Card/Deck Balance: Reasonably Efficient Non-Etb Creatures?

[Grillo_Parlante]

One of the things that made pre-mythic era magic, pre-mythic era magic, was that not every creature had to have an ETB in order to be competitive.




Shocking, I know. Not that I want to be too nostalgic here:




There is a real balancing act, as higher CC threats get disproportionately impacted by cheap removal.




But ETB based creatures can gain an unfair advantage against all but the most efficient removal, since strong enough tacked on spell effects can make it feel like removal spells are only netting half a card. When removal starts to feel like card disadvantage, rather than parity trades, you start to want it to be very mana efficient, so you can at least maximize your mana usage during the turn, and exploit the tempo gained. This can have all sorts of interesting effects on the way games feel, whether for good or for bad.

Kamigawa-RGD-TS era standard was probably more a product of chance than good design, existing at a time before ETB creatures--and planeswalkers--really started to take over creature design (making the game more creature-centric than spell centric); yet also being a time with WOTC was consciously experimenting with ways to make creatures less miserable than they previously had been. While there was still a lot of trash, RGD, in particular, hit on some good notes, in an aspect of design that I imagine is very challenging.

As far as cube is concerned though, there is probably some design space to explore (at all power levels), where one runs a majority of efficient, non-ETB creatures, backed up by a smaller cadre of ETB threats, in an attempt to balance out spells vs. creatures.

There also exists an interesting sub-argument about spell balance, namely the presence of spells with tacked on spell effects.





But living in an era of absurdly pushed ETB monsters can dull the senses somewhat. What hidden gems are there, of reasonably efficient non-ETB creatures, from throughout the game's history?

In particular, more expensive ones, as cheap 1-2cc threats have historically not had to be in the ETB club, as their mana efficiency makes cheap removal much less punishing.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Good thread.
At higher power level, I don't really like expensive creatures without etb effects that are good enough to play. Makes them much more swingy. Super good when the opponent doesn't have doom blade, bad when they do (the baneslayer effect). My goal is for most 5+ mana creature to have etb effects be at least some of the cards power, to reduce this swinginess.

 

[sigh]

Don't forget about guys with activated abilities instead of ETBs. The soul cycle is a poster child cycle for this:

They can still gain advantage even through removal, but it incurs velocity loss and is thus more balanced.

Edit: a non-soul implementation of this would be something like scavenge.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Those creatures in particular I feel got really short-changed by creature power creep. None of them are actually bad, but they look so terrible compared to most ETB equivalents.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

One such creature I've been really thinking of lately is this guy



Surely, this is a good/interesting card whose playability is hurt by not doing enough immediately?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

What do you define as efficent? Undercosted bodies and an ability of some sort? Just so we know what we're looking for.

 

[James Stevenson]

One such creature I've been really thinking of lately is this guy



Surely, this is a good/interesting card whose playability is hurt by not doing enough immediately?

This guy's really neat. Shame he costs 4.

 

[safra]

is a cool, modernized Shivan Dragon. Actually, what's wrong with Serra and Shivan?

 

[ahadabans]

Serra is right on the cusp. What made it great back in the day is it could both attack and defend - you didn't have to choose one or the other. But with all the hyper efficient removal and better creatures overall (4 toughness doesn't block like a champ anymore), Serra isn't worth 5 mana in most cubes these days sadly.

I haven't played with Shivan in a billion years, but I think it's similar. Add to it the fact that Moltensteel Dragon out Shivan's Shivan in my mind. Moltensteel is just so much better in aggressive strategies and it offers a lot more risk/reward during games. Quite a wonderful card to play with if you haven't before.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What do you define as efficent? Undercosted bodies and an ability of some sort? Just so we know what we're looking for.

More or less. Probably looking at rare or mythic rarity. something that seems reasonably powerful enough to justify a mana investment with no immediate return. This is a really good question though, and I doubt there is an easy answer.

This is an example of a card that managed to make it:



Though this probably has a lot to do with it already being undercosted, and green, meaning you can conceivably ramp her out turn 3.

Here is another one that often makes cube cuts (to my surprise):

Actually, what's wrong with Serra and Shivan?

Well, first they have to compete with ETB equivalents, and generally speaking, spell + creature at a mana point is more efficient than just getting a creature.

Assuming though that we tone down the ETB density, our second problem is that 5-6cc bodies with no immediate effect are tremendously juicy bounce targets. and can be quite bad if you are behind while under pressure. When serra angel was the "best creature in magic" decks were terrible at exerting early pressure. Here is the delver of the era:



With a more modern setup, you want them to be spending their turn running out angels or shivans, as that opens them up to being time walked. Those cards can start to feel like they are only really good when you are ahead, and are more win more than good cards.

I suspect that flameblast would fall into the win more category, but these cards are much harder to evaluate than regular ETB creatures.

