General What are the hallmarks of a "riptide-style" cube to you?

[shamizy]

is ragavan considered pretty powerful? He seemed cool and I was going to add him in a pretty big update im making to my cube. But I am super bad at judging the overall power or cards so would prefer not to include it if it’s going to be game breaking.

also does “rate” just mean “power” in this context?

Ragavan's power is contextual. If it's left uncontested early in the game backed by a ton of efficient removal it can run away with it like it did in Modern for a while, but if you have enough early blockers or ways to gum up the board then it quickly gets bottled up. In a vacuum it's a pretty powerful card, but it doesn't have the raw power of other cards higher in the curve that can completely dominate boards. At the end of the day it's still just a 2/1 and creatures are bigger way earlier nowadays. I've had it straight up stopped on the draw by a classic Wall of Omens gumming up the board.

Creatures are more common in cube than Constructed so I don't feel like it's anywhere near as powerful or game-warping as it has been in Constructed. Ragavan has a more finite window where it can be very powerful before getting outclassed.

 

[wahoopride]

Ragavan's power is contextual. If it's left uncontested early in the game backed by a ton of efficient removal it can run away with it like it did in Modern for a while, but if you have enough early blockers or ways to gum up the board then it quickly gets bottled up. In a vacuum it's a pretty powerful card, but it doesn't have the raw power of other cards higher in the curve that can completely dominate boards. At the end of the day it's still just a 2/1 and creatures are bigger way earlier nowadays. I've had it straight up stopped on the draw by a classic Wall of Omens gumming up the board.

Creatures are more common in cube than Constructed so I don't feel like it's anywhere near as powerful or game-warping as it has been in Constructed. Ragavan has a more finite window where it can be very powerful before getting outclassed.

Thanks. This makes me think its worth giving it a try.

 

[ravnic]

Ragavan's problem is how snowbally it is. I think it's often fine when the monkey player is on the draw, but on the play, there is really only a tiny window. And a 1-drop that can run away with the game so easily, without any support, is a red flag for many cube designers (at least it is one for me).

 

[gaytransmulldrifter]

is ragavan considered pretty powerful? He seemed cool and I was going to add him in a pretty big update im making to my cube. But I am super bad at judging the overall power or cards so would prefer not to include it if it’s going to be game breaking.

also does “rate” just mean “power” in this context?

I would say Ragavan is considered pretty powerful, yeah, but like others said power is always contextual. My point with mentioning Ragavan there was that it doesn't really have many "hooks". It's not a card that encourages you to build around it, or take advantage of it's synergies. You just play it on turn 1, hope it doesn't get bolted, and often run away with the game if it doesn't.

"Rate" in the context of Magic means "how much do you get for your mana". For example, you could say that Jewel Thief has a "better rate" than Nessian Courser because it's giving you more value and abilities for the same amount of mana.

 

[Nemo]

So many cards would awesome if the rate wasn't all wrong. Right now I'm lamenting Umbral Collar Zealot in particular, because I just can't get behind a black 3/2 for 1B with nothing but upside. It sounds really fun to play that with the WB humans/aristocrats deck, I think it's just too strong and efficient. If that was costed at 2B, or if its stats were 2/1 or 2/2, I'd run it. Maybe they'll take another stab at this design in a jumpstart deck or something down the line.

Figuring out an overall power level and then evaluating the various cards and archetypes and decks within that context is pretty tricky. It's been helpful to read what people say about that stuff on these boards.

 

[ravnic]

Yeah. I would've loved Umbral Collar Zealot as a 2/1 or 2/2 that said "surveil 2" instead. I want more power in th utility and less in the stats.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Black 3/2 + upside for 1B isn't totally new - compare Wight (unplayed ~everywhere) or Tenacious Underdog (sweet card and role player but nothing offensive). If its stats are too weak then it would just be another sac engine ala Viscera Seer - having decent stats means a more normal deck can play it and then get to dabble in sac stuff too

Personally Umbral Collar Zealot is a card I've wanted in that exact form for over a decade so I'm thrilled!

