Salmo, I don't think we cube the same sort of cubes.
Sets Hour of Devastation Thread
- Thread starter Golvin
- Start date
I mean, it doesn't really matter what type of cubes you cube, a 2/1 for 2U is neither good on offense or defense. It can't profitably attack or trade into a lot of boards. At least Sea Gate Oracle is a good blocker. There is the eternalize cost, but if it takes forever to get there (which it can) and you're relying on that to justify including this card because the body certainly doesn't, then it's a stretch IMO to say this is good enough, at least for the long term.
I think you cannot undersell how much 5UU is as a cost, even in cube. It's high enough that you have to really see if the first half is something you want, and the first half looks pretty meh mainly due to the body. I'm not lacking for cheaper or better discard outlets.
I think you cannot undersell how much 5UU is as a cost, even in cube. It's high enough that you have to really see if the first half is something you want, and the first half looks pretty meh mainly due to the body. I'm not lacking for cheaper or better discard outlets.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I don't know, it looks good to me: looters are great, late game mana sinks are great, modal cards are great, graveyard interactions are great. Its probably right for it to be a 2/1, since you want it to die, and you can't really just ignore a 2 powered creature hitting you for forever.
I mean, maybe people are getting too excited about it (probably), but if the floor is sea gate oracleish, and its a good cog piece for lots of other interactions, while also addressing negative variance issues, it seems fine.
The format absolutely does play a role in how it would be evaluated. This is going to be happiest in a format where you want to hold card filtering effects for mid game smoothing, and maybe in a pinch drop it on 3, using the body to fog. Once you've pulled ahead into the late game and have either control or attrited everyone to oblivion, your early/mid game smoother comes back as a win con. This is a minority of formats.
However, yes, its a bit slow for pressure formats where you want 0-1 mana early game smoothing ideally, and there is either no universal ramp to help reach 7, or the standard for 7 mana investments is to end the game. Its maybe worse than sea gate oracle in that context, and merfolk looter is probably better.
I mean, maybe people are getting too excited about it (probably), but if the floor is sea gate oracleish, and its a good cog piece for lots of other interactions, while also addressing negative variance issues, it seems fine.
The format absolutely does play a role in how it would be evaluated. This is going to be happiest in a format where you want to hold card filtering effects for mid game smoothing, and maybe in a pinch drop it on 3, using the body to fog. Once you've pulled ahead into the late game and have either control or attrited everyone to oblivion, your early/mid game smoother comes back as a win con. This is a minority of formats.
However, yes, its a bit slow for pressure formats where you want 0-1 mana early game smoothing ideally, and there is either no universal ramp to help reach 7, or the standard for 7 mana investments is to end the game. Its maybe worse than sea gate oracle in that context, and merfolk looter is probably better.
A 2/1 that loots on ETB is exactly the sort of 3-drop defensive play many cubes are happy to pick up in blue around here, as it shapes the hand and trades with or chumps aggressive 1 or 2-drops. It has late-game relevancy, too, drawing for more gas.
I realize you have a much more high-powered cube, Salmo, but you'll find plenty of us here happy to shape our environments towards these lower-impact cards. The assertion that "it doesn't really matter what types of cubes you cube, <this one thing> won't work" will never have legs around here. Someone will limbo low enough on the power level for just about anything printed in the newest modern border these days, I guarantee it.
I realize you have a much more high-powered cube, Salmo, but you'll find plenty of us here happy to shape our environments towards these lower-impact cards. The assertion that "it doesn't really matter what types of cubes you cube, <this one thing> won't work" will never have legs around here. Someone will limbo low enough on the power level for just about anything printed in the newest modern border these days, I guarantee it.
These things are all great, sure, but I don't *want* this to die, I want to be able to use the body I paid 2U + Careful Study'd for, and if that is just to trade--and with 1/1s, for that matter--then that's not great. If the ETB ability had a bigger impact on the board, like a Bone Shredder or Deranged Hermit, then yeah Im a bit more excited to see it go, but if I'm facing a lot of decks from a lot of different formats then this guy is more 'shitty roadblock' than anything else. It definitely has a lower floor than Seagate Oracle.
