I brought it up because W&6 got banned from Legacy thanks to its interaction with Wasteland and ability to ping away utility creatures. Who knows, maybe power creep has caught up with the interaction in the last 7 years, but I kinda doubt it.
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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It's been a little while, but I've had another Balduvian Trading Post-esque idea that I would like to share.
There are a number of card templates that more-or-less scale linearly with cost. For example:
Why not lean into that and have a cube where you spend one cube slot on any number of these cards, and have the drafter pick which one they want to use? In other words, the draft includes X spells where the value of X is decided while drafting instead of mid-game.
The real question, of course, is whether or not there are enough of these templates to work with...
There are a number of card templates that more-or-less scale linearly with cost. For example:
Why not lean into that and have a cube where you spend one cube slot on any number of these cards, and have the drafter pick which one they want to use? In other words, the draft includes X spells where the value of X is decided while drafting instead of mid-game.
The real question, of course, is whether or not there are enough of these templates to work with...
My guess is most players are not prepared for or especially interested in deliberating on where they want the exact cost:effect of some basic game effect to be. This is a bit like adding several extra "how many lands of each color do I want?" phases to the draft. It probably doesn't help that most of these cards will be quite basic, aimed at players with advanced game understanding.
Anyone here draft much BLB or ECL? What went right or wrong for tribal kindred from the drafting perspective?
I've drafted neither, but heard complaints that ECL was too on rails. A lot of you probably know that Onslaught is my third favorite thing in this game (behind Timmy bombs and 2007-2008), so I'd love any insight that could get me more knowledgeable in that area.
I've drafted neither, but heard complaints that ECL was too on rails. A lot of you probably know that Onslaught is my third favorite thing in this game (behind Timmy bombs and 2007-2008), so I'd love any insight that could get me more knowledgeable in that area.
In Dom’s latest podcast episode, he talks a bit about ECL draft.
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/dominarias-judgment/id1616072028?i=1000752063299
I haven’t drafted either, so can’t help!
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/dominarias-judgment/id1616072028?i=1000752063299
I haven’t drafted either, so can’t help!
I drafted BLB a decent amount, it definitely did a much better job of being a typal (kindred is the card type) set than ECL. You only had very few cards that actually cared for creature types and all or most of the lower rarity ones where like "if you control a mouse" or something. It was synergistic to draft all the rats because they all helped or cared about threshold, but it was not punishing to pick off-type creatures. In fact, it was sometimes the right decision to pick that bat 5-drop for your deck rather than a rat or whatever you was doing.
ECL seemed to be just "choose one of five types early and hope to have an open lane" mostly. It made almost all the mistakes original LRW did almost two decades ago.
ECL seemed to be just "choose one of five types early and hope to have an open lane" mostly. It made almost all the mistakes original LRW did almost two decades ago.
Got a timestamp? Don't love podcasts.
I do not :/
I played a ton of sealed and a fair amount of draft. It was fine. I liked the gameplay of the format reasonably well, but hated the draft part. I'd rather like the gameplay than the draft (see: Tarkir Dragonstorm, which was unbelievably fun to play even in mirror mode hell on Arena) but the draft was so bad and it felt so linear that I was cheering on Ninja Turtles if it meant I wouldn't have to draft elves again without somehow seeing any of the busted uncommons after getting a 5th and 6th pick elf signal.
BLB was a little better, just because the tribal payoffs were so much milder.
I don't like 5 archetype draft formats as a rule. But they can be done well when they're not overly prescriptive. For Ninja Turtles, I'm drafting allied color pairs maybe 30% of the time so far and it's been great. It feels like the "light touch" support is way more supported than in Lorwyn despite only having half the cards.
BLB was a little better, just because the tribal payoffs were so much milder.
I don't like 5 archetype draft formats as a rule. But they can be done well when they're not overly prescriptive. For Ninja Turtles, I'm drafting allied color pairs maybe 30% of the time so far and it's been great. It feels like the "light touch" support is way more supported than in Lorwyn despite only having half the cards.
Ok. That's what I figured. Which is good because it means my intuitive logic is on the right track.
I saw a lot of the Elf cards in ECL and it seemed clear that every draft would have 2-3 people forcing Elves after a BG first pick uncommon bomb.
I suspect that making the payoffs monocolored would give more opportunity to play Gx Elves instead of just BG, too.
I saw a lot of the Elf cards in ECL and it seemed clear that every draft would have 2-3 people forcing Elves after a BG first pick uncommon bomb.
I suspect that making the payoffs monocolored would give more opportunity to play Gx Elves instead of just BG, too.
Thoughts on any of the following cards:
Just had a cube session with 9 people (cube report later this month hopefully) and my gears are turning with swaps again. There's over a month till the next set with Strixhaven so it's the perfect time to re-evaluate some slots. I'm going to try cutting a cycle of lands (still on double fetch + shocks + surveils + mixed cycle) which opens up 10 slots to mess around with.
