Allies were the dumbest forever and ever.
General Worst Limited Mechanics
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Miracles.
Nope, those all encourage you to have gamestates that do a thing. Miracles are bomb rares with an added bomb keyword because why the fuck not and bad luck you just lost to doublebombtopdeck gg no re
Ripple may repeatedly lead to the same gamestate in draft, but at least it's not about fuck you blowouts and nothing else.
Ripple may repeatedly lead to the same gamestate in draft, but at least it's not about fuck you blowouts and nothing else.
Ripple may repeatedly lead to the same gamestate in draft, but at least it's not about fuck you blowouts and nothing else.
I mean, banding is an abortion, but not specifically abortive in limited, it mostly just doesn't exist.
Phasing is just a bad flicker with stupid rules baggage. It doesn't do anything offensive to limited.
Ripple does something offensive to limited (same-y gamestates due to spamming one card being effective), but isn't super broken, just a bit meh after a while.
Haunt is memory issues? I don't remember the issue explicitly with clash. Recover does seem a bit knob for memory issues, forgotten triggers and feel-bad-ness, but I propose that fuck that miracle is worse for feel-bad-ness. Champion an X was mostly bad due to the problems of picking your tribe and just grabbing every in-tribe card that comes by, right?
Phasing is just a bad flicker with stupid rules baggage. It doesn't do anything offensive to limited.
Ripple does something offensive to limited (same-y gamestates due to spamming one card being effective), but isn't super broken, just a bit meh after a while.
Haunt is memory issues? I don't remember the issue explicitly with clash. Recover does seem a bit knob for memory issues, forgotten triggers and feel-bad-ness, but I propose that fuck that miracle is worse for feel-bad-ness. Champion an X was mostly bad due to the problems of picking your tribe and just grabbing every in-tribe card that comes by, right?
you can't just compare negatives, but also the positives. these mechanics have very few
- phasing isn't really flicker because things phasing in don't trigger ETBs because... because... i don't know what the because is. nobody does. what the hell is phasing? nobody knows the rules for it. it tacks this whole extra zone-but-not-zone onto the game only for this one mechanic.
- haunt is 100% memory issues and its just weird and doesn't do a good job of conveying anything. it isn't particularly appealing or fun. always the response i see to haunt cards is "ugh we have to keep track of this now?"
- recover is weird, memory issues, and leads to repetitive gameplay. you need to be able to play the game to enjoy a mechanic and if the mechanic isn't possible to play with then nope. usable on mtgo, awful in paper
[09:07:44] Jason Waddell: recover is one of those mechanics that
[09:07:53] Jason Waddell: if it got posted to a custom card forum you'd be like
[09:08:02] Jason Waddell: "you're trying too hard here"
- "I don't remember the issue explicitly with clash" exactly! it is entirely forgettable. you can't build around clash because you have to raise your curve to beat the other people and then you're just playing a bunch of raised curve cards for no reason?? and you lose on ties. also look at all that text. sucks to read. clash is probably partially responsible for NWO. and it takes this time to do this thing and then get this other effect unrelated to the card? why is my counterspell milling 4? why do i care? in fact, i bet others can echo this sentiment, i get to the part that says clash on clash cards and i just pretty much trail off and stop caring. that's the sign of a bad bad bad mechanic.
it has the same kind of problem as miracle where it is super swingy except they put it on bad cards so it is less obvious. hah! i just realized it has synergy with miracle, what an awful match made in hell.
the 2nd best thing clash ever did was be a bad scry 1.
the best thing clash ever did was release the ants after someone cunning wished for it after they cast enter the infinite putting emrakul on top after casting omniscience. that's a whole lot of ants being released.
- champion? what is that even supposed to be? what does that mean? okay, I get the rules, but what the hell does this represent? and why does it represent that? it is a tribal synergy sort of mechanic? except it is a drawback mechanic? what. not to mention rules weirdness of killing the thing in response, and the feelbads.
[09:04:11] Jason Waddell: yeah, it really confused me as a new player
[09:04:23] Jason Waddell: I was like "have I not understood the word champion?"
- miracle while it has negatives, it at least has appeal. in the right environ it can be an interesting puzzle to set up. or it can be something big, splashy, and ridiculous. or it can be an efficient card. and it certainly is memorable. i hate bonfire with a passion, burn it alive.
- phasing isn't really flicker because things phasing in don't trigger ETBs because... because... i don't know what the because is. nobody does. what the hell is phasing? nobody knows the rules for it. it tacks this whole extra zone-but-not-zone onto the game only for this one mechanic.
- haunt is 100% memory issues and its just weird and doesn't do a good job of conveying anything. it isn't particularly appealing or fun. always the response i see to haunt cards is "ugh we have to keep track of this now?"
- recover is weird, memory issues, and leads to repetitive gameplay. you need to be able to play the game to enjoy a mechanic and if the mechanic isn't possible to play with then nope. usable on mtgo, awful in paper
[09:07:44] Jason Waddell: recover is one of those mechanics that
[09:07:53] Jason Waddell: if it got posted to a custom card forum you'd be like
[09:08:02] Jason Waddell: "you're trying too hard here"
- "I don't remember the issue explicitly with clash" exactly! it is entirely forgettable. you can't build around clash because you have to raise your curve to beat the other people and then you're just playing a bunch of raised curve cards for no reason?? and you lose on ties. also look at all that text. sucks to read. clash is probably partially responsible for NWO. and it takes this time to do this thing and then get this other effect unrelated to the card? why is my counterspell milling 4? why do i care? in fact, i bet others can echo this sentiment, i get to the part that says clash on clash cards and i just pretty much trail off and stop caring. that's the sign of a bad bad bad mechanic.
it has the same kind of problem as miracle where it is super swingy except they put it on bad cards so it is less obvious. hah! i just realized it has synergy with miracle, what an awful match made in hell.
the 2nd best thing clash ever did was be a bad scry 1.
the best thing clash ever did was release the ants after someone cunning wished for it after they cast enter the infinite putting emrakul on top after casting omniscience. that's a whole lot of ants being released.
- champion? what is that even supposed to be? what does that mean? okay, I get the rules, but what the hell does this represent? and why does it represent that? it is a tribal synergy sort of mechanic? except it is a drawback mechanic? what. not to mention rules weirdness of killing the thing in response, and the feelbads.
[09:04:11] Jason Waddell: yeah, it really confused me as a new player
[09:04:23] Jason Waddell: I was like "have I not understood the word champion?"
- miracle while it has negatives, it at least has appeal. in the right environ it can be an interesting puzzle to set up. or it can be something big, splashy, and ridiculous. or it can be an efficient card. and it certainly is memorable. i hate bonfire with a passion, burn it alive.
None of those are 'worst limited mechanics' so much as the worst mechanics in the game. I'd say the mechanics that are actively bad for limited (miracle actively exacerbates the worst parts of limited: bombs) are worse that just generally bad mechanics at that. Given that Allies from the OP is a fine mechanics but (presumably) crappy in limited, I assumed that's where we were going with this.
Yay, semantics!
Yay, semantics!
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Chris Taylor
Contributor
For reference, oldies here:
Phasing basically reads: At the end of your untap step, if this is phased out, it phases in and vice versa.
Phasing out/in is like exiling, except it keeps all it's auras, counters, and doesn't "come back into play" in the literal sense. It's as close as the creature could be to actually being in play, but not dying to wrath of god.
This gave them room to play around with downsides like tefari's isle, or a new way to do the growing creature like with warping wurm. Both those cards are awful, granted, but it's a downside mechanic they didn't push because creatures sucked ass back then. What do you want?
I'd argue if it were present on a few more cards, it could be interesting. Crystal Golem was essentially Obzedat, Ghost council at uncommon about 20 years earlier. Katabatic winds (In addition to having a kickass name) is a really cool hosing card, and phasing allowed you to do really mean things but still have it be fair.
"Phases Out" was also the origional AEtherling wording back in the day, with cards like mist dragon and rainbow effreet.
Also: Reality Ripple sees some niche legacy play because of how phasing works. When a creature phases out, it brings all equipment, auras, counters with it. However, when tokens phase out (just like when you try and flicker them) they cease to exist. So phasing out batterskull's germ token leaves batterskull phased out, wondering when it's time to come back in and beat down.
Flanking I've been over before, and while it's far too complicated for no particular reason, the net effect it has on gameplay is you get to do the same basic process as group blocking (creatures team up, you divide damage among them) while attacking. Keywords also get shared among the band, so cards with flying and banding almost let you jump creatures past blockers (assuming they don't have any air defense)
Also, to give it some value while blocking, banding lets you distribute damage among your band however you want. Brawling with emrakul? belenish hero can take all 15 for you! Giant pitched battle against an opposing fatty? Throw damage around until each creature is one hit from death, but kill the creature anyway!
It's actually really awesome, and has some sweet gameplay moments. But the mechanic really does depend on both players knowing how banding works, most of which is really hard to explain in reminder text, so the mechanic got scrapped.
But play some shandalar sometime. White Weenie kicks some ass in the early game with it, before everything gets all lotus-y
Phasing basically reads: At the end of your untap step, if this is phased out, it phases in and vice versa.
Phasing out/in is like exiling, except it keeps all it's auras, counters, and doesn't "come back into play" in the literal sense. It's as close as the creature could be to actually being in play, but not dying to wrath of god.
This gave them room to play around with downsides like tefari's isle, or a new way to do the growing creature like with warping wurm. Both those cards are awful, granted, but it's a downside mechanic they didn't push because creatures sucked ass back then. What do you want?
I'd argue if it were present on a few more cards, it could be interesting. Crystal Golem was essentially Obzedat, Ghost council at uncommon about 20 years earlier. Katabatic winds (In addition to having a kickass name) is a really cool hosing card, and phasing allowed you to do really mean things but still have it be fair.
"Phases Out" was also the origional AEtherling wording back in the day, with cards like mist dragon and rainbow effreet.
Also: Reality Ripple sees some niche legacy play because of how phasing works. When a creature phases out, it brings all equipment, auras, counters with it. However, when tokens phase out (just like when you try and flicker them) they cease to exist. So phasing out batterskull's germ token leaves batterskull phased out, wondering when it's time to come back in and beat down.
Flanking I've been over before, and while it's far too complicated for no particular reason, the net effect it has on gameplay is you get to do the same basic process as group blocking (creatures team up, you divide damage among them) while attacking. Keywords also get shared among the band, so cards with flying and banding almost let you jump creatures past blockers (assuming they don't have any air defense)
Also, to give it some value while blocking, banding lets you distribute damage among your band however you want. Brawling with emrakul? belenish hero can take all 15 for you! Giant pitched battle against an opposing fatty? Throw damage around until each creature is one hit from death, but kill the creature anyway!
It's actually really awesome, and has some sweet gameplay moments. But the mechanic really does depend on both players knowing how banding works, most of which is really hard to explain in reminder text, so the mechanic got scrapped.
But play some shandalar sometime. White Weenie kicks some ass in the early game with it, before everything gets all lotus-y
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I completely agree on allies. What was the point of that? You grab as many as you can and they become gamebreakingly powerful or you ignore them completely.
Recover was also really terrible. Trying to remember the trigger felt like homework.
I'm going to defend phasing a little bit. A lot of the complaints about it stem mostly from how incongruent it is with the rules, making it hard to understand and inconsistent. However, when phasing first appeared, the rules were in a completely different version and all these incompatibility issues didn't exist. When the new rules were written with terms like "zones" and concepts like "flickering" in mind, phasing had to be kludged into to ensure backwards compatibility, so it SEEMS like a shitty design in retrospect.
Phasing also had a bunch of pretty good cards at the time. Vodalian Illusionist, Frenetic Efreet, Rainbow Efreet, Teferi's Honor Guard and Ertai's Familiar all come to mind.
Anyway, phasing was definitely good for limited. Only being on the table half the time helped clear up board stall both by allowing those who had it to be aggressively costed and because you couldn't just sit back and block. Along with the aggressively oriented flanking, phasing helped make Mirage/Visions/Weatherlight draft a pleasantly paced format, which was good becuase Ice Age Draft was an unplayable mess and people needed some faith that limited wasn't just a novel way to open booster packs.
Recover was also really terrible. Trying to remember the trigger felt like homework.
I'm going to defend phasing a little bit. A lot of the complaints about it stem mostly from how incongruent it is with the rules, making it hard to understand and inconsistent. However, when phasing first appeared, the rules were in a completely different version and all these incompatibility issues didn't exist. When the new rules were written with terms like "zones" and concepts like "flickering" in mind, phasing had to be kludged into to ensure backwards compatibility, so it SEEMS like a shitty design in retrospect.
Phasing also had a bunch of pretty good cards at the time. Vodalian Illusionist, Frenetic Efreet, Rainbow Efreet, Teferi's Honor Guard and Ertai's Familiar all come to mind.
Anyway, phasing was definitely good for limited. Only being on the table half the time helped clear up board stall both by allowing those who had it to be aggressively costed and because you couldn't just sit back and block. Along with the aggressively oriented flanking, phasing helped make Mirage/Visions/Weatherlight draft a pleasantly paced format, which was good becuase Ice Age Draft was an unplayable mess and people needed some faith that limited wasn't just a novel way to open booster packs.
I don't think that's how banding works. It's the opposite: if you have three members of your band, and a) one has flying, b) another has fear, and c) the last is vanilla, a Grizzly Bears could block the whole band, by virtue of being able to block the vanilla.
edit: From a judge article
Attacking banding creatures "agree" to be limited by the rest of the band; what can block one of them will block them all. This is the mutual assistance.
Banding a Benalish Hero and a Serra Angel can lead to some interesting results.
Example: Jules attacks with her Banded Benalish Hero (1/1, Banding) and Serra Angel (4/4, Flying). Peter has a Balduvian Horde (5/5) Peter can declare the Horde as a blocking the Hero, and the Serra Angel will be blocked with it, even though the Angel has Flying and the Horde doesn't.
Cipher wasn't well tuned but I don't think the underlying mechanic is the worst. Not great, but not the worst.
Infect was less poisonous than allies.
Infect was less poisonous than allies.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
The fact that you have to debate what banding did automatically makes it a terrible mechanic.
Infect is the WOAT in my eyes
Infect is the WOAT in my eyes
Jason, I think you're being a bit overdramatic. Umara Raptor makes for a perfectly fine Wind Drake, with no other allies in your deck.
Can't really say the same about about Plague Stinger.
Can't really say the same about about Plague Stinger.
I didn't title a thread like this to not be overdramatic.
- I thought haunt was great, you could get some great play out of them with proactive decisions about future plays, but for the most part haunt creatures just encouraged them to print more good abilities on creatures in the set.
- I like Clash, I just played it like spell + both players scry 1 and I was usually just pleasantly surprised when I won the clash.
- Recover was a sweet way to get extra cards out of multiple colours and give games tonnes of stages.
- Ripple is a mechanic that I think has a lot of potential in limited.
Soulshift got pretty fucking overwhelming fast. Way too many things to think about while drafting.
Reinforce was pretty stressful to play around all the time.
Invasion's hyper colour matters cards made you really stressed out when playing. Having most of your removal countered by colour changers was pretty balls.
Ninja was annoying it was kinda annoying with all the rules discussion that resulted.
I liked untappers but many people didn't.
Half of me likes morph in limited and the other half of me found it led to rather ugly environments.
People found threshold could lead to really weird uncomfortable games, especially given the disparity of a decks ability to attack or fill graveyards in various colours.
Devour looks like it could have used way more help but, ya know, I never played that set.
I found sunburst kinda weird and uncomfortable
I also found in M/M/M drafts affinity created a real disparity between your shitty draft creatures and plays, and super aggressive above the curve creature + equipment decks. (Drafting artifact lands in mirrodin was also hard for me to call)
Theros shitty removal dynamic turned out alright but had discomfort and problems of it's own.
I really didn't like the dimir encode dynamic, though I feel like it might be neat if reimplemented.
i actually do know how phasing works, i was just poking fun at people not knowing how it works. i wasn't around for when it was new though, so i only see it from the perspective of new players being exposed to it (including myself). i concede defeat here.
cipher is ok, the cards were bad, but the mechanic itself could've been better.
cipher is ok, the cards were bad, but the mechanic itself could've been better.