And yeah, this would be better in the Legendary Cube or wherever where every game makes it to 7 mana, but even in a lower powered format that isn't the norm. These cubes still have 2s and 3s which apply pressure, and this is not a great card at combating those. As you mention, the formats where this excels is probably a minority of formats, as I would say most cubes try to support aggro/midrange/control enough to make this a kind dud there.
I'll test it, but I'm not holding my breath.
EDIT: Also, let's stop dismissing everything I say as 'you run a powered cube so you don't get it/your criticism doesn't hold weight/blah blah blah', it's really getting old. If I'm commenting here, I'm commenting without the 'powermax' eye you're closely ass0ciating me with. There are a lot of cubes I've played where this would be an underwhelming card, and just because someone will 'limbo low enough on the power level' doesn't make this a card that should do well in *most* cubes, power level be damned. That type of argument holds way less weight than any type of criteria you're holding me to when generally discussing the cards in the context of cube.
And yeah, this would be better in the Legendary Cube or wherever where every game makes it to 7 mana, but even in a lower powered format that isn't the norm. These cubes still have 2s and 3s which apply pressure, and this is not a great card at combating those. As you mention, the formats where this excels is probably a minority of formats, as I would say most cubes try to support aggro/midrange/control enough to make this a kind dud there.
I'll test it, but I'm not holding my breath.
EDIT: Also, let's stop dismissing everything I say as 'you run a powered cube so you don't get it/your criticism doesn't hold weight/blah blah blah', it's really getting old. If I'm commenting here, I'm commenting without the 'powermax' eye you're closely ass0ciating me with. There are a lot of cubes I've played where this would be an underwhelming card, and just because someone will 'limbo low enough on the power level' doesn't make this a card that should do well in *most* cubes, power level be damned. That type of argument holds way less weight than any type of criteria you're holding me to when generally discussing the cards in the context of cube.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I was looking for more looters actually, to support the Drake Haven-style cards Amonkhet gave us. Incidentally I've seen plenty of games go to seven mana in my environment, so that's not a barrier for this card in my cube.
FWIW, I do think you're putting too much weight on the eternalize cost. That is the secondary effect of the card, it's a late game mana sink, if you will. Careful Study on a stick is actually something I'ld be interested in even if it didn't have any additional abilities, so the eternalize is just gravy. Occasionally very, very good gravy. Because while you won't always get to seven mana, if you do, goodness gracious. Draw 4, discard 2 on an impactful body goes a long, long way towards winning a topdeck war.
Also...
> 
FWIW, I do think you're putting too much weight on the eternalize cost. That is the secondary effect of the card, it's a late game mana sink, if you will. Careful Study on a stick is actually something I'ld be interested in even if it didn't have any additional abilities, so the eternalize is just gravy. Occasionally very, very good gravy. Because while you won't always get to seven mana, if you do, goodness gracious. Draw 4, discard 2 on an impactful body goes a long, long way towards winning a topdeck war.
Also...
>
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Well agree to disagree then, cause 5UU is a real cost and careful study on a stick doesn't really appeal to me if that stick is a 2/1 for 2U. Cheers
Yeah, it isn't actually careful study on a stick, and we should probably be pausing if thats where our mind is taking us. I was thinking that the metric would be closer to something like, could you run careful consideration and have it be a card?
What is it then? Careful study draws 2 and discards 2, as does this. Unless we're arguing semantics here and I don't realize it, calling this Careful Study on a stick is pretty apt in most all scenarios when looking at the front/business half.
Also, Careful Consideration is like my all-time most underrated cube card. I love that shit, digging 4 deep both at instant and sorcery speed and having a reason to go at sorcery speed has been pretty ballin'. I may be the only one who loves Careful Consideration, but I do indeed love it.
