General Bosses vs leaders: a dichotomy in archetype definers

I want to bring up a dichotomy in enablers and payoffs I have been paying more attention to in my latest cube changes. You have probably seen this meme before:

bossvsleader.jpg

This difference can show in cards that look similar.

bossvsleaderEnchantress.jpg

The cards in question:


(Cards: Argothian Enchantress, Sythis, Harvest's Hand.)

You know what I'm referring to, right? Here is another similar example:


(Cards: Disciple of the Vault, Psychomancer.)

One more, this time spicier?


(Cards: Third Path Iconoclast, Myth Realized.)

Enablers and payoffs want you to do something in order to get a reward. Some of them just sit there like bosses, waiting for other cards to work for them but not contributing to the deck except for their particular reward. Others also contribute to the theme and, like leaders, show by doing. Leaders also benefit from other thematic cards in their deck, but bosses don't cooperate with each other.

How important is that? Well, imagine we are playing some hypothetical Grixis artifacts deck. We draw our starting hand and it has three spells. Those are:


(Cards: Disciple of the Vault, Rise and Shine, Emry, Lurker of the Loch.)

We have a lot of things to do with artifacts, but nothing to start with. We depend on our draws and on what we mill with Emry after playing her at full cost (notably, this ability makes her not 100% a boss and gives her some leader quality.)

We decide we are better with a mulligan. Our new hand also has three spells. Those are:


(Cards: Psychomancer, Oni-Cult Anvil, Breya's Apprentice.)

Now we have everything we need to start our engines.

Before concluding, I would like to add something that bugs me about this idea. I might just be retreading the old distinction between payoff and enabler, but I see boss vs leader is at least a new axis of comparison. Is Sythis an enabler or a payoff? Well, it sure is a payoff, but it also has enabler qualities. What do you think of this?

So, with this dichotomy in mind, is it always better to have leaders instead of bosses? Well, it comes down to card comparison, of course. Sometimes the power between them is too different and other factors become more important: some of my examples are between monocolor and gold cards, which is obviously a non-trivial difference. Sometimes cards are not absolutely one or the other, as the previously mentioned Emry, Lurker of the Loch, which depends on the luck of what she mills, or Goblin Engineer, which brings something with him but still needs another artifact to start working. Also, as designers, we may not be searching for 100% consistency in our drafters' decks. Leaders can sometimes seem like they do all the work on their own and so they don't require as good a shell to be put in. A good number of leaders with some bosses here and there adds some interest to deckbuilding decisions and also makes so not all cards contribute in the same way, which would be more boring. As I heard Maro said, and I quote very liberally out of memory: "Why do we put restrictions on cards? Well, we are not designing for the most powerful game, we are designing for the most fun game."
 
I think these have been discussed as "self-enabling payoffs" or "payoff-enablers", but another aspect of it is how good the card is without the synergies vs with the synergies, or the "floor" vs "ceiling".

One thing I think you didn't touch upon is how "leaders" can be better as an entry point into the archetype during the draft, especially if they are good early picks. Jason has used the classic Restoration Angel example - you pick it up because it's good, then you can go deep in targets and be a more synergistic deck when Angel is the all-star, or just play it as a fine card in a random white deck.
 
I think these have been discussed as "self-enabling payoffs" or "payoff-enablers", but another aspect of it is how good the card is without the synergies vs with the synergies, or the "floor" vs "ceiling".

I think boss vs. leader is a cuter way of putting it, though. :p

---

While it might seem like leaders are what you generally want, there is one feature of bosses that should be kept in mind: you can push them harder than leaders, because they aren't working yet. :p

In less cryptic terms... leaders are inherently easier picks than bosses (because leaders are safer picks). As a result, you can push how powerful your bosses are harder than you can push your leaders. I'd run Disciple of the Vault in a lower power cube than Psychovore, even though Disciple is the better card (it works off of artifact tokens, you see). Why? Because Disciple is only ever going to show up in the artifact deck, so it has a smaller overall affect on the format.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Leaders are better glue, and great (or even crucial in some cases) for ensuring a certain density of themes, but bosses get to reward you more for the archetype they support, and are thus great incentives to pursue those archetypes.
 
I'd run Disciple of the Vault in a lower power cube than Psychovore, even though Disciple is the better card (it works off of artifact tokens, you see). Why? Because Disciple is only ever going to show up in the artifact deck, so it has a smaller overall affect on the format.

I think this is a bad example. Psychomancer is better for the artifact deck in the sense that it also enables other payoffs due to being an artifact, but I would play neither it nor Disciple in any non-artifact deck. For this I'd need a card like Thopter Shop, which can fully work on it's own (but gets better in the artifact deck).
 
Thopter Shop has been really awesome so far. It's great in token decks, incredible in artifact decks and probably fine even just as a win con for controlling decks.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Thopter Shop has been really awesome so far. It's great in token decks, incredible in artifact decks and probably fine even just as a win con for controlling decks.
Ah fuck I run those decks.
I hate asking people this, but what's the power level of your cube like? Is this either of the ones in your sig, (CCC or Ravnica)?
 
