Article Learning From Pauper—A Study in Aggression
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That was quick.
As a riptide specific addendum, I wanted to post this deