Card/Deck Lands in Cube

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Lands are seriously important. Too few, and your drafters are eternally frustrated, losing to color screw draft after draft. Too many, and your drafters pick cards lazily, comfortable in the knowledge that they'll be able to cobble together a playable deck out of whatever cards they happen to pick up along the way.

For the quick and dirty, I’ve found somewhere between 10-15% of a given cube should be land based manafixing. Remember that while the full cycles (fetchlands) account for a large part of the available fixing, individual cards like city of brass and evolving wilds count as well.

Since most of our available fixing comes in the form of 10 card cycles, I’m going to showcase some of the available options here. The problem comes when you examine the amount of 10 card fixing cycles (which include the enemy color pairs, such as {U}{G} or {B}{W} ) as opposed to the 5 card fixing cycles (only allied color pairs).

Here’s an exhaustive list:
Battlefield Forge
Boros Garrison
Boros Guildgate
Clifftop Retreat
Plateau
Rugged Prairie
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Temple of Triumph
9 different 10 card cycles, though at time of writing, the scrylands at the bottom remains incomplete until we finish Theros Block. From here, let’s look at each cycle’s individual merits with regards to aggro, control and other considerations.

These lands are frequently referred to as “The Big 30”. These are really strong lands, excellent in both control and aggro. While they are expensive, I’ll take this opportunity to remind you that this is a casual format, and you are doing a service in having a cube available for everyone to draft. Print some out, sharpie out the “enters the battlefield tapped” clause on some guildgates, do whatever you like. Don’t let money stifle your imagination in our own made up format.

These are called the filter lands, and are very strong. They can’t be used to cast 1 drops, but enter untapped, and can ease heavy color requirements significantly. There’s no other cycle which lets you do the following play sequence:
Mountain, Goblin Guide
Rugged Prairie, White Knight

The Buddy Lands are alright. Solid for a control deck because they’re painless, but less than solid for aggro because the more nonbasics you have in your deck (IE the better your manafixing is) the more often they enter the battlefield tapped. The guildgates present all the same problems as the buddy lands do, and eliminate the only possibility of being good for aggro. They are common though, so they provide essentially the only manafixing for pauper cubes.

The painlands are essentially the opposite: control decks despise them because of the high life cost to use, but aggro decks don’t mind the pain, and enjoy that they enter the battlefield untapped no matter what.

The Scrylands are new from Theros, but are an interesting new idea. Similar to the buddy lands, control decks don’t mind the downside of entering tapped as much as aggro decks do. That being said, there isn’t a deck out there that doesn’t appreciate a good scry. Aggro decks can use it to hide away excess lands, while control decks might not need a finisher now. There’s a lot of interesting gameplay here for something as innocuous as a land, and it might be enough to make up for the fact that they enter the battlefield tapped. (If you hadn’t noticed by now, this is a big deal)

The Bouncelands (You may know them as the Karoo's) are much like the the buddy lands in that their entering tapped is a problem for aggro decks. However, they do provide card advantage, which can make it worth it. Their presence in a cube can present openings for brutal land destruction plays for aggro decks, so keep that in mind.
However, this is hardly the only option:

Yeah, betcha didn't know that was a cycle did ya? :p
Introduced to me by Andrew Cooperfaus, the idea behind what he calls Archetype Based Fixing is to cater to the needs of each color pair, using more aggro oriented lands for more aggro oriented color pairs, and more control oriented lands for the more controlling color pairs.
For example:
Azorius Chancery (Control)
Dimir Aqueduct (Control)
Blackcleave Cliffs (Aggro)
Copperline Gorge (Aggro)
Horizon Canopy (Midrange)
Caves of Koilos (Aggro)
Woodland Cemetery (Midrange)
Hinterland Harbor (Midrange)
Izzet Boilerworks (Control)
Battlefield Forge (Aggro)
I used to run this type of configuration in my cube, and I do appreciate that it lets lesser known lands get their time in the spotlight, but it also pigeonholes which archetypes come out of those color pairs.
The reality is that not every {R}{W} deck is an aggro deck, and not every {U}{W} deck is a control deck. Sometimes you get a sweet brew going, and while battlefield forge is great normally, when your deck has 3 earthquakes in it, you’re going to want to keep your life total as high as you can, and the forge isn’t helping.
I've been trying lately to run lands which any archetype would be happy playing, to prevent this kind of feeling.

