General Embrace the Chaos / Cube Occasionals
- Thread starter japahn
- Start date
This one seems very ravnic speed and has the kind of high octane play patterns that suit an occasional. I'll always shill for this card, it's fun as hell.
Today someone won a game with Triskaidekaphobia. Occasionals rock.
I'm happy to hear it's working out well for you! Saw on your cube blog thread the different categories of cards you've included and that looks great!
I haven't been playing or keeping up to date, just busy with other things in life (and not very excited with giving more money to Hasbro). But I'm still happy that my cube takes up two boxes.
So cool to hear from you! Do you recall how many cards your core and your occasionals boxes each contain? And what percentage would each make up for a draft pool when you got to draft it?
I feel that 100%, it's likely that people will also hear much less from me soon, since in less than two months my daughter will be born
But even than I'm sure I will return and I would be happy to hear you're returning as well at some point. Cube is still one of the most awesome things to spend time on, it shall outlive magic!
I feel that 100%, it's likely that people will also hear much less from me soon, since in less than two months my daughter will be born
But even than I'm sure I will return and I would be happy to hear you're returning as well at some point. Cube is still one of the most awesome things to spend time on, it shall outlive magic!
360 core and 506 occasionals, the link in my signature is the exact cube list.
6.7% occasionals, because so would seed packs like:
13c/2o
14c/1o
15c
But I was experimenting with higher counts, found 13.5% to be too much but I think 10% is around the ideal spot.
Awesome to hear about your family growing!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
The good news is, the hectic period of a parent’s life doesn’t last forever. And I should know, since my daughter (and youngest) just turned 10! Dear Lord, where did the time go?!I feel that 100%, it's likely that people will also hear much less from me soon, since in less than two months my daughter will be born
But even than I'm sure I will return and I would be happy to hear you're returning as well at some point. Cube is still one of the most awesome things to spend time on, it shall outlive magic!
I'll try my very best to embrace every moment of it, even the stressful ones
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I like those quarter dots: clear without being intrusive and look quite attreactive.
I'm with you on this. Taking my older son to start university next weekend.
So currently I am using 327 core cards and 33 occasionals for a draft pod of 360 cards. That's been working pretty well, you could say. Occasionals appear in most decks, sometimes 1, 2, or even 4 or 5, and they make an impact. All the archetypes I try to support with my core still show up and build the core of these decks mostly.
There's one problem: I feel like the core supports them too well. Decks with no occasionals come up and are well-oiled machines and often perform better than those that try to cast Cruel Ultimatum or make Emrakul, the Promised End, work.
Last weekend I went to Cube Open Braunschweig, and the finals of the draft of the Casual Champions draft were Gruul Madness vs. Mono Blue Spells Control. The former had super explosive turns and managed to bring back Vengevine on turn two.
The opponent controlled the board and then cast the archaic for a single mana with counter backup.
Zero occasionals in both lists.
On one hand, I love my highly synergistic madness decks, spell slinger decks, dredge decks, what have you. On the other hand, I am a little sad that the occasionals aren't really what you're supposed to do when you try to win, at least not the more niche ones and the buildarounds. I'm so torn. I love casting Faithless Looting and discarding a couple Rootwallas, and I love going off with Talrand, or having Ninja of the Deep Hours on turn two. On the other hand, I also want the dorky and weird decks to be able to keep up with my synergistic archetypes. Not sure what to do about that.
There's one problem: I feel like the core supports them too well. Decks with no occasionals come up and are well-oiled machines and often perform better than those that try to cast Cruel Ultimatum or make Emrakul, the Promised End, work.
Last weekend I went to Cube Open Braunschweig, and the finals of the draft of the Casual Champions draft were Gruul Madness vs. Mono Blue Spells Control. The former had super explosive turns and managed to bring back Vengevine on turn two.
The opponent controlled the board and then cast the archaic for a single mana with counter backup.
Zero occasionals in both lists.
On one hand, I love my highly synergistic madness decks, spell slinger decks, dredge decks, what have you. On the other hand, I am a little sad that the occasionals aren't really what you're supposed to do when you try to win, at least not the more niche ones and the buildarounds. I'm so torn. I love casting Faithless Looting and discarding a couple Rootwallas, and I love going off with Talrand, or having Ninja of the Deep Hours on turn two. On the other hand, I also want the dorky and weird decks to be able to keep up with my synergistic archetypes. Not sure what to do about that.
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Full disclosure: I haven't had experience with implementing occasionals in my cube. But I'm seriously considering it. I've read all of the discussions, including your experience, and I like what I see.
I can compare it to retail draft rares that aren't format defining bombs. A lot of them are constructed plants, others are just weird. Usually, key uncommons are much more thought after, because they could be archetype-defining, not unreliable oddities. But sometimes someone has fun with those weird cards others pass. I remember draft with Lupine Prototype and other rares going circles around the table. It looks like the floor is 2 mana do nothing without proper support. But one guy made it work in his slow soup deck without it being all-in madness aggro. It was surprisingly refreshing as a finisher.
As I see it, it's a way to make 700+ card cube impression while having 360 card cube. Many environments have 15th picks that are fun in the right deck, but rarely pursued by drafters. Which is arguably inefficient use of space. So we use those slots for hundreds of cards instead of a dozen. Low opportunity cost for a possibility of maybe having a surprise sometimes. But not all of the time. japahn's idea was giving up your designer control.