 

[sigh]

Monstrous is another good angle for this thread, speaking of Polukranos. One I've seen in some lists is

If youre ok with rando protection clauses, there's also:


Which brings up another interesting angle: haste. Haste let's the creature at least move to combat one time. Dash is the sweetest haste-granting thing we've gotten recently.
Cards like:


Which let's us meld right into another cool angle, which is attack triggers. This can be on stuff like:

Which brings up the point that this sort of thing is easier to do on small creatures because tempo loss isn't as bad.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Here is the king of "cards that should be perfectly fine but somehow are not because they lack an ETB"

 

[Suicufnoc]

Kokusho is probably fine if you don't run any exile effects.

 

[genericco]

So why does Kokosho not cut it? The 5/5 flying body is established as being worth about five mana, or at least between four and five in most of our cubes. Surely the on-death trigger is worth the rest of the casting cost?

The main culprit for me would be exile effects and psudeo-removal, elements that are popular and add depth to cubes, just not in their roles as incidentally hosing expensive death trigger creatures. So basically the choice is between white exile and blue stealing/bouncing your creatures and having expensive non-etb creatures.

While I prefer ETB creatures at six and seven mana for that reason, at lower CMCs the guaranteed value of the ETB mechanic becomes oppressive and undesired. The worst offenders for me are cards like phyrexian rager or flametongue kavu, where deciding to play them is like asking yourself "is now a good time to cash in a two-for-one?". I cut most of these for being boring as well as for power reasons.

In general ETB is not very exciting, and I'd be interested in low-power explorations of death-trigger or activated ability alternatives to popular ETB effects i.e Kor Sanctifiers -> Devout Witness or Reliquary Monk.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Basically, you answered your own question: its better to cash in on your value immediatly, rather than waiting and getting punished for your mana investment by interaction.

 

[sigh]

Compare siege rhino, for instance

 

[whydirt]

Another way to combat generic ETB creep is to use conditional abilities like morbid or raid that add some additional setup cost or ones with narrow, even if powerful effects like Ranger of Eos that make repeated blinking less likely to be productive.

 

[RavebornMuse]

I like this concept, and it's something I've had more room to explore as I drop in power level. I've been drafting like a maniac lately, always with a group of 3, and here's what I have in my list that's non-ETB and working out:

Djinn of Wishes is a very popular recent include here, offering blue a good body to beat or block with that dodges most burn and has shenanigans to offer with its activated ability.
Archangel of Thune, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, and The Gitrog Monster are all known strong cards around here
Exalted Angel is a real beating and the timing considerations for playing her add some tension to what is already a very cool card
Olivia Voldaren is crazy strong and the crown of the recent Grixis Protect the Queen deck I swept with last draft
Soul Swallower is really cool if you push graveyard hard enough

 

[genericco]

There are never enough cards to choose from, but recent keywords like exploit, raid and soulbond are either conditional enough or put enough of a twist on it for me to prefer them in most cases.

SOI shows a bit of what's going on, both the bad (chase mythic Archangel Avacyn is pushed enough without her ETB trigger creating blowouts) and the good:

- Conditional ETBs like Pack Guardian and Intrepid Provisioner
- Narrow ETBs like Stoic Builder
- The Manic/Obsessive/Gibbering/Topplegeist cycle of incremental value through delirium
- A ton of sweet incremental value engines at 2 and 3 mana that aren't just ETBs. Tireless Tracker, Sin Prodder, Bygone Bishop, Duskwatch Recruiter

Even if they aren't all at the level I want for my purposes or varied enough for all purposes, I think it shows the design team is moving in the right direction.

 

[Kirblinx]

That is one of the cuttroat problems cube has. When you run whatever you want you always gravitate to things that are good. No one runs Runeclaw Bear. Even though it has been a decent playable for every limited format it has been in, it just can't cut it in cube (even pauper). Everything you would be running in cube is 'efficient' to some extent, it just depends to what extent that is. You already touched on that with your 'mana efficiency' with Watchwolf.

Although after looking at this for a bit I don't think efficiency is the word I am looking for. It is more like 'attributes'. A vague over-encompassing umbrella as to how creatures can be valued. Efficiency is just about if it is costed correctly. More Chittering Rats, less Chimney Imp etc.

I decided to run through my peasant cube and see where each of their attributes lie and make a list of what you should be looking for:
Pure Value/ETBs


For when you need a spell but it leaves a body behind. Always a 2-for-1 and what is starting to grind Grillo's gears. We all know how good these are that I don't need to talk too much about them.

Insurance/LTBs

Looks like I don't have many of these. They allow you to play your creature and still be able to gain something if they manage to remove it. Be it on 'dies' triggers or they can sacrifice themselves you are almost guaranteed a free chump-block to get your spell. I like these and feel like I want to work on those considering how much I like Byway Courier and Dauntless Cathar in SOI limited.

Resilience/Protection


Having a threat that is hard to remove is great. It gives the game a nice tension if you can outrace the problem or find one of your few answers that can deal with it. Some types of resilience are more favourable than others. Things like Mirran Crusader are generally frowned upon since they can just flat out destroy some decks and True-name Nemesis has become almost cancer to to the cube community. I guess some resilience can be just too efficient.