I’d like to mention a few specific cycles:
The Worldwake Manlands:
Celestial Colonnade
Creeping Tar Pit
Lavaclaw Reaches
Raging Ravine
Stirring Wildwood
I've seen a lot of people include these as multicolor cards instead of fixing lands, which I wouldn't fault you for. I've certainly noticed that Celestial Colonnade a win condition that happens to fix my mana, not the other way around.
That being said, this isn't a cycle where I think it's all worth including. I've had a longstanding bad relationship with lavaclaw reaches, and every time I drew the card is was horribly underwhelming. In the red/black aggro decks it's too much mana to be effective at all, and most of the red/black control builds I've seen typically hinge around mutal destruction, with cards like Wildfire, Death Cloud and the Like. It doesn't really seem to fit with what any deck wants to do. Even a ramp deck which would be able to take advantage of the firebreathing would want something that didn't die so easily.
The Vivid Lands:
Vivid Meadow
Vivid Creek
Vivid Marsh
Vivid Crag
Vivid Grove
While the ever present drawback of entering tapped rears it’s head again, some designers include these lands due to their unique ability to fix mana without easily supporting multicolor decks. As their rules text implies, these lands are perfect for casting 1-2 off color spells per game, which is at its best when you have a mostly monocolor deck with 1-2 off color cards in it, as opposed to the more traditional 50-50 color distribution. They’re also quite cheap, for those with budget concerns.
The Old Fetchlands:
Flood Plain
Bad River
Rocky Tar Pit
Mountain Valley
Grasslands
Another option for the shuffle happy, these play most similarly to the guildgates sadly. They do shuffle your deck and trigger landfall again, but they too have the enters the battlefield tapped drawback.
Though, you do get to play a card called bad river, and that’s got to be worth some bonus points in and of itself :p

It's hard to find lands beyond this because so few cycles extend past the allied color pairs. A Boros scars fastland (Seachrome coast) would be really well received, but the limited number of rare slots in modern set design don't allow for such things happen often.
It's for this reason that a lot of cube designers double up on some cycles (including two of each fetchland, for example) to keep the quality of their manafixing more consistent. In a 360 card cube where you only need one more cycle of 10 to have the appropriate 12ish% of manafixing it isn't so bad, but when you get to larger cube sizes like 540, or 720 cards, you start scraping the bottom of the barrel for fixing lands.

Regardless of all this, no matter which lands or how many are in your cube, it's not the end of the world. Draft formats exist where no land based manafixing exists at all, and they’re still fun. I merely want to illustrate the effects your decisions can have. If you include Scabland or Cloudcrest Lake in your cube, people will still play them. But they might not be happy, and they may not be able to do what they want. Or what you want.
 

CML

Contributor
i like jason's idea of raising and flattening the power curve of fixing in cube. this enabled me to save some slots in the main cube, since people would actually play the fixing. compare this to the unfavorable situation of DGR draft, where cluestones exist but suck.

typical cube fixing is biased so strongly to control decks, because aggro decks only want the very best fixing (that which lets them hit their colors starting t1 and doesnt CIPT). it's also biased towards allied colors.

i agree that including full cycles isn't necessary, but lavaclaw reaches (though shitty compared to the rest of those lands) is still good enough to make the cut IMO. i mean, Br vampires played it during MBS standard...

fetches are by far the strongest fixing for aggro, probably for control too. their raw power and shuffle effect has encouraged me to double up on the ZEN cycle.

