Card/Deck Kill it with fire (let's talk removal)

ColonelSanders

ColonelSanders

So I've been trying to lower the power level of my cube, and to extend this idea, I'm lowering the power level of my removal spells. Lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, doomblade, counterspell, and company are all fine magic cards, but they can make creatures irrelevant if the creatures don't bring immediate. I realize that I'm not breaking any new ground with this idea, but I wanted to see what cards other people had tried out in their cubes.

A couple I've found pretty interesting:
Bonds of faith - pacifism or buff depending on what deck it's getting played in. Allows for a voltron strategy and forces W/x control decks to think a little before stopping every creature in sight.

Curse of chains - another pacifism effect. Gives blue something that isn't a counterspell or bounce, but doesn't stop tap abilities

dark blast / tragic slip / nameless inversion - I really like -X/-X removal spells in black because they can kill small creatures and function as combat tricks

kindle - I've tried running various numbers (~10) in a 500 card cube. It's a serviceable on it's own and provides great reach. Also, provides the "who can draft the most kindles" minigame and makes R/x mirrors interesting if both players have kindle in their deck



Also, I don't know if this has gotten its own thread before; all I could find was the one about modal removal spells
 
Alfonzo Bonzo

Alfonzo Bonzo

I'm of the view that you want to build and design your threats before you look at the answers. I'm a fan of curse of chains and tragic slip too. Other more unusual things I like:

 
ahadabans

ahadabans

I'm a big Nameless Inversion fan as it is really good friends with Haakon. I second Harm's Way and Prison Term - both really good cards.

Setessan Tactics looks really fun but I have yet to test it (it's in my next update though).

I'm of the opinion that targeted removal is great but sweepers are just as vital (if not more so). With a lot of sweepers, overextending has actual risks that you have to balance with the potential rewards of shortening the game clock. I like the weight of that decision, it has a lot of depth to it.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm not quite sure if you're willing to slum it at my level, but if you are, I can only promise you the best of the bottom of the barrel in conditional removal.

First off, pacifism effects



Bonds of faith is a good one because its actually somewhat skill testing. These are all great because they make bounce, enchantment removal, and sacrifice effects better.

Bounce/tappers/untappers




Because cards that make people want to attack are good. These can also be great with thoughtseize effects or mill effects (and you are probably not milling). Also a nice contrast with the pacifism effects, and good against cards with counters and token creatures.

Weird supporting creatures




These creatures are great because their annoying abilities and low base stats are like a constant reminder to everyone of how bad your removal is. The maggot and fiend combo with the "to the hand" bounce spells.

-x -x cards





These are great because they encourage people to attack and the morbid cards reward people for trading (not board stalling).

Expensive Removal that dosen't make up for the tempo loss




Cards like corpsehatch are way too good here, since the eldrazi spawn tokens help make up for the massive tempo loss it represents, and this makes for nice tension with all of the tempo cards.

Edict Effects



warren weirding is another good skill testing card.

Theaten effects



These are awesome tempo cards and can act as hard removal with sac. outlets

Burn



The better the card, the more it should cost and be sorcery speed.

Fight Cards



Because big dumb creatures is apparently what green does.

Mass Removal

Mass removal should be at a minimum, since otherwise people will just draft it as a reset button for when they are losing. 1 or maybe 2 higher CC pieces of mass removal is ideal. Otherwise pyroclasm effects are the conditional mass removal way to go. If you are worried about board stalls, increase the number of tempo cards and run a few more evasive creatures with a decent equipment package.




And thats about it for cards i've run or considered running. Honorable mention to victim of night and corpse lunge.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I somehow forgot these guys. Now including counterspells. Aether mutation and treacherous urge are really good checks against ramp strategies. Famine is the only black pyroclasm I believe (three to each creature and player).


 
Jonas

Jonas

Tere is also evincars justice, 2 damage to everyone for 2bb, but it has buyback as well, which might be troubling.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Its completely true that you need to decide what needs to be killed and how efficiently you should be able to kill it before you can really start to analyze your removal choices.

What I needed was cards that could kill stuff like Hero of Bladehold and Archangel of Thune efficiently, but have a tougher time blowing out spectral flight on a favored hoplite. So, while I still have vendetta and burst lightning that can blow you out, these cards are much less flexible then dismember and lightning bolt. Flame slash and ashes to ashes can handle the heavy lifting.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
In general I'd rather nerf removal by strengthening the creatures' ETB effects and activated abilities, and old draft formats show this is something you can do even with a lower power level. STP and Bolt being snap first picks is unhealthy and lame but beyond that ... who's with me
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That seems like it could be ok. I think the important thing is to have your answers be weaker than your threats (by this approach), and there are a lot of different ways to go about it. ROE did that with cards like staggershock and ulamog's crusher. STB and bolt are probably still too strong, but I could see mortify or putrefy being acceptable: 3CC removal spells with color conditions seems like they could be ok in the right context. There is a casting cost factor of when do you want your powerful removal coming online in relation to aggro's curve, do you want it to carry with it a tempo cost ect.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Grillo_Parlante said:
That seems like it could be ok. I think the important thing is to have your answers be weaker than your threats (by this approach), and there are a lot of different ways to go about it. ROE did that with cards like staggershock and ulamog's crusher. STB and bolt are probably still too strong, but I could see mortify or putrefy being acceptable: 3CC removal spells with color conditions seems like they could be ok in the right context. There is a casting cost factor of when do you want your powerful removal coming online in relation to aggro's curve, do you want it to carry with it a tempo cost ect.
Click to expand...

Sorcery speed removal also helps with this. The difference between EoT bolt and untap Volcanic Hammer is a big one I feel, and it leaves a lot of room for haste, auras, and ETB triggers to be better.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
What types of Etb triggers are you thinking of running?

The big issues with bolt are its almost nonexistent tempo cost and the instant speed blowouts on combat tricks.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

My issue with lightning bolt is it makes all other burn look over-costed. So I just don't run it anymore. Same thing goes for STP.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
ahadabans said:
My issue with lightning bolt is it makes all other burn look over-costed. So I just don't run it anymore. Same thing goes for STP.
Click to expand...
This is an argument that I agree with more in a constructed setting than in cube. I like having variable-power burn spells that are prioritized differently. But I can see the argument.
 
Lucre

Lucre

Because premium removal is usually easy for aggro decks to pick up early (many of their core cards no one else want unless they are hybrid beaters), I've been noticing a trend through modern cube, peasant and to a lesser extent grim monolith cube, that control decks often want to branch into 3+ colours to pick up whatever premium gold removal isn't being taken. This changes a bit when the aggro decks start resembling combo decks or when you make sure midrange decks want a lot of the aggro creatures but it's still something to note. Maybe I'll make a thread about it.

Some lesser appreciated favourites of mine that sort of speak to my love of peasant lol:



Eric is a big proponent for being interested in the saturation of sorcery and instant speed removal. It really changes the way creature buffs work and things like mana sink abilities.

I really prefer my removal sort of moderated. I like the idea of doubling up on certain removal spells (similar effects) because it creates more awareness of what is possible in your format. If you know that there are two copies of say both dismember and ultimate price in your cube, you have more room to start sculpting the format and your drafters can make better hunches and calls like in constructed formats.
 
Lucre

Lucre

My Current Fave:


Cards I'm really excited to play with more:


I loooove when I get to play decks with:


I also just really like removal that can double by attacking another resource later. Things like tapper artifacts and walkers do this well or say wrecking ball type cards. Remember having strong gold removal is pretty important to your control decks.
 
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