EKJ would just be (mostly) an upgrade over Fiend Hunter which I still like as a card. Same relevant typing but with greater flexibility in card type targets and sniping the most important creatures.
I'm always in the market to up the wizard subtype count in my cube to make Flame of Anor full value a thing, maybe even give Harmonic Prodigy a whir sometime if it makes sense. I like that Tidebinder is a Stifle effect with a lot more utility and can also snipe something like a Sheoldred, the Apocalypse trigger in the right scenario. The population of draw 2 effects has increased in recent years with cards like Tersa Lightshatter and Fear of Missing Out entering my environment which makes Pyromancer much more likely to trigger than before. Can you imagine being able to double that off a Prodigy?
I'm kind of iffy on Harmonizer but it would be a cool angle for green to attack from utilizing land drops more effectively. Also goes nuts with a combo kill off Summon: Titan.
Finally I'm interested in expanding the Tinker/Welder suite. I have Portal to Phyrexia right now which is a beating if you don't have a way to interact, but I'm not against it since my cube is 450 so it won't be in every pool. However, other options are worth taking a look at and the likes of The Endstone and also Bolas's Citadel have piqued my interest.
Leaning towards adding 2 more cards in each color if possible, and these options I saved to my maybeboard caught my eye. Haven't played with any of these card aside from Harmonizer in EDH. Any experiences with these?
Just had a cube session with 9 people (cube report later this month hopefully) and my gears are turning with swaps again. There's over a month till the next set with Strixhaven so it's the perfect time to re-evaluate some slots. I'm going to try cutting a cycle of lands (still on double fetch + shocks + surveils + mixed cycle) which opens up 10 slots to mess around with.
EKJ would just be (mostly) an upgrade over Fiend Hunter which I still like as a card. Same relevant typing but with greater flexibility in card type targets and sniping the most important creatures.
I'm always in the market to up the wizard subtype count in my cube to make Flame of Anor full value a thing, maybe even give Harmonic Prodigy a whir sometime if it makes sense. I like that Tidebinder is a Stifle effect with a lot more utility and can also snipe something like a Sheoldred, the Apocalypse trigger in the right scenario. The population of draw 2 effects has increased in recent years with cards like Tersa Lightshatter and Fear of Missing Out entering my environment which makes Pyromancer much more likely to trigger than before. Can you imagine being able to double that off a Prodigy?
I'm kind of iffy on Harmonizer but it would be a cool angle for green to attack from utilizing land drops more effectively. Also goes nuts with a combo kill off Summon: Titan.
Finally I'm interested in expanding the Tinker/Welder suite. I have Portal to Phyrexia right now which is a beating if you don't have a way to interact, but I'm not against it since my cube is 450 so it won't be in every pool. However, other options are worth taking a look at and the likes of The Endstone and also Bolas's Citadel have piqued my interest.
Leaning towards adding 2 more cards in each color if possible, and these options I saved to my maybeboard caught my eye. Haven't played with any of these card aside from Harmonizer in EDH. Any experiences with these?
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What I dislike about EKJ is that on curve, the ability is a bit hit or miss. On the play, you will likely not hit anything and on the draw, maybe. Later in the game, it's very good though. You also lose out on Fiend Hunter + Sun Titan + sacrifice outlet if you care about that. At your power level, it feels like the card you want is Skyclave Apparition, but it's obviously not a human.
Tidebender plays well and gives you a lot of play, love it. Only reason I exclude it is that I run Storm cards and that is hard enough to pull off.
I recommend Winternight Stories. I was hesitant to add it as my only Harmonize card, but it's a simple enough mechanic to grok. With new releases, my cube is more and more GY and discard centric. In this context, Stories is both an enabler and a payoff and I am actively looking to increase the density of cards playable from the GY. I also like that it pushes Blue decks to care about creatures both with Harmonize and the actual discard ability.
Pyromancer is a cool one, but not a high pick I think. Works well with rummaging/looting, but that deck already has Tersa +Fable + Seasoned Pyromancer as threes. It could work in spells matters with cheap cantrips, but the zero power is annoying as those decks are often tempo oriented. Slower decks with Brainsurge and other draw spells might like it, but those decks are usually creature light, making the Pyromancer one of few targets. Not sure it has a great home.
I've been tempted by the Harmonizer, but I don't love its spot on the curve or the lack of evasion. Tifa seems like the way to go if you want to combo in that space.
Citadel is one of my favorite cards ever and I definitely would include it if I had Tinker, Dark Ritual and Goblin Welder. It's really cool because it cheats on mana and cards, but you can miss sometimes. You have Sensei's Divining Top as a combo with it, up to you if that is cool or bullshit.
The Endstone is one I recently added, with no real experience though. Working with lands opens the door to Green ramp or lands wanting it, which isn't always the case with these big artifacts. The life gain can be anti-aggro tech, forcing them to go big to take you out. It's also the kind of cheat target that will get you a lot of value, but won't end the game right away, giving a chance for the opponent to get back into the game and you to enjoy drawing a ton of cards.
That's right about where I was leaning as well for most of these cards, Pyromancer being the iffiest.
