General going further with computer-assisted drafting

[anotak]

On this forum we've had a few MTGO/Cockatrice drafts. For the most part, these have been pretty standard affairs, 3 packs of 15 and the utility land draft. Jason has done some things that are difficult without computer assistance but what if we take this to the next level? Why do we have to be limited by things that we could do in person?
See, there's a very important and interesting aspect of computer drafting: the computer is an invisible referee that sees every card taken, and the order of picks. So what if we use this?
We have a few cubing design issues that we've struggled to solve, like multicolor cards and narrow archetypal cards. Think about all the times you've wanted to cube a card like, say, Savage Knuckleblade yet it's gone last pick every time.
So, what if, very simply, the cards you pick have an influence on the cards that show up in the next packs?
ex. What if Knuckleblade only shows up in pack 3 when at least 2 drafters can reasonably play it?
For humans, this would require looking at hidden information and also doing tedious and boring counting/math. Computers excel at this shit. So why not use it?

So far the obvious answer is that there isn't a program that does it yet, but that's a solvable issue esp considering this forum's userbase.

 

[Chriskool]

Sounds like a fun mental exercise if anything! I have thought about a custom solution to draft my fantasy sets to play on MTGO (taking print runs to randomly create packs and then have a draft.wtf-type portal), but I don't have the skill set to implement.

I am sure many of the forum users have also come across the "split card cube"; we could devise something similar for just specific cards during draft. E.g., a pick contains a tri-color wildcard. A player gets a drop-down menu of all of the options. To select the card, the player picks an option from the menu and that card is added to their pool of drafted cards. Would be interesting for lands (cycling land of choice, filter land of choice, etc.) in the draft portion as well.

+1 creating higher mental barrier to entry for forum drafts [sD]

(Aside, why doesn't the forum have the emoticon "trophy" like MTGO? )

 

[Jason Waddell]

(Aside, why doesn't the forum have the emoticon "trophy" like MTGO? )

You want our site to be more like MTGO?

 

[Jason Waddell]

I thought you were saying, why are we doing 3 packs of 15 when we could do something else entirely?

 

[anotak]

well

that too

 

[Jason Waddell]

Should note: any program set up for drafting exists in a very "grey" area. There's a reason CT doesn't do interactive Grid Drafting. Either way, I like the idea of expanding what it means to draft.

 

[Eric Chan]

I'm with Jason on this one - if someone were to spend 15-20 hours, say, forking the excellent draft.wtf project from GitHub to use as a starting point, getting up to speed on ECMAScript 6 and React, figuring out the best PaaS platform to host a Node.js project on, and then setting up shop and messing around, I think there are plenty of ambitious things that could be done, well beyond the boundaries of 3 packs, 15 cards. After all, as you mention yourself - why do we have to be limited by things that we could do in person?

Having played both Rochester and rotisserie drafts, these are formats that are exceptionally fun for the invested Magic player, but are also equally time-consuming, especially the latter. What I'd want to see is some sort of online Rochester and/or rotisserie draft with a) timed rounds, b) simultaneous picks, c) automated arbitration with well-known rules for conflicting picks. Whether it's some kind of bidding & auction system, ranking system, or otherwise, I think there have to be ways to do a Rochester or rotisserie without spending 7/8th's of your time staring at the screen and waiting for other people.

I mean, these are pie-in-the-sky ideas, but I think aiming for something a little higher than "guaranteed tri-colour cards only when applicable" is what will get the creative juices flowing in people enough to spur them on to experiment and invest their own personal time into. At that point, there's plenty of game design involved, and not just tinkering on the technical bits. Not to piss all over your idea, but I think asking someone to spend 25 hours toiling away on a slightly tweaked draft algorithm is a harder sell than 50 hours on a groundbreaking, brand new way to draft that can't be replicated at all on paper.

Also, uh, the MTGO user experience is pretty much the opposite of what we're going for here.

 

[Chriskool]

You want our site to be more like MTGO?

^ that is the best shit post emoticon

 

[Aoret]

the excellent draft.wtf project from GitHub

mind blown. I had no idea it was open source.

 

[Jason Waddell]

mind blown. I had no idea it was open source.

Integrated Cloudshift say whaaaa.

 

[anotak]

The guaranteed tri-color cards was an example of something that is just so wildly impossible normally, don't focus too much on that. also WTF it's open source???

 

[Ferritovore]

Some of the best software I use is open source. Not just good: top-notch, better than proprietary alternatives. Compare TronScript to like... the paid version of Glary Utilities, or worse the Nortn/Mcafee equivalents, for an extreme example.

But well-known and widely-used software is often not open source, because it's advertised / "reviewed" and otherwise link-spammed more heavily.

Aaaaanyway, computers could do all sorts of nutty stuff. Like remembering a card's state through the changing of zones.
Inevitabiff
Creature - Revenant
Whenever ~ dies, its base power and toughness increase by 1 until the end of the game.
As long as ~'s base p/t is 4/4, it gains first strike and deathtouch.
2/2
Fertilizer Fred
Creature - Angry Seedling
When ~ dies, it loses all types and becomes a basic Forest.
3/2

After all, as you mention yourself - why do we have to be limited by things that we could do in person?

Because existing cards and standard formats are solved problems that only require re-implementation, not re-invention. That said I am always interested in new game formats. I get to try Defeat The Hydra tomorrow!

Whether it's some kind of bidding & auction system, ranking system, or otherwise, I think there have to be ways to do a Rochester or rotisserie without spending 7/8th's of your time staring at the screen and waiting for other people.

Tom LaPille invented a draft-as-you-play format called Zeddemore and my homies like it way more than they like booster or grid drafts.
http://mtg-zeddemore.tumblr.com/post/110981215964/introducing-zeddemore

Also, uh, the MTGO user experience is pretty much the opposite of what we're going for here.

^

 

[Jason Waddell]

Tom LaPille invented a draft-as-you-play format called Zeddemore and my homies like it way more than they like booster or grid drafts.
http://mtg-zeddemore.tumblr.com/post/110981215964/introducing-zeddemore

Yeah, but the name "Grid Drafting" is pretty dope, right?

 

[Ferritovore]

I don't know. No? Yes? The name of it is clear and concise, but not catchy. The gameplay of it is pretty sweet, though.

I should have clarified, that I am not in the subset of people who do not enjoy drafting and deckbuilding.

I enjoy traditional (draft) deckbuilding enough that I have in my own time drafted and built Grid/sealed decks for these people, so that they will periodically play something that's not Zedd or Tower magic.