It's the CCC. Power level is relatively low but Shop is definitely within the higher end of my power band. It's a three mana artifact that basically spits out Tome Raiders as a baseline and can be much more with synergies. If that doesn't spund far too slow for your environment, give it a try.
 
I want to bring up a dichotomy in enablers and payoffs I have been paying more attention to in my latest cube changes. You have probably seen this meme before:

bossvsleader.jpg


This difference can show in cards that look similar.

bossvsleaderEnchantress.jpg


The cards in question:

b99ff81f-08d9-4b4a-a879-de5e5e402802.jpg
0babfe00-9bad-48fc-b3b1-df8280242fd2.jpg

(Cards: Argothian Enchantress, Sythis, Harvest's Hand.)

You know what I'm referring to, right?
So I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. I love and fully agree with the overall point here that some cards enable specific play patterns beyond their reward, while other cards only contribute their reward to the deck. However, I've realized something in the process of reading and analyzing this piece that I think is important to understand: I think whether a card is going to be a "leader" or a "boss" is entirely dependent on the format. When I look at the cards you listed in your piece, I think only two cards are clearly leaders:


Third-Path Iconoclast plays the all-important role of the turn-2 play in proactive spell-based tempo decks. It rewards the deck for doing its main thing (i.e. playing lots of spells), but fundamentally, it's doing more by being at that competitive and important price point. Likewise, Emry, Lurker of the Loch both allows for an artifact deck to start doing recursive egg loops and jumpstarts that process by filling the graveyard.

By contrast, these examples all seem more like bosses to me:

All of these cards require a really large investment to get going– you can't just play them on curve and expect them to do what you want in the same way Third-Path Iconoclast or Emry, Lurker of the Loch often will.

Then there's Oni-Cult Anvil:

This card both feels like a boss and a leader to me. It's a "boss" in the sense that it really requires you to already have some number of artifacts (preferably ones that like to die) in play to start doing anything useful. However, it's a "leader" in the sense that it only requires one thing to get going and can from there on out create value for the rest of the game. I think it ends up having a "boss" play pattern in environments where getting the artifact is difficult (or too slow), but a "leader" play pattern in environments where artifacts are everywhere.

The overarching point here is that what constitutes a boss or leader can change depending on the material conditions of a given environment. Understanding how a card may behave in your context goes a long way to deciding how well it will fit your needs.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
So I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. I love and fully agree with the overall point here that some cards enable specific play patterns beyond their reward, while other cards only contribute their reward to the deck. However, I've realized something in the process of reading and analyzing this piece that I think is important to understand: I think whether a card is going to be a "leader" or a "boss" is entirely dependent on the format. When I look at the cards you listed in your piece, I think only two cards are clearly leaders:

I think you misinterpreted the original post? Or maybe I did? It was my impression that Third-Path Iconoclast and Emry, Lurker of the Loch are both bosses, because they ask you to commit to a theme they do not themselves contribute to. The difference is clearer in the case of the boss Argothian Enchantress, and the leader Sythis, Harvest's Hand. Both ask you to commit to the enchantment archetype, the difference is that Sythis herself plays well with other "enchantments matter" cards by virtue of being an enchantment herself, whereas Argothian Enchantress isn't, and so fails to contribute in the absence of other enchantments, regardless of the presence of other payoffs.
 
I think you misinterpreted the original post? Or maybe I did?
No, you're correct, the cards on the right are leaders. I'm not entirely following what definition Train cooked up where Third Path Iconoclast qualifies, but neither of the enchantresses do.

I've been thinking about doing a write-up on categorizing build-arounds lately as well so I was wondering if someone had beaten me to the punch, but this wasn't actually an aspect I had factored in. Likely won't be either since I'm looking at them from more of a one-card wonder approach, this is a lot more interesting if you have a density of overlapping ones.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yes, we're in agreement about this.
Ok, your use of "neither enchantress" (meaning "none of the enchantresses") threw me off. The way you wrote it made it look like you think the Argothian Enchantress and Sythis both are bosses, not leaders :)
 
Ok, your use of "neither enchantress" (meaning "none of the enchantresses") threw me off. The way you wrote it made it look like you think the Argothian Enchantress and Sythis both are bosses, not leaders :)
I don't think I can do much other than suggest you reread what I wrote. What I said is that I don't understand why Train's framework for leaders includes TPI and excludes Sythis and Argothian Enchantress.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I don't think I can do much other than suggest you reread what I wrote. What I said is that I don't understand why Train's framework for leaders includes TPI and excludes Sythis and Argothian Enchantress.
Insert D'oh! meme here XD I read that as your opinion instead of an extension of Train's definition! I see where my interpretation went wrong there :D
 
I think you misinterpreted the original post? Or maybe I did? It was my impression that Third-Path Iconoclast and Emry, Lurker of the Loch are both bosses, because they ask you to commit to a theme they do not themselves contribute to. The difference is clearer in the case of the boss Argothian Enchantress, and the leader Sythis, Harvest's Hand. Both ask you to commit to the enchantment archetype, the difference is that Sythis herself plays well with other "enchantments matter" cards by virtue of being an enchantment herself, whereas Argothian Enchantress isn't, and so fails to contribute in the absence of other enchantments, regardless of the presence of other payoffs.
Oh you're right. That concept is significantly less exciting than I thought.
 
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