If the goal is to make occasional module more alluring, it might make sense to put the best niche payoffs off the main list, like Vengevine and The Dawning Archaic. Those shouldn't be universal power outliers, just extra seductive for the right deck. Holy grail cards for a designer make you rethink your strategy without requiring changing the whole cube. Those are hard to find of course. Since we assume core module has all the structural support, the "fun" stuff could be in occasionals, instead of core. Like, I was drafting UR control, but now I'm excited to switch to prowess aggro. Or I was in RG madness, but this card makes me want to do slow BRG graveyard grind. Core makes sure your cube works, occasionals give it quirks.
I'm purely theorizing at this point. Just my views on how it could be done.
This doesn't seem like an issue to me. The Occasionals don't need to be defining what's best to do, they're supposed to be fun alternative directions to go. At a Cube event, you're getting two different biases: a higher intent to win from the players than you'd normally get at a casual Cube night (i.e. more risk averse drafting), and a sample size of 1 event.
I think the fact that your core Cube made such interesting and synergistic decks is the thing you should be really satisfied with. The Occasionals can win....occasionally, but their function is just as much to add flavor and diversity to the experience. Dorky and weird decks still win plenty at more casual nights, right? Do you really think if you ran an additional event at the Cube Open that no Occasionals would make the finals? I bet they would. It seems like the drafters for this event drafted very tight and got very lucky; getting mono blue at any Cube event is enough of an outlier that it shouldn't be factored into decision making IMO.
Really happy for you to have been able to go to Cube Open Braunschweig, it seems like it would've been a blast!
Like Miles, I don't think it's really an issue. However, to go back to your madness deck, I would probably have your bread and butter effects in the core module (Rootwallas, Arrogant Wurm, Wild Mongrel, Voldaren Epicure, ...). Then in the occassionals, I would have the spicy cards like Vengevine, Hollow One, Anger, Bloodghast, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Drake Haven or whatever is appropriate at your power level.
This is where I stand too, I think Oleg is spot on.
I have a "Modern 2014" cube with 264 core (with duplicates) and 270ish~ singleton occasional, 3 packs of 11 core / 4 occasionals.
I've been enjoying slotting in banned (in 2014) cards into the occasionals like Jace, the mind sculptor, deathrite shaman, treasure cruise, bloodbraid elf, etc so they can show up sometimes to flex why they got banned at that time but not consistently ruin every draft.
I've found that because the curve of the core cards is so low (1-3 mv), people reach for the occasionals more expensive card advantage (4-5) and we see keranos, god of storms or dragonlord ojutai often be the unexpected hero out of the sideboard.
I'm currently of the opinion that all the "synergy" occasionals need to fit into an existing strong AND dense deck in the core to not feel like a trap. I've had a lot of issues trying to seed in affinity cards into the occasionals, but without the core affinity being dense enough. I had thought 2 mox opal, 2 cranial plating, 2 arcbound ravager in the core would be strong enough to entice people to pick the occasionals but even though they're all strong cards there's just not enough artifacts density wise per pack and it makes the drafters feel silly for trying out etched champion or steel overseer.
I've been enjoying slotting in banned (in 2014) cards into the occasionals like Jace, the mind sculptor, deathrite shaman, treasure cruise, bloodbraid elf, etc so they can show up sometimes to flex why they got banned at that time but not consistently ruin every draft.
I've found that because the curve of the core cards is so low (1-3 mv), people reach for the occasionals more expensive card advantage (4-5) and we see keranos, god of storms or dragonlord ojutai often be the unexpected hero out of the sideboard.
I'm currently of the opinion that all the "synergy" occasionals need to fit into an existing strong AND dense deck in the core to not feel like a trap. I've had a lot of issues trying to seed in affinity cards into the occasionals, but without the core affinity being dense enough. I had thought 2 mox opal, 2 cranial plating, 2 arcbound ravager in the core would be strong enough to entice people to pick the occasionals but even though they're all strong cards there's just not enough artifacts density wise per pack and it makes the drafters feel silly for trying out etched champion or steel overseer.
I think you guys are right in that I'm overreacting a little bit, but there have been a few decks, too many, I think, that play zero occasionals. I think I will just try to reduce the core a little bit, maybe go down to 300 core cards, and try a 12/3 split instead of having just one or two occasionals per pack. I will see if I will be happier that way or if I miss the consistency.
I tend to think of my occasionals as cards with higher ceilings than the core of the cube, but they fit in a narrower range of decks. The opposite of glue, as it were. I'm currently running a 13/2 split in packs. The cube occasionals are often the highlights of decks and the cards that make a player commit to a strategy. But they also tend to be last-picks if that strategy isn't being drafted at the table.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
I have not had the issue of decks without occasionals winning. Most strategies are set up to have not quite enough payoff if they are relying on only core cards.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
I have not had the issue of decks without occasionals winning. Most strategies are set up to have not quite enough payoff if they are relying on only core cards.
Maybe ask yourself the following questions:
Do I want the occasional to bring a whole new deck to the table?
If one desires occasionals that improve a deck, what is the win percentage for a deck without the occasional that does make it better? And what with the occasional?
it seems that you at least want that the deck with the occasional has a higher win rate than without. So the power level should be higher.
Do I want the occasional to bring a whole new deck to the table?
If one desires occasionals that improve a deck, what is the win percentage for a deck without the occasional that does make it better? And what with the occasional?
it seems that you at least want that the deck with the occasional has a higher win rate than without. So the power level should be higher.