General Land Maindraft

So I hear there's been discussion at the BTP about removing the basic land box. Instead of providing basic lands, all lands are put into the main cube, as in the Desert cube. This would require you to add cards/packs to the draft to compensate (I'm thinking 4 packs of 17?), but this approach offers some interesting possibilities.

Lots of cool lands get left out due to not being worth a cube slot. This is, of course, what led to the ULD, which for most purposes is a far more elegant solution. However in most cubes implementing the ULD, strong fixing is put in the main cube, and as a result weak fixing never gets a chance to shine. Many lands are eschewed because even in the ULD, these cards are too weak without a lot of support.

Now I don't mean gainland weak, or evolving wilds weak. We are looking at cards that barely justify inclusion over a basic land (or don't!). But there is a lot of potential for these cards, which rarely is tapped into when they're competing with duals and free basic lands. Here's an example:



The energy mechanic is a great form of ETB value, which ties into themes such as counters, sacrifice, and proliferate. A manabase based off aether hubs has fascinating color dynamics: you can play a mono color deck, using aether hubs to power your energy cards, or you can play a 3 or 4-color deck, using energy cards to power your aether hubs. It gets even more interesting with Trade Routes and the Lairs as fixing/energy generation engines in conjunction with aether hub. A cube whose fixing comes largely from these lands could be really cool, but the issue is, the card is not good in a vacuum. When something so integral (fixing) is dependant on nonland cards (energy producers), every form of 3+ color deck requires a focus on said mechanic. Your whole cube, is forced to revolve around boosting the value of these weaker lands to the point that they're worth a draft pick. In my cube Deserts require such focus: the cube is built around graveyard themes, and land sacrifice payoffs are plentiful. The low power level is necessary to make the deserts' effects impactful by comparison, zombie tribal boosts your token makers, and the only manafixing in the land section comes from deserts. It would be very difficult for these lands to be tossed in as a subtheme, and as a result they lead to very convergent design: I'd imagine any two cubes running deserts would look very similar.

But what if you could easily integrate these types of lands? What if they were naturally strong picks? An aether hub is pretty appealing if you don't get free basics after the draft. When you get to customize hundreds more cube slots, without the inconsistency of a larger cube, you can support much more diverse themes: you basically are adding 7-14 unique effects to each deck 's land section. How about a goat tribal subtheme? Want to cube Crystal Quarry, Dwarven Ruins, even Riptide Laboratory? Plus land tutors like Tolaria West gain newfound importance.

Are these shenanigans worth the extra drafting (and designing!) time, or is it ultimately not worth the effort?
 

Laz

Developer
So I hear there's been discussion on BTP about removing the basic land box. Instead of providing basic lands, all lands are put into the main cube, as in the Desert cube.


Was that the thread that proposed drafting the basic land box as the most elegant approach, then quickly deteriorated into a whole bunch of fights over which mathematical model you should use to determine how many of each basic you should run based upon the colour symbols in your basic-cube-box?

On topic here, if I recall, there was a fair bit of discussion about what an environment with 30+ Aether Hubs as the mana base would look like when Kaladesh was first released. The issue was that there were not enough Energy cards at the time, and I am not sure if that view has changed. Building out environments around interactions with the mana-fixing options has been dabbled with, led primarily by Grillo's initial dabbling with heavily bounce-land oriented formats. You have played with Deserts, and I took a pretty half-hearted approach to building an environment which heavily featured Cycling lands (this was pre-Amonkhet cycling dual-lands, so I just gave my drafters free mono-colour cyling lands). There are probably a couple more land options that could be explored, including Aether Hub, but also perhaps artifact lands, or creature lands in some capacity (Awaken, more artifact-matter interactions?), and I definitely think people could go deeper on the cycling lands than I did.

Including all the lands in the cube requires you to have incredibly disciplined drafters, and if you actually want playable decks you probably have to include nearly 20 lands per drafter (This is where the desert cube is at, it creates scarcity via coloured sources). Including less, such as less than 17 per drafter is probably going to create a not particularly enjoyable dynamic, where taking a land is almost always the right pick. Some compromise (a basic land box full of Wastes?) is probably the best option, where you have to pick up fixing, and if that fixing is in the form of utility lands, more power to you. Designing such a land-base for a list is going to be an interesting prospect, but you could probably trial and error into it. I haven't played the Desert cube, so don't know how this dynamic actually feels, but it could be interesting.
 
So would you put Basic lands into the cube and let players draft the Basic lands along with the rest of the cards in a 4 x 17 packs?

Wouldn't this lead to more non-games because some players will make the mistake to draft too few lands by accident/greed/stupidity? That has an attractive side as well though because the stakes are suddenly a little higher. How greedy can you be when you pass on a Basic land in order to get that sweet bomb/sweeper/JTMS?

I would really like to find a format where these are playable.

Shadows over Innistrad
Kaladesh
Amonkhet
Hour of Devastation
Ixalan
Rivals of Ixalan

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So beautiful! And these are only the Simic ones. There are dozens of others in the other combinations.
 
So would you put Basic lands into the cube and let players draft the Basic lands along with the rest of the cards in a 4 x 17 packs?