people don't include enough lands in their cubes. this is probably a byproduct of fetishizing cycles (too few, as you indicate above) as well as singleton, so then they add signets and wonder why aggro can't win a fucking game.

in terms of 'uncuttability' my hierarchy is:
fetches
duals
shocks
wwk manlands
eve filters
buddy lands
scars lands

then we start getting into 'aggro doesn't want it' territory.

great post!
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
i agree that including full cycles isn't necessary, but lavaclaw reaches (though shitty compared to the rest of those lands) is still good enough to make the cut IMO. i mean, Br vampires played it during MBS standard...

There is no middle finger big enough :p
 
Lands are something I feel strongly about, and approach from a very different direction from most cube designers. My cube began as a very, very budget cube. (My rule was that I would keep costs down by not sleeving, and therefore not be tempted to buy good cards. That didn't last...) As everyone knows, lands are the most expensive part of building a cube, and the least "fun", so for a long time I just muddled through with Vivids, Alara trilands, painlands, bouncelands, and typical City of Brass/Terramorphic Expanse/etc. cards. I supplemented with with all ten signets and other fixing artifacts, and the cube worked fine. Really! I think people are so spoiled with what you call the "Big 30" that they find other fixing incredibly painful to try and play with.

I have a fully powered "Space Cube" based on wtwlf's 450 list from a while back, and have drafted a cube with the very best lands quite a bit. I know how differently it plays. But to me, it's not so much better a play experience that I'm even slightly tempted to over DOUBLE the cost of my cube to add in the "Big 30". You certainly have to draft differently. Aggro definitely suffers if you presume you'll have access to the same speed of fixing, and the pick order shifts significantly. But it simply doesn't change the fundamental draft experience if you know what's there going into a draft.

Since then, I've prioritized picking up fixing that isn't CIPT and that helps aggro more than control. I now have added all ten Shocklands, the five WWK manlands (which are certainly fixing in my cube!), the M13/Innistrad buddylands, the Scars fastlands. The fastlands and buddylands have been great additions, since they are excellent in streamlined two-color aggro decks but are not strong at all in slower 3+ color or control decks. I still run the Vivids, and have recently experimented with running the bad CIPT fetches from Mirage, which are likely to come out soon. I then run incomplete cycles of painlands in aggro guilds and bouncelands in control guilds. And it's been working quite well.

I get a bit frustrated when, for example, I hear the guys on the Magic Box podcast lament that you have to spend $1500 just for the land section of their sample skeleton cube to even begin to think about building a non-peasant cube. It's just not true, folks! Painlands/Manlands/Shocks/Fastlands/Buddylands/Bouncelands/Vivids and you've spent under $100 for your entire land section. Will it play differently? Yep! Can you splash a third color as easily in a fast deck? Nope! Is it still a cube? Sure, and people should not be dissuaded from building one by fear of the Big 30...
 

CML

Contributor
middle finger X=7

i've taken to describing fat people at the tourneys around here as "slime molding for X" where 4 = matignon, 6 = brad nelson, 8 = jabba the hutt
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Lands are something I feel strongly about, and approach from a very different direction from most cube designers. My cube began as a very, very budget cube. (My rule was that I would keep costs down by not sleeving, and therefore not be tempted to buy good cards. That didn't last...) As everyone knows, lands are the most expensive part of building a cube, and the least "fun", so for a long time I just muddled through with Vivids, Alara trilands, painlands, bouncelands, and typical City of Brass/Terramorphic Expanse/etc. cards. I supplemented with with all ten signets and other fixing artifacts, and the cube worked fine. Really! I think people are so spoiled with what you call the "Big 30" that they find other fixing incredibly painful to try and play with.

