General What are the hallmarks of a "riptide-style" cube to you?

scymrian

scymrian

Hey, all! First post here - I've been lurking the forums for a little while, and very rarely post in the Cube Talk discord. Simply, I don't actually play enough Magic to want to be loud in the community. That said, when I do play, Cube is where it's at to me. So, I listen to some Cube-focused podcasts, and surf wildly through Cobra, and lurk here.

Which brings me to my question - I've seen some cubes described, whether on Cobra descriptions, or in the forums here, or on a podcast, as "Riptide Lab-style." I definitely pick up on a vibe to some of the cubes discussed here, but such subjective language always strikes my curiosity.

What does "Riptide-style" mean to you? I'm curious, especially if it's a phrase you've used yourself, but even if you've never used those words, what ideas do the term imply to you?
 
gaytransmulldrifter

gaytransmulldrifter

I don't think that there is a strict definition of what it means for a cube to be "riptide-style" and I think it means different things to different people, but here are some things that I associate it with:
-Eschewing a strict focus on power for a focus on synergies and the interactions between cards. Raw rate is generally toned down in favor of cards that can be built around. This doesn't mean that there will be no cards included purely on rate, but riptide cubes tend to exclude cards like Ragavan that just do their busted thing with no help.
-Singleton breaks to get redundancy for scarce or unique effects. Breaking singleton on lands also used to be an extremely riptide thing to do but I think is more associated with Lucky Paper Radio these days.
-Cube design as game design project first and foremost. I like to say that the riptide ethos is like "okay cube seems cool, what if we put any amount of thought into it whatsoever".
-Emphasis on pet cards or "weird stuff", and powering the cube appropriately to support them. I think a riptide designer is much more likely to say "well this card is my favorite, so I will make sure it is playable" than to say "sucks that my favorite card isn't good enough for my cube".
-A general distaste for the dogma of vintage and high powered cube design, particularly back in the day. Oldhead riptiders often talk about how they disliked how many slots were "wasted" in vintage cubes on cards that weren't fun, weren't good, or didn't fit into their design goals.

I think a lot of this stuff is more popular than it used to be, so the clarity on what makes a cube "riptide" has become less clear as a lot of the things that made this place different back in the day are now considered common sense.
 
inscho

inscho

gaytransmulldrifter said:
I think a lot of this stuff is more popular than it used to be, so the clarity on what makes a cube "riptide" has become less clear as a lot of the things that made this place different back in the day are now considered common sense.
Click to expand...

It’s funny to think about. 9ish years ago when I started my cube it felt like I was venturing into unknown territory….cherry-picking interesting ideas from more senior Riptiders and putting my own spin on things. Now I see countless other lists on cubecobra doing similar stuff to the point that I’m starting to feel like my cube is fairly old-fashioned lol.

Cube design theory has changed a lot over the years, and there’s a lot more people invested in it than their used to be. Popularity, visibility, and card printings have put cube in a really great spot. There’s enough cards now that you can do just about anything you want, and enough resources out there to help you figure out how to do it.

This place was very special when it was bustling. It still is. Cube discourse just feels far more decentralized now.

Edit: As far as quintessentially-riptidian goes….for me, it’s a lineage of ideas starting with a lot of principles Grillo was exploring
 
Last edited:
Nanonox

Nanonox

scymrian said:
What does "Riptide-style" mean to you?
Click to expand...
Gaytransmulldrifter gave a really good answer. I’ll add my point of view

1. Generally (not always!) lower or mid power level cards with a pretty tight power band.

2. Making a “decks not cards” format (rather than “cards not decks”), where you build synergistic engines that are greater than the sum of their parts.

3. Related to the above, no GRBS (game ruining bullshit) that would invalidate your whole engine. Could be GBRS in terms of play patterns too.

4. Some common themes (usually GY centric with spell velocity built payoffs).

5. Always a guild/shard/wedge that messes up your perfect archetype distribution and has you scrapping multiple cube projects.
 
shamizy

shamizy

It's kind of getting lost in the shuffle nowadays with how many more cube resources there are, but there was a time when the go-to for base cube design was vintage cubes and whatever certain subsets of users were claiming as the "best" options for inclusion.

