General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Maybe Venser is what I want, actually. Bouncing a spell makes it feel much more like a 2-for-1.
Can anyone here elaborate what play patterns make Venser, Shaper Savant a great cube card? I've actually never have cast him in my entire life, for some reason.
For me, a lot of it comes down to Venser being a creature. It opens up so many more synergies and can play well in aggro, midrange and control. I think he's at his best in tempo decks though, where you can cement your advantage and the pressure from being a creature is relevant.
EOT bounce your guy, attack and return to hand with Ninja of the Deep Hours.
Counter your spell, return it to hand with Sunpearl Kirin, Nurturing Pixie or Shepherd of the Flock.
Bounce one of their lands, delaying a wrath for a turn.
Recur it with Order of Midnight and friends.
It's a clean text box that can hit either player (reset your Windbrisk Heights?) and isn't oppressive since the ETB only temporarily slows down the opponent.
EOT bounce your guy, attack and return to hand with Ninja of the Deep Hours.
Counter your spell, return it to hand with Sunpearl Kirin, Nurturing Pixie or Shepherd of the Flock.
Bounce one of their lands, delaying a wrath for a turn.
Recur it with Order of Midnight and friends.
It's a clean text box that can hit either player (reset your Windbrisk Heights?) and isn't oppressive since the ETB only temporarily slows down the opponent.
The flexibility is what makes it a great card that has stood the test of time. He's not the best counterspell or bounce spell at 4 mana, but the fact that it can shift in its role dependent on your needs is massive.
As @Nanonox mentioned there are multiple options to maximize it depending on the matchup and board-state. Scary card that could warp the game around itself? Push it back a turn on the stack. Problematic creature on board dominating combat? Bounce it back and buy yourself a turn to draw into a removal spell. Far ahead and want to lock down the game? There are very few tempo plays that are as exhilarating as an EOT Venser into a blink effect to perform a Plow Under impression setting your opponent back two land drops.
I've loved playing in U/W or Bant blink decks or U/R tempo decks over the years and it has always performed. The body is a relic of the time period it was printed, but to me it's a classic blue card doing unique things alongside all-timers like Fact or Fiction and Vendilion Clique.
As @Nanonox mentioned there are multiple options to maximize it depending on the matchup and board-state. Scary card that could warp the game around itself? Push it back a turn on the stack. Problematic creature on board dominating combat? Bounce it back and buy yourself a turn to draw into a removal spell. Far ahead and want to lock down the game? There are very few tempo plays that are as exhilarating as an EOT Venser into a blink effect to perform a Plow Under impression setting your opponent back two land drops.
I've loved playing in U/W or Bant blink decks or U/R tempo decks over the years and it has always performed. The body is a relic of the time period it was printed, but to me it's a classic blue card doing unique things alongside all-timers like Fact or Fiction and Vendilion Clique.
it's 8-15 years ago
HOWEVER
he's a versatile catch-all answer in the mid-to-late game that saves your ass from the thing you're the most afraid of, for a turn
Lowkey I am very surprised you have never tried Venser before. It seems like a perfect card for the CCC!
Bone Shards. Let's be honest, if Bone Shards isn't great for most of my decks, then my black decks need a little spice in them.
To be honest, I don't think edicts are an effect that work in today's design environment.
To be honest, I don't think edicts are an effect that work in today's design environment.
Sheoldred's Edict more or less gets around that issue by preventing tokens from being thrown off, it plays very well in my experience.
I think Bone Shards is a cooler card, but this Edict is one of the last removal spells I'd cut from my current list.
I think Bone Shards is a cooler card, but this Edict is one of the last removal spells I'd cut from my current list.
I think the nontoken edicts are fine and good in lower powered environments, accursed marauder is sweet, but chainer's edict is pretty weak when everyone has goblin tokens and saprolings and eldrazi and whatnot. But bone shards is pretty cool too. It's a bit too strong for me, but I do have angelic purge which is a similar concept, and I basically never want to cut it. Oh gosh, bone can discard too?? Flipping sweet, jelly.
I honestly would find room for both of these cards, look for the weakest links in black and keep both.
I honestly would find room for both of these cards, look for the weakest links in black and keep both.
If you have to pick one, I'd go with Bone Shards because of the synergies you mentioned. Sheoldred's Edict is potent but kinda boring, since it just does the thing - part of what makes edicts fun in my opinion is the work you need to put into making them good, if that makes sense. I'd personally rather see Sporogenic Infection or Tithing Blade in a pack over Sheoldred's Edict.
(Also, I kinda wish that Strangling Grasp was a standalone card and not the backside of a DFC...)
(Also, I kinda wish that Strangling Grasp was a standalone card and not the backside of a DFC...)
vs Note that I already run Monastery Mentor.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Zenith is much more interesting IMO
Thanks guys. I think I'll switch to Cosmogrand Zenith because it has a few advantages:
- Only 1 pip of coloured mana
- Bleeds more openly into other archetypes (+1/+1 counters, spells)
- Is both a go-wide enabler and payoff.
- The decision to attack with its 2/4 body, pump it with counters or hold it back seems interesting.
- Sequencing to get the trigger seems more interesting.
- Only 1 pip of coloured mana
- Bleeds more openly into other archetypes (+1/+1 counters, spells)
- Is both a go-wide enabler and payoff.
- The decision to attack with its 2/4 body, pump it with counters or hold it back seems interesting.
- Sequencing to get the trigger seems more interesting.
I'm fine with Adeline having a huge board presence because it seems kind of its thing. For me the issue with vigilance is just...how easy it is. Most of the time, there's no reason to just attack with it.
I've also been convinced to make this swap even though I dislike the EOE aesthetic and have fond memories with Adeline. Adeline has been troublesome more than a few times before and I'm happy to admit she's not very interesting of a card.
Add me to the recent Adeline for Zenith swap list.
I think Adeline is a very powerful card and a way to clearly highlight Humans as a theme, but the Vigilance is the big issue that I have with it in a 1v1 format. It just creates so little decision making ala Brimaz, King of Oreskos back in the day. Adeline is pretty much an auto-include in W/x Aggro and Midrange as a do-it-all package whereas Zenith encouraging sequencing decisions and with more potential lines of play across different decks. I kept Adeline in for a long time as a signpost for W/x Humans, but it's less necessary nowadays with the plethora of support we've got.
Zenith definitely encourages more of a lower curve deck to enable that double-spell ability and I think this will make for more interesting gameplay in the long run. Alongside Monastery Mentor (which also came back after an extended break) these are unique cards that can supplement the gameplan in a more controlling build with tons of burn or cantrips.
There are only so many obnoxious X/4 bodies I'm willing to include at 3 CMC before reaching the critical mass where Aggro is unable to keep up.
I think Adeline is a very powerful card and a way to clearly highlight Humans as a theme, but the Vigilance is the big issue that I have with it in a 1v1 format. It just creates so little decision making ala Brimaz, King of Oreskos back in the day. Adeline is pretty much an auto-include in W/x Aggro and Midrange as a do-it-all package whereas Zenith encouraging sequencing decisions and with more potential lines of play across different decks. I kept Adeline in for a long time as a signpost for W/x Humans, but it's less necessary nowadays with the plethora of support we've got.
Zenith definitely encourages more of a lower curve deck to enable that double-spell ability and I think this will make for more interesting gameplay in the long run. Alongside Monastery Mentor (which also came back after an extended break) these are unique cards that can supplement the gameplan in a more controlling build with tons of burn or cantrips.
There are only so many obnoxious X/4 bodies I'm willing to include at 3 CMC before reaching the critical mass where Aggro is unable to keep up.
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