I have a fully powered "Space Cube" based on wtwlf's 450 list from a while back, and have drafted a cube with the very best lands quite a bit. I know how differently it plays. But to me, it's not so much better a play experience that I'm even slightly tempted to over DOUBLE the cost of my cube to add in the "Big 30". You certainly have to draft differently. Aggro definitely suffers if you presume you'll have access to the same speed of fixing, and the pick order shifts significantly. But it simply doesn't change the fundamental draft experience if you know what's there going into a draft.

Since then, I've prioritized picking up fixing that isn't CIPT and that helps aggro more than control. I now have added all ten Shocklands, the five WWK manlands (which are certainly fixing in my cube!), the M13/Innistrad buddylands, the Scars fastlands. The fastlands and buddylands have been great additions, since they are excellent in streamlined two-color aggro decks but are not strong at all in slower 3+ color or control decks. I still run the Vivids, and have recently experimented with running the bad CIPT fetches from Mirage, which are likely to come out soon. I then run incomplete cycles of painlands in aggro guilds and bouncelands in control guilds. And it's been working quite well.

I get a bit frustrated when, for example, I hear the guys on the Magic Box podcast lament that you have to spend $1500 just for the land section of their sample skeleton cube to even begin to think about building a non-peasant cube. It's just not true, folks! Painlands/Manlands/Shocks/Fastlands/Buddylands/Bouncelands/Vivids and you've spent under $100 for your entire land section. Will it play differently? Yep! Can you splash a third color as easily in a fast deck? Nope! Is it still a cube? Sure, and people should not be dissuaded from building one by fear of the Big 30...

While we disagree on the main issue, I think we've come to the same conclusion: Aggro Fixing sucks. No self respecting aggro deck is going to play a signet, and any taplands are a pain for an aggro deck to play.
I'll agree, the Buddy lands work well, but (Much like the filters) you can't use them to play 1 drops. This is usually a problem for aggro decks as they really need the turns interacting when their opponent is still waiting to get their game online to win.

We also agree is to find more fixing that enters Untapped, which is hard to come by. I'm not a huge fan of adding a cycle to the allied guilds and leaving the enemy guilds alone (As with the Manlands/Fastlands, among others), and you're hard pressed to find any lands that work for enemy color pairs, let alone aggro focused ones.
The painlands work, but control decks wish they were something different. Buddy lands work, but aggro decks with they were something different. They will all be played, but everyone is slightly disappointed. The Big 30 really is the best of both worlds, and I'm okay drumming up some sweet proxies for that extra edge.

But to shift this to a larger issue, I don't think people should be intimidated by price to build a cube ever. This is a casual format: nothing is stopping you from letting people play with cards they love because you don't wanna take out a second mortgage.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I have to say running a double set of fetchlands is the best thing I ever did for my format. I love the dynamic.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Hey Jason, if I were to polish this up, could we throw it on the cube academy? I keep getting people asking me for advice on how to build a cube, and I think this is a nice reference
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Many people won't like this suggestion, but I'm going to make it anyway.

If you want affordable mana fixing that is archetype neutral, go out and buy 30-50 guildgates and sharpie over the words "[whatever] Guildgate enters the battlefield tapped". You now have all the fixing you need for under $10.
 

CML

Contributor
I was pretty hesitant to use proxies for my Cube at first, but then I got proxied duals and my Cube became 100 percent better, so I highly recommend everyone proxy fetches and duals if they can't afford 'em. Also, one in the eye of the Hasbro legal dept.

proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
It's giving too much credit to filter lands to say that they make mana 'too good'. You can't build your deck around the starts that filter lands enable because when you don't draw your one Rugged Prairie your R-WW-1RR curve looks really awkward.