Discussion wasn't nearly as open or engaging across the web. Gameplay seemed to be mostly an afterthought; it was more whether X is better than Y and worth the swap. There was fewer exploratory designs where people would really think deeply about the type of environment and gameplay they wanted to craft for their players and more in favor of sheer power and value generation. This only got exacerbated as Magic design principles have shifted heavily towards pure value driven card designs due to focusing on multiplayer Magic.

There are so many cube-centric resources that weren't readily available back then. Podcasts galore, multiple people writing articles with regularity, CubeCobra becoming a centralized hub for all things cube, etc. Lucky Paper Radio has also done an incredible job in serving as a platform for different types of discussion accessible to designers everywhere.

Right now I'd say it's more a power level thing than anything; the most powerful vintage cube selections will mostly ignore gameplay as the main focus and focus on individual cards for power level. Synergies are kind of an afterthought whereas here it's a bigger focus when it comes to archetypal design. Think of miserable mechanics like Initiative and to a lesser extent Monarch, fiddly experience counters for something like Otharri, Sun's Glory, or just stupid ass card designs like Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes or Comet, Stellar Pup. These wouldn't really be found on the cubes most people build around here. I'd say I have a cube that's on a higher power band than most other users here, but I wouldn't touch any of these due to how miserable a play experience they generate.

Breaking singleton, deploying more narrow build-arounds, and straight up ignoring egregious power outliers are much more acceptable now than they might have been a decade ago. So it's not really a Riptide thing anymore as it's permeated more through cube as more designers came around to the idea that maybe most powerful =/= the best way to do things.

Designing for the games and player experiences you want is a bigger focus than any individual card inclusions. Figuring out how different cards and mechanics work in tandem to create engaging gameplay. Coming across a specific idea and figuring out ways to make it work as a whole archetype.
 
shamizy

shamizy

Yeah, the only reason I even found this place years back was through Jason's articles on CFB a decade plus ago. Everywhere else online was pretty uninspiring in terms of discussion and he was the only one on a bigger site that was putting out unique cube content diving a bit deeper into gameplay and synergies focusing on the bigger picture when it came to environmental design.
 
scymrian

scymrian

Thank you all! Arlo, your point about Salvation is probably the point that really puts it into perspective for me. I became heavily invested in Magic around the time of original Innistrad, but in all of my consumption, I just never really lurked Salvation at all, so that's the history point I missed out on. The early Cube Design content I would absorb would largely be Usman preaching about supporting aggro with intent, so the philosophy of using intent in design to shape the games instead of just plopping in whatever the strong cards happen to me has always been what I've been exposed to. Interesting to see the history behind it all!
 
ravnic

ravnic

gaytransmulldrifter said:
Also probably worth noting that the dominant MTG cube discussion forum when Riptide was founded was MTG Salvation, and you can probably trace a lot of the seeds of these ideas back to a desire to NOT design cubes like Salvation did lol.
Click to expand...

That was my story exactly. I was a weitd outsider for a while in the mtgsalvation cube boards. The people there were nice mostly, but I just couldn't understand why they wanted me to cut Savannah Lions so badly!
 
MilesOfficial

MilesOfficial

This thread made me look back on my MTGS days, and wow, I really went out of my way to frame my Cube as "not as hardcore as everyone else's" because I remember getting called stupid for talking about anything that wasn't powermax. I still have plenty in common with the design sensibilities of the mid-2010s and feel like something of an outside opinion here, but the vibe is great and the analysis is spectacular. I don't have anything more to add than what everyone else has already said, and I'm glad that Jason's articles ended up spawning this whole community that still to me seems like it's on the cutting edge of perspective and theory, even if it's not terribly active anymore.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

gaytransmulldrifter said:
it's hilarious that people keep saying like "oh but this place ain't active like it was" like i'm sure shit was popping on here in like 2014 but y'all this is a traditional web forum that still gets daily posts in 2025. that's an amazing thing to have.
Click to expand...
It helps that four or five of us are both terminally online and simultaneously too boomerpilled to learn how Reddit works.
 
shamizy

shamizy

gaytransmulldrifter said:
it also helps that talking about cube on reddit sucks lmao
Click to expand...
Yup. I use reddit to keep up with other hobbies, but it's a miserable forum experience for actual discussion. And you'll never be able to accurately reference anything in the future unless you've saved the link.

It's the main reason I don't use discord either for cube discussion. Voice chat or sharing screens? Sure, makes sense. Anything written that I'd want to refer to in the future? No thanks. An actual online forum has always been the best option in the long run.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top