 

[inscho]

Black 3/2 + upside for 1B isn't totally new - compare Wight (unplayed ~everywhere) or Tenacious Underdog (sweet card and role player but nothing offensive). If its stats are too weak then it would just be another sac engine ala Viscera Seer - having decent stats means a more normal deck can play it and then get to dabble in sac stuff too

Personally Umbral Collar Zealot is a card I've wanted in that exact form for over a decade so I'm thrilled!

If only it sacrificed itself!

 

[ravnic]

Black 3/2 + upside for 1B isn't totally new - compare Wight (unplayed ~everywhere) or Tenacious Underdog (sweet card and role player but nothing offensive). If its stats are too weak then it would just be another sac engine ala Viscera Seer - having decent stats means a more normal deck can play it and then get to dabble in sac stuff too

Yeah, personally, that summarizes my problem with modern magic design. These days everything needs to be well statted. I think the game was much more interesting when you had to choose between stats and value.

If you then add the rates we're getting these days (for several years now, tbf) that leads to the other problem. If every creature can take away a larger part of your life total (while generating value) games will become faster and the power level increases.

I think my issue is best illustrated by how many players uttered their worries when Foundations made Llanowar Elves standard legal for at least five years. Such an innocent enabler that didn't hurt standard for many years in the past. But now we get two mana 3/2s, three mana 4/4s and four mana 6/5s with upsides (plural). An these upsides mean they outclass most removal spells as well.

In old school magic, you need something like Merfolk Looter into Arrogant Wurm to generate value while adding a lot of stats. These days, honestly, we aren't that far off from just getting a 2G 4/4 trample that draws a card on etb. No surprise people are scared by a little mana dork then.

 

[Zoss]

I'm a little biased because I'm pretty much fully off retail cards these days but I think Umbral Collar Zealot would have been actively better as a 2/2 with menace or a 2/1 with deathtouch or something. 3/2 for 1C doesn't feel like a statline anyone should get without a downside, and then only in red or black. Somehow Kalonian Tusker is fine in my book, though. When synergy pieces Just Kill People, you don't get as much time nor the incentive to make them Do The Thing.

 

[Nemo]

If every creature can take away a larger part of your life total (while generating value) games will become faster and the power level increases.

This is my thing. I could try to dial up the rest of the cube to make 3/2 for 2 okay, but I don't think I want that. I don't want the format to be so fast that you can never afford to whiff on an early turn. I also don't think I'd be able to find enough cards at that power level without dozens of random mechanics and wordy cards to the environment.

Black 3/2 + upside for 1B isn't totally new - compare Wight (unplayed ~everywhere) or Tenacious Underdog (sweet card and role player but nothing offensive). If its stats are too weak then it would just be another sac engine ala Viscera Seer - having decent stats means a more normal deck can play it and then get to dabble in sac stuff too

It all depends on the power level of everything around it. I think the Wight would be fine for me but, it enters tapped and the opponent can easily avoid the token generation. The Underdog enters untapped and it's harder to stop it from generating card advantage. It also provides early pressure and can be a useful early defender for a slower deck. It does everything. I'm not convinced that "do it all" cards should also have aggressive stat lines. If it was a normal stat card, then it would be appealing as a glue card, but I'm reminded of the way people talked about Pia and Kiran Nalaar once on these forums. Sure it's a glue card, but really it's just a strong card in any deck almost regardless of what you put around it.

I fully admit that I don't understand all of the implications and trade-offs of bumping up the power level across the board until cards like this are just normal cards. It's an interesting topic that I'd like to understand better.

 

[LadyMapi]

An these upsides mean they outclass most removal spells as well.

Ironically, I think one of the big reasons for the inflated stats (outside of the most popular Magic format literally having six times the life total to chew through) is that removal has been slowly getting better over time. If you can kill of most creatures in the format by paying 1-2 mana at instant speed, then your threats need to cost 2-3 mana unless they can either dodge the removal somehow or carry so much value that your 4-drop getting Fatal Push'd isn't a game-swinging loss of tempo.

Personally, I think something like Umbral Collar Zealot is still fine in a more Ravnic-y cube, but you'd have to mentally classify it as an aggro bomb instead of as a synergy piece. After all, one of the big advantages cube has over constructed is that it's way more tolerant of power differences.