Also, Careful Consideration is like my all-time most underrated cube card. I love that shit, digging 4 deep both at instant and sorcery speed and having a reason to go at sorcery speed has been pretty ballin'. I may be the only one who loves Careful Consideration, but I do indeed love it.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think we got a little twisted here.
I was agreeing with you. Onder made a bad analogy between this card and careful study, and you pointed out that it can't be careful study on a stick, because such a card should be 1cc, and that those mana differences in this context are material.
Framing it as careful study on a stick, when that analogy ignores material differences, suggests a skewed perspective.
That being said though, I feel like we somehow have gotten to a weird spot. If the argument is now that we can legitimately compare this with careful study, and that we like careful consideration, than it seems like a card we would want to run.
What is going on here.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Card seems pretty conflicted to me. Its a niche card but also Jack of all Trades at the same time? I'd be pretty excited about this in Skaab Ruinator style decks where the body makes it more attractive then comparable roleplayers (Forbidden Alchemy, Strategic planning, even frantic search sometimes). The late value is slow, but pretty gamewinning in a grind. I'm pessimistic that the exact types of cubes where this is good it isn't actually fun.
Side note: Are people still running 2/1s that don't come back to life? They strike me as a huge design liability.
Side note: Are people still running 2/1s that don't come back to life? They strike me as a huge design liability.
It's not suggesting anything other than it does what careful study does on a body. I just call it that because in magic terms that's something people easily relate to, not that I'm comparing them. I'm not sure where you got the comparison, but something on a stick doesn't imply it has the same cost, just the same effect. It's the same thing as saying 'a creature that draws two discards two when ETB', which considers nothing regarding the cost you paid just what happens when that cost is paid. And just cause I like Careful Consideration doesn't mean I think 5UU eternalize Careful Consideration on a stick is good, either.
I think you're making this more confusing than it needs to be, Grillo.
I think you're making this more confusing than it needs to be, Grillo.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That seems loose semantically, but I suppose false equivalences are good enough for magic cards.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I have a LOT of ways to make this a 1-mana 4/4...
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Honestly didn't mean to mislead anyone there, that's common vernacular over here. I guess other people might say "Careful Study on legs", but these words never imply the creature has the same casting cost.
Like, the post that spoils the card on mtgs uses the exact same words even: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...on/778815-hou-cube-champion-of-wits?comment=1
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
For anyone still running colorless mana cards (*cough* Thought-Knot Seer *cough*), look at these sweet lands!
Nice! I'll almost assuredly put the black one in over blighted fen, tapping for colored mana is super on this type of land.
Edit: really digging Hollow One. Perfectly slots into the draw-discard suite I've got setup throughout red and blue, and BLB cycling lands don't hurt. Even has cycling!
Edit: really digging Hollow One. Perfectly slots into the draw-discard suite I've got setup throughout red and blue, and BLB cycling lands don't hurt
. Even has cycling!It's common vernacular everywhere when it comes to discussing magic cards
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I just wanted to point out that you are arguing over the internet and you are missing out on a discussion on a set of potentially sweet lands
So, anyone else got a longlist of cards they want to add? The Desert-theme is a bit too loose for my tastes, but there's a bunch of eternalize cards that look pretty good, and the choose one cycle is sweet as well.
I wonder if this is awesome or pushed a bit too much:
Also, fuck me. Time to Live is actually called...
Could have been such a sweet aura...
*insert arguing on the internet XKCD comic here*
But seriously, those three modal spells look sweet. Im a bit more confident about the red and blue ones, but the black one could end up better than it looks. The thing that makes me hesitant is that 3 mana is kind of a danger zone for both of the black's modes to become irrelevant/close to irrelevant in a number of matches, but having it be modal greatly reduces the issues there.
But seriously, those three modal spells look sweet. Im a bit more confident about the red and blue ones, but the black one could end up better than it looks. The thing that makes me hesitant is that 3 mana is kind of a danger zone for both of the black's modes to become irrelevant/close to irrelevant in a number of matches, but having it be modal greatly reduces the issues there.
Reminds me of one of my favourite internet pictures:
