packs that are effectively smaller than they actually are):
1. Hardly any of your mana fixing shows up in the draft; alternately, all of your mana fixing shows up in the draft.
2. The all sweepers draft; alternately, the no sweepers draft
3. The build around stuffed pack, where you have to dance around the non-picks to find the bread and potatoes for your deck
This can also apply to removal, if you have a very low asfan.
Here is an example of this in action from Klug's cube:
Safra's:
Than my:
In safra's pool, the 180 subtraction just didn't hit fixing lands, and she has a wealth of fixing options, while in my population, the subtraction murdered fixing. Very frustrating type of variance to experience on something that really dictates how practically effective your deck can be.
II.
Though, I liked your format quite a bit better than klugs, it still suffers from having such a wide power band (which is a mistake that I've myself made in the past). Here are my draft notes of your cube:
As an aside, fixing did feel tight in the draft, and I needed to make up the slack via mana rocks, which is likely a result of that 180 card subtraction just happening to hit fixers in this draft. This is even after we consider that their is something like 6-7 more fixing lands in the cube than I had originally eyeballed.
And when you look at that deck it pretty much tells the story. None of the synergies--tribal or otherwise--you had originally contemplated are present, and any lower power cards are there grudgingly just to fill slots. Its impossible to get excited over tribal synergies or synergies at all, when I can just collect good removal and bomb value cards, making a deck that is mostly legacy cube, to stomp over the non-legacy cube decks.
Thats not to say you can't draft these fringe decks and have them look functional on paper. Like this guy:
What a fun looking wizards deck! However, how do you think this is going to end when sage of fables, jhoira of the ghitu, docent of perfection, thwart and stonybrook banneret get matched up against FTK, glen elendra archemage, siege-gang commander, chandra, flamecaller, and wildfire. Especially given how bad his mana is.
And...er..welcome to the forum, here is a heap of criticism.
I apologize for missing the universal mana fixers in the lands section, but you are correct that your total fixing % is higher than what I had calculated, and roughly just below the normal numbers for a 360 cube.
I.
However, everything that Onder is saying about 540 design is also true. With any draft, you'll have 180 cards randomly removed from the card population, which can create some wonky packs. This problem usually can manifest in a couple of different ways, when you have lower percentages of certain effects, or excessive build arounds, narrow cards, or a wide power band (resulting in de facto non picks, and packs that are effectively smaller than they actually are):
1. Hardly any of your mana fixing shows up in the draft; alternately, all of your mana fixing shows up in the draft.
2. The all sweepers draft; alternately, the no sweepers draft
3. The build around stuffed pack, where you have to dance around the non-picks to find the bread and potatoes for your deck
This can also apply to removal, if you have a very low asfan.
Here is an example of this in action from Klug's cube:
Safra's:
Angel control from CubeTutor.com
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Than my:
Force blue and pivot into red or black removal depending on what handful of fixing you see in the draft.
UB control from CubeTutor.com
In safra's pool, the 180 subtraction just didn't hit fixing lands, and she has a wealth of fixing options, while in my population, the subtraction murdered fixing. Very frustrating type of variance to experience on something that really dictates how practically effective your deck can be.
II.
Though, I liked your format quite a bit better than klugs, it still suffers from having such a wide power band (which is a mistake that I've myself made in the past). Here are my draft notes of your cube:
Here is the color twist cube
Grixis from CubeTutor.com
Only 50 fixing lands, but lots of mana rocks that at least help. This is the problem with broad power bands, you end up just carving your way around the lower power synergy cards as much as you can, and your strategy warps its way around the bombs.
This is just 90% ETB value, and 10% low power synergy filler. Having red be a control color isn't really that revolutionary as you can just snipe planeswalkers for CA, and neither is having blue be aggressive (most cube lists already have U/x flyers as a deck). The garbage blue weenies will just be drafted around.
Still, I enjoyed this draft a lot more than the pro tour format, though I am disappointed this didn't provide as unique an experience as I had hoped.
As an aside, fixing did feel tight in the draft, and I needed to make up the slack via mana rocks, which is likely a result of that 180 card subtraction just happening to hit fixers in this draft. This is even after we consider that their is something like 6-7 more fixing lands in the cube than I had originally eyeballed.
And when you look at that deck it pretty much tells the story. None of the synergies--tribal or otherwise--you had originally contemplated are present, and any lower power cards are there grudgingly just to fill slots. Its impossible to get excited over tribal synergies or synergies at all, when I can just collect good removal and bomb value cards, making a deck that is mostly legacy cube, to stomp over the non-legacy cube decks.
Thats not to say you can't draft these fringe decks and have them look functional on paper. Like this guy:
Kam_fr's Wizard Onslaught UR from CubeTutor.com
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What a fun looking wizards deck! However, how do you think this is going to end when sage of fables, jhoira of the ghitu, docent of perfection, thwart and stonybrook banneret get matched up against FTK, glen elendra archemage, siege-gang commander, chandra, flamecaller, and wildfire. Especially given how bad his mana is.
And...er..welcome to the forum, here is a heap of criticism.
Thanks for the constructed criticisms, this will help me refine some stuff in the cube.
There's lot of food for thought, I can't process it correctly with just one quick reading and a huge lack of sleep.
I'll come back either tomorrow if I found some time (trying to beat Klug's 5600 followers and 15000 facebook fans is a full time job and the contest ends on monday), or after the end of the voting process.
There's lot of food for thought, I can't process it correctly with just one quick reading and a huge lack of sleep.
I'll come back either tomorrow if I found some time (trying to beat Klug's 5600 followers and 15000 facebook fans is a full time job and the contest ends on monday), or after the end of the voting process.
Regardless of the contest outcome, you made a pretty sick cube. I hope this won't be the last time we see you.
Yeah. I'm glad the two best entries showed up here. I hope Klug doesn't come see all the shit we're talking about him.
I don't hate the guy- in fact, I'm sure he's nice, intelligent, and his cube (at least in part) deserves the following it has.
He's just been put in this -really- awkward position. I don't think anyone here is talking shit about Klug (or at least, they shouldn't be). The people to 'blame' (if there indeed is blame to be found) for this situation are the contest organizers, who should not have known better.
- Having
I also like
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Do you need a Twitter account to see the voting results or something? I only see a series of MOCS and KLD tweets.
Today was pretty intense but I kept my small advantage til the last minute.
I asked Wizards if I could make some changes on the list (including Kaladesh + minor adjustment). I'll discuss all your suggestions and comments tomorrow.
I asked Wizards if I could make some changes on the list (including Kaladesh + minor adjustment). I'll discuss all your suggestions and comments tomorrow.
CML
Contributor
I'm not even looking at this in too much depth because it'd be like reading a whole Franzen novel, but I will share that a rather joyless local bitched about losing in some round or the other and I cheerfully informed him it was because he didn't listen to my criticism on the Google Groups RiptideLab around three and a half years ago. I am now blocked on multiple social-media sites
Quick hits (you know me, hits):
—Why is it worth getting angry about when Wizards drops the ball on a good idea? Anyone here who seriously expected those guys to hold a contest that we'd enjoy should *ahem* read my book and PT sucks article
—wtwlf lives on MTGS, a forum so averse to criticism that no good idea has been published there in roughly a decade, not sure what you expected there either
—I want more actual twisting from Tim and fewer cards that do nothing (Peace of Mind, you know who you are)
—Any contest where it helps to suck up to @mtg_lee and "have close ties to the MTGO staff" is a contest not worth winning
—Klug's alters are generally terrific but the Cube is, well, uh, let me put it this way. Would Kanye write a novel? Would I perform a dance quartet? Would Jason Waddell try to draw fantasy art?
—Even though I thought shit-talking was a primary purpose of this forum, I'll cheerfully claim responsibility for all the negative sentiments in this thread so as to not compromise future Christmas and anniversary presents
Quick hits (you know me, hits):
—Why is it worth getting angry about when Wizards drops the ball on a good idea? Anyone here who seriously expected those guys to hold a contest that we'd enjoy should *ahem* read my book and PT sucks article
—wtwlf lives on MTGS, a forum so averse to criticism that no good idea has been published there in roughly a decade, not sure what you expected there either
—I want more actual twisting from Tim and fewer cards that do nothing (Peace of Mind, you know who you are)
—Any contest where it helps to suck up to @mtg_lee and "have close ties to the MTGO staff" is a contest not worth winning
—Klug's alters are generally terrific but the Cube is, well, uh, let me put it this way. Would Kanye write a novel? Would I perform a dance quartet? Would Jason Waddell try to draw fantasy art?
—Even though I thought shit-talking was a primary purpose of this forum, I'll cheerfully claim responsibility for all the negative sentiments in this thread so as to not compromise future Christmas and anniversary presents