Not exactly. Basic lands, and ways to fetch them, would certainly be included, but the idea is that now you now have tons of space for nonlands, which can diversify the possible strategies of the cube. Take a RG deck drafted from a normal cube. Its manabase might look something like this:

Lands from CubeTutor.com






But when so many nonbasics are in the main cube, far more interesting manabases emerge. Say Dragon Ramp is a RG subtheme in your LMD (Land Maindraft) cube. A RG dragons manabase might look like this:

Dragon Ramp Manabase Mockup from CubeTutor.com






Variety! Here, the high nonbasic density provides much more interesting drafting and playing decisions. You can destroy your opponent's lands while fixing your mana with Field of Ruin, use Reflecting Pool to take advantage of your Ravaged Highlands, or build up mana for a ramp target with Fungal Reaches. All of these weird, techy lands are easy includes when every land has innate value. Perhaps the biggest draw of LMD is its ability to increase variability, without the inconsistency of a large cube: you still see the whole cube during an 8-man, deck size stays the same, yet you are drafting several more unique, interesting cards for your final 40.

A ULD effectively replaces a few basics with utility lands. A land maindraft gives you a powerful tool to shape your draft and game texture.

Probably the best way to implement the LMD is by designing cubes from the ground up, using the nonbasic lands to provide redundancy for archetypes that otherwise would be lacking support. I imagine such a dynamic change to a cube would require some serious restructuring, so tossing a bunch of cool lands into an existing cube probably isn't a good idea, and at that point a ULD would serve you better. We are talking about an entirely different kind of cube.
 
That’s super interesting!

And you believe 4x17 is the best split because packs wheel twice + 1 card?
 
And you believe 4x17 is the best split because packs wheel twice + 1 card?

I'm not really sure what the optimal cards/pack is, definitely would require testing. I actually hadn't considered the wheeling dynamics, but let's try and calculate this:

Laz's estimate of 20 lands/player sounds reasonable, but perhaps a little low? In a normal cube, you draft maybe 40 nonlands, yet you only put about 23 in your final deck. That equates to 57.5% of the drafted nonlands making the final 40. To achieve the same ratio of lands drafted and played, 30 lands/person would be required. However, lands are probably less narrow than spells here: you are happy to take any duals in one of your colors, and rainbow fixing at a price, such as Abandoned Outpost, would likely be common in a LMD cube. This is in contrast to nonbasics, which aside from artifacts require a certain color(s) of mana to do anything at all. As a result, we can trim down to maybe 28 lands per person. At that point, you have to start considering the dynamics you want during draft. Should it be easy to draft a manabase or do you want the urgency of needing to pick up enough lands? I fall in between so I might test 27 lands/person. However, there is one more factor to consider:
Some compromise (a basic land box full of Wastes?) is probably the best option

I am a big fan of this idea. Wastes are bad enough that no one will plan on taking them, but they provide a safety net if a drafter is a couple lands short of 17. Using this idea, you could safely go down to 24-27, I think. Let's say you go with 25/drafter. That means you need to run 200 lands, assuming you want to see the whole cube each draft. The number of nonlands is up to you: a normal cube probably runs about 310, so I would see that as the minimum, but you could probably go all the way up to 340 and still draft the whole thing. I'm guessing the average LMD cube will run around 325 nonlands.

325 nonlands + 200 lands = 525 cards. This is about how many you will need for an 8-man. Drafting this number of cards in 4 packs equates to 16.4 cards/pack.

So my official recommendation is drafting 4 packs of 16 or 17.
 
Perfection GalacticTraveler
I 100 % agree

Onderzeeboot I believe that would defeat the purpose of this type of draft. Well maybe Vestiges’ only would because you would probably want to run a few of these.

I could see a Basic Land Box filled with Digs.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I misread this and thought you meant having a separate pack just with lands that players draft (an actual pack, not just a ULD), with all nonbasics being moved there. This would let you slim down your main Cube and have smaller packs for the main draft, design with the assumption that players have access to good fixing (and you can avoid the 5c goodstuff 'problem' by using this extra space and freedom to support distinct archetypes) and play lots of sweet lands without the feel-bad moment of having to choose between a good spell and Dwarven Ruins
 
This would let you slim down your main Cube and have smaller packs for the main draft, design with the assumption that players have access to good fixing (and you can avoid the 5c goodstuff 'problem' by using this extra space and freedom to support distinct archetypes) and play lots of sweet lands without the feel-bad moment of having to choose between a good spell and Dwarven Ruins

Ah yes! You have seen the LIGHT!
This sounds eerily similar to something my Assistant has been working on. I may be trying it out soon.
 
I've considered the opposite. What if you had the base ETB-tapped duals be in the basic landbox? With the right powerlevel, there is going to be a good balance between basics and duals. It also means less slots focused on fixing in the list, meaning more action based cards. Lastly, it is an awesome way to support Maze's End, if you use guildgates (I really want to play Maze's End competitively somewhere, ok!?).
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I've considered the opposite. What if you had the base ETB-tapped duals be in the basic landbox? With the right powerlevel, there is going to be a good balance between basics and duals. It also means less slots focused on fixing in the list, meaning more action based cards. Lastly, it is an awesome way to support Maze's End, if you use guildgates (I really want to play Maze's End competitively somewhere, ok!?).

Born in the wrong era
 
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