Big fan of more effects to draw cards and maximize graveyard interactions, extremely sick sequences for Winternight with Astrologian's Planisphere which is quickly becoming a favorite of mine. The addition of two big mana artifacts to try and go off with makes the wheels turn way more for big sequences ala Tinker or Welder but being able to use something like a fair Endstone and churning through via Emry recursions could be really cool.
I love Tifa Lockhart and I sing its praises with the possibilities, but drafters seem wholly disinterested in her as a card for some reason. It seems like minimal investment for a card that could potentially OHKO or hit for 10+ in one go. Maybe I just need to just find more ways to get it big? If it's at least a 2 power creature a fetch to jump to 8 is WAY more appealing. Harmonizer is definitely at an awkward part of the curve where I'm not sure if it's really what I want. It has done work in Constructed however, which makes me more open to giving it a run sometime.
Big fan of more effects to draw cards and maximize graveyard interactions, extremely sick sequences for Winternight with Astrologian's Planisphere which is quickly becoming a favorite of mine. The addition of two big mana artifacts to try and go off with makes the wheels turn way more for big sequences ala Tinker or Welder but being able to use something like a fair Endstone and churning through via Emry recursions could be really cool.
I love Tifa Lockhart and I sing its praises with the possibilities, but drafters seem wholly disinterested in her as a card for some reason. It seems like minimal investment for a card that could potentially OHKO or hit for 10+ in one go. Maybe I just need to just find more ways to get it big? If it's at least a 2 power creature a fetch to jump to 8 is WAY more appealing. Harmonizer is definitely at an awkward part of the curve where I'm not sure if it's really what I want. It has done work in Constructed however, which makes me more open to giving it a run sometime.
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Like, Like, Love, Meh, No, Meh, Minecraft
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Thoughts on any of the following cards:
Just had a cube session with 9 people (cube report later this month hopefully) and my gears are turning with swaps again. There's over a month till the next set with Strixhaven so it's the perfect time to re-evaluate some slots. I'm going to try cutting a cycle of lands (still on double fetch + shocks + surveils + mixed cycle) which opens up 10 slots to mess around with.
EKJ would just be (mostly) an upgrade over Fiend Hunter which I still like as a card. Same relevant typing but with greater flexibility in card type targets and sniping the most important creatures.
I'm always in the market to up the wizard subtype count in my cube to make Flame of Anor full value a thing, maybe even give Harmonic Prodigy a whir sometime if it makes sense. I like that Tidebinder is a Stifle effect with a lot more utility and can also snipe something like a Sheoldred, the Apocalypse trigger in the right scenario. The population of draw 2 effects has increased in recent years with cards like Tersa Lightshatter and Fear of Missing Out entering my environment which makes Pyromancer much more likely to trigger than before. Can you imagine being able to double that off a Prodigy?
I'm kind of iffy on Harmonizer but it would be a cool angle for green to attack from utilizing land drops more effectively. Also goes nuts with a combo kill off Summon: Titan.
Finally I'm interested in expanding the Tinker/Welder suite. I have Portal to Phyrexia right now which is a beating if you don't have a way to interact, but I'm not against it since my cube is 450 so it won't be in every pool. However, other options are worth taking a look at and the likes of The Endstone and also Bolas's Citadel have piqued my interest.
Leaning towards adding 2 more cards in each color if possible, and these options I saved to my maybeboard caught my eye. Haven't played with any of these card aside from Harmonizer in EDH. Any experiences with these?
EKJ is fine I suppose but there are so many good/cool Fiend Hunters these days. Also I think the most important creatures (/other targets) will often be the cheap ones - lots of pivotal threats coming down on Turn 2 etc these days
Tidebinder is a very tricky + swingy card that is often really good for the game but you have to decide how tolerant you are of the Stifle a fetchland sequence even at 3 mana
Love Winternight Stories, the base rate is good but the Harmonize cost is just right to make it useful in most games while making you care about stats on your creatures for a better discount. If you have lots of GY synergies it's a nice enabler + payoff of sorts in a neat package
I like Pyromancer a lot but as mentioned there are a ton of good red 3s even in that broad space. It's clean and boosts a more reactive take on UR in a way something like Tersa doesn't so that flexibility is a big selling point for me
Harmonizer at its best is very strong and flashy but you really need to be fully committed to Landfall stuff and/or Berserker aggro-combo stuff for it to stand out from its competition. It tickles me that it's another Nadu combo piece but that's not for everyone...
I'll say as someone who loves Welder and has spent too long trying to make it work in various Cubes that I'm increasingly sceptical of it in anything but the most artifact-centric format. Tinker is much less conditional ofc but finding the sweet spot of Tinker target that's worthwhile and unique without ruining the game is hard. I like Citadel in that regard (even though it's one of the absolute best targets) because I'm excited to roll the dice with it in more normal decks or in some Tinker deck that ends up drawing and casting it while The Endstone is always mid (and sometimes tapping out for it will actively hurt you!) unless you cheat it in somehow