I'd also reject the 'too few...; too many...' framing as it implies that these are equally likely/serious. If there's not enough manafixing in an environment there's little you can do to overcome that, but it's very easy to keep overambitious manabases in check; look at how the Vivid X/Reflecting Pool manabases of Lorwyn Standard were terrorized by Anathemancer, or how Wasteland keeps people honest in Legacy. Hypothetically, you could quite easily have a provision that drafters have access to shocklands or the Shards tri-lands in the same way that they do to basic lands, and it would be very easy to make the resulting Cube balanced.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I love the idea of proxying too, though I wouldn't say I do it to spit in the eye of hasbro :p I'll edit something in about that as well.
The too many/too few idea is concerning the idea that this is a starting point. From the cube being a glint in your eye and an idea, it's really hard to imagine the impact wasteland or price of progress can have on your format, and I think that kind of tuning can come later, once you have a semi-stable list (maybe a more advanced primer).

I also think anything your drafters pull out of the basic land box (except maybe another 3 squadron hawks) is pretty advanced territory. I know the utility land draft is huge over here, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone starting out cubeing.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I was pretty hesitant to use proxies for my Cube at first, but then I got proxied duals and my Cube became 100 percent better, so I highly recommend everyone proxy fetches and duals if they can't afford 'em. Also, one in the eye of the Hasbro legal dept.

proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy

As much as the Hasbro legal dept. may want it to be, writing "Goyf" on an island and casting it for 1G isn't and will never be illegal.
 

CML

Contributor
As much as the Hasbro legal dept. may want it to be, writing "Goyf" on an island and casting it for 1G isn't and will never be illegal.

Sheldon Menery would like a word with you

Per Dom I agree filters are powerful but so, so awkward. There's a significant risk in running more than 1 in a 40.

I also agree with Dom that Cube curators should be very careful with non-basic hosers i.e. I know the Antwerp asseverators are fans of Wasteland but my playgroup just about revolted the one week I had 'em in there with Loam and Crucible, which was really funny but ONLY ONCE!! PoP would also induce aPoPlexy and Anathemancer is an ... wait, that would be fine. I think 4 Tec Edges in funsies draft are a good place to start.

Another crucible-ial concept is that increasing the power level of your fixing necessitates fewer slots be used for it i.e. if nobody plays cluestones then WHY PRINT THEM IN THE GODDAMN FIRST PLACE DGJDFHKGjfdhgkdfjh.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yowza. Busted links are busted!

Are you trying to show card images? [ci]Plateau[/ci] is probably the tag you're looking for. (I'M SORRY I KNOW THERE SHOULD BE BUTTONS FOR THIS IT'S ON MY TO DO LIST I SWEAR)
 
So I'm currently thinking about the following configuration: shocks, buddies, karoos (or maybe filters?) and 5 miscellaneous lands in the main cube, then make 14 card packs and have the 'basic land slot' be one of the vivids or one of hallimar depths, sejiri steppe, teetering peaks, dakmor salvage or llanowar reborn, with a pool of maybe 5 of each to generate packs from. I haven't yet figured out if this is even remotely sensible, but it seems like it should offer some interesting choices, or at least some actual marginal value if they pop out 15th pick like basic lands do.

I should probably actually make a thread for my list at some point, and/or start purchasing cards for it.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
So I'm currently thinking about the following configuration: shocks, buddies, karoos (or maybe filters?) and 5 miscellaneous lands in the main cube, then make 14 card packs and have the 'basic land slot' be one of the vivids or one of hallimar depths, sejiri steppe, teetering peaks, dakmor salvage or llanowar reborn, with a pool of maybe 5 of each to generate packs from. I haven't yet figured out if this is even remotely sensible, but it seems like it should offer some interesting choices, or at least some actual marginal value if they pop out 15th pick like basic lands do.

I should probably actually make a thread for my list at some point, and/or start purchasing cards for it.

Have you looked at the thread somewhere in here about the "Utility Land Draft"? It provides a similar feel without being so random, and has a nice element of public information like the dual faced cards did in innistrad (Well, the ones that were worth paying attention to anyways)
 

CML

Contributor
if they're all going 15th pick then isn't it random who gets them? (a reductio ad absurdum but still worth thinking about) -- why not another 'actual' card instead? etc.

the util land draft solves all
 
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