Above the Curve/Mana Efficient

This is where all the aggro creatures lie mostly. Anything that has power greater than its CMC would be considered 'above the curve'. You can also take into account abilities if you want, but that is where my quandry with the 'efficient' word I mentioned before comes in. Sometimes there are weird riders that allow you to skimp on mana like the Ephemeron or stuff like Illusory Angel but they still get you a creature that is bigger than what you paid for.

On Board Trick

These cards give you almost immediate value when you cast them, without having an EtB effect. Most are better a turn or so later but can be used straight away. I feel this and the next attribute are almost the same, but these don't really give you any card advantage so to speak. They just make life difficult for your opponent until they are removed.


Potential Value

Similar to above, but these are where your creatures have some sort of ability that can eek out advantage over a couple of turns if it still sitting there. These generally have the largest target on their heads as opponents want to get rid of them while you haven't gotten anything from them yet to keep at parity.

Flexibility

We all know that having options costs extra, as we have seen with the commands but having so many options is awesome.

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That is all I could really see in my cube. I really have a lot of EtB in there though, especially in black.

I feel the best place to look for these non-EtB threats would be the On Board Trick and Potential Value veins, as there could be a lot there. I think for a card to be 'cube viable' it might need to hit a couple of these attributes it if isn't grabbing the EtB attribute. The Soul Cycle that Sigh mentioned hit on the Potential Value and Insurance veins while being on curve.

I don't really know where I was going with this. I started this post last weekend and have now forgotten (and there are been several more posts since then). Hopefully this was interesting to read and you can make your own conclusion of what I was trying to accomplish here.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think I would rearrange those categories or maybe not use categories at all. Frostburn weird, sentinel of the eternal watch, and rage thrower, for example, don't really provide immediate value, since immediate value must come in the form of immediate, manaless triggers. Otherwise, the creature may never make it outside of the step when it was cast, and never produce value.

Protection can also be tricky. Jetting glasskite is a good example, but stinkweed imp, probably not so much. Imp tends to be very vulnerable to bounce and tempo plays, due to its CC. Ancient silverback has the same problem.

I would also put kor sanctifiers into the ETB camp.

Mana efficiency is also a tricky thing: rumbling slum is efficient stat wise, but mana efficient midrange creatures tend to be harder to justify slots for compared with that their lower CC kin. Granted, I'm sure part of that has to do with the way lower CC creatures are designed (you are less likely to get competitive bodies and good ETBs), but part of that is also just that 4-6cc bodies are overly vulnerable to bounce, regardless of how efficient they are in terms of stats.

I think it would probably be more accurate to reflect more the historical process behind creature design, to show the different knobs and levers that can be pulled, as was reflective in genericco's post:

1. Mana to stat efficiency; and
2. ETB triggers

Making the most competitive options, and than:

3. All of wizards other attempts to push creature value, which can be something of a mixed bag:
A. LTBs
B. Exploit
C. Haste
D. Conditional ETBs (e.g. echo)
E. combat triggers
F. raid
G. soulbond
H. Narrow ETBs
I. low power ETBs

I'm not sure how much of a balancing force narrow, conditional, or low power ETBs really are. The power of being able to cash in a 2 for 1 on demand is still just really good, though they seem to have done a great job balancing pack guardian in that regard. Those might need to be broken off though, and given their own identity.

 

[ahadabans]

A recurring theme I've seen recently is "weak against bounce".

Which begs the question, does bounce in general need to be dialed back a bit in some of these environments?

Bounce fundamentally encourages degeneracy in my experience because it supports two mechanics that are already very strong with minimal synergy support. Namely ETB/Value creatures (good stuff) and tokens. Blink is an archetype that is supportable in any power level cube too, including fully powered cubes running power 9. That's how easy it is to take that to Broken Town. So I feel like great effort has to be taken in lower power environments to not over support it. I've over supported it in the past and watched it be the best deck at the table with minimal effort. Which is a real problem now that I'm pushing weaker mechanics (like enchantress/heroic for example). It mattered less with Tinker.dec and friends.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Bounce is kind of unique. Other removal can be made conditional, but bounce is always unconditional; and the ability to answer anything for a turn is very powerful. The caveat is that you kind of need bounce + pressure for it to be really good.

In formats with lots of early pressure, it makes it where its kind of suicidal to invest a turn in a high CC individual threat that doesn't yield immediate value, when they can just timewalk you and crunch. If you're getting out pressured, the way you come back is by sequencing out multiple spells, which is part of why ETB spam is so good.

Really cheap removal can have a similar effect, I just singled out bounce because its always unconditional, while you other removal you can always condition the cheaper it becomes: e.g ghastly demise.

Whether that raises a balance concern with bounce or not, I don't know; you certainly want at least some in a format, and its one of the few instances where I think its better as a spell effect than an ETB effect, due to being able to move at instant speed.

Unless, of course, you are:

 

[whydirt]

Oh how things change...

http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/creatures-with-neutral-card-economy.883/

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Well, they are kind of different threads. One is a cataloging, this one is balancing.