General latest MTGO changes

CML

Contributor
per the article, is this not the exact same cube from the players' championship? if it is, then it's exactly the same cube as before. 150 cards have changed but they were by and large not cards anyone played, and they still aren't; the fixing is still too sparse and control-oriented; aggro is still not even a thing; etc. it is still trash.

let me explain a bit. when i saw the changes i was pretty excited; it looked like the modo cube was adapting some ideas that were self-evident to me and ought to be self-evident to thinking cube designers. but then i looked at the decklists and the decks are exactly the same. see for yourself:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazi.../daily/eventcoverage/mocs12/cubedecklistsblue
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/mocs12/cubedecklistsred

same old Ux control, limited-curve RDW, Gx ramp, etc. same shit, different day. yes, they may have switched out 150 cards, but it's nothing more than window-dressing; it is the illusory change of a cheater who wants to prove he's been reformed without reforming. AND THE CUBE DESIGNERS KNOW IT. if the final product of the cube -- the decks played in a competitive environment; the terrible games they engendered -- proves that this forum is more necessary than ever before, the cynical dishonesty from the wizards employees in charge of this charade does.
 

Rob Dennis

Developer
I guess I'm a little confused then, because all I really remember from the last round of changes was that shelldeck isle was taken out. I didn't see it mentioned in the changes so I guess I missed a version somewhere in there :-(

edit: blah, I glossed over it, oh well
 

CML

Contributor
didn't they toss in bouncelands, signets, filters, 'bad river' and friends? (somehow including mirage cipt fetches is less absurd than breaking singleton?)

i'm sympathetic to many aspects of nwo and the ones i'm not i can at least appreciate generate revenue and are therefore good for the game. but surely wizards, in addition to letting what people want shape their product, can let their product shape what people want. there are some great passages in borges, camus, the wire about how the master is more constrained by the little guy's expectations than the little guy himself, and these must apply to how wizards feels about the modo cube, even though it's probably false. the bummer is that THE WHOLE POINT OF CUBE IS TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT (moreso than mtg at large, even!) and yet they constrain themselves in design for reasons that aren't good enough.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I do find it strange how much time is spent by the community at large nitpicking small (relatively cosmetic) changes to the MTGO cube relative to the amount of time spent talking about the more high level issues. Not that there's not room for discussing both, but it can feel a little counterproductive. Like, how are we as a community supposed to expect a better product if we complain every time some small detail is changed.

For example, there was some ruckus over the removal of Shelldock Isle. Sure, it's a card, but it doesn't really affect the environment in any meaningful way. Major overhauls seem unlikely if minor, mostly irrelevant changes cause such a commotion. This is one of the major drawbacks of design by committee. When you read about real set design diaries, they talk about axing a third of the set at a time and bringing in new mechanics and retooling the balance and dynamics constantly. But all that happens behind closed-doors. There's also just the fact that you can't make everyone happy.

My overall objections to the MODO cube are based on a belief that they don't apply the same design standards that guide their own designs. Wizards breaks rules and delivers creative solutions all the time. They understand how their game works. Is the complete RTR block going to focus on three-color decks as opposed to two-color? Then let's jam fixers in the basic land slots, to hell with the rules. Problems with cube dynamics? Sorry, our hands are tied.

But maybe that's symptomatic of the community at large? Like how many years can people mash their teeth to try and figure out how to appropriately power a color (e.g. black) when the solutions are rather straightforward. Can you imagine that in a design meeting?

"Sorry Mark, we've been at it for months but aggro is still terrible in this new set."
"Oh, well can't you change something? More strong aggro cards? Fixing that aggressive decks can use? Including blockers that have lower toughness? Higher costing board wipes? Fewer Planeswalkers? Weaker control bombs? Less acceleration?"


When I suggested elsewhere some ideas for fixing common cube problems, I got responses like:
"Oh sure, that will make it better, but I won't be impressed if you break rule X"

"I believe in powering up, not in powering down." (As if it was a mark of shame to not include the most powerful card in a slot).




"Hey man, we need to rework this track, the vocals aren't coming through at all."
"Sorry boss, no can do. The vocal slider is already at the max."
"Nothing you can do? It's being drowned out by the bass."
"Oh, well that's at the max too. I want all the sound to be as full as possible."
"And the treble?"
"That's at the max too. I don't believe in moving any of the sliders down."
"I'm sorry, but we're going to have to let you go."
 

CML

Contributor
yep, you get it!

shelldock: to my mind, much of the uproar has been ironic, i.e. 'they took out shelldock, do they really think these kinds of changes will address what's wrong with the modo cube?' and the part that is serious is because removing shelldock is symbolic of larger issues, viz. a complete lack of taste because shelldock is fun and halimar depths is stupid
 

VibeBox

Contributor
while i agree with the overall sentiments and most of the details of your points, i disagree on the shelldock. i think it is an important card. by itself it's just some card, but for multiple archetypes shelldock was part of a whole class of cards that keep getting the boot. storm, reanimator, and show and tell/tinker used to have shelldock and dream halls as powerful fallback plans/enablers. now those cards are gone along with some more role player type cards and those archetypes are much weaker than before.
but several cards that are narrowly good in those archetypes are still around. so it may seem like they're just shuffling things around for the sake of "newness" and a few cards here and there are lost, but in reality not only are good cards being taken out for unplayables, but many many of the remaining cards are in fact rendered less and less playable. for this reason i think the degradation of the quality of their cube is much more than people think.
 

CML

Contributor
ah i see, those decks need shelldock. in my cube it is merely kind of obscene. cube is fun with shelldock.

justice and love are both blind; someone draw a picture of the modo cube architect throwing darts and skewering the shelldock

rip shelldock, windbrisk lives on (worse in cube but better in modern)
 

VibeBox

Contributor
ah i see, those decks need shelldock.
i wouldn't say this is true in every cube, just theirs in particular.
with so many cards in the format and so many unplayable cards there is virtually no way to assemble the appropriate density of enablers your archetype will need. so the oddball powerhouses like dream halls and shelldock served as emergency glue. sure maybe you only ended up with 3 discard outlets in your reanimator, but if you got a dream halls and shelldeck you were still a deck anyway.
in more reasonable cubes where enabler density is at appropriate levels sure i could see cutting shelldock for many reasons (i don't run it)
 

CML

Contributor
right, i could see cutting it from my cube but nah. again, shelldock makes cube better.

another way of putting it is that in a 405-card cube there are possibly 405 cards that are cooler than shelldock (though i don't think this is true), but there sure as hell aren't 720 cards that are cooler.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Not to argue semantics, but wouldn't there only need to be N cards, where N is the size of the blue section? (Or lands section, no judgement)

I get this alot when I tell people I include multiples and custom cards in my cube. "Oh, thats retarted, I don't wanna play with a cube that has more copies of cards, how is that balanced?"
"Uh, because I test it? Also I resent the idea that a cube based on including the best cards so long as they aren't restricted in vintage is balanced at all."
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Amen, Chris. There is a surprising hatred of design for something that calls itself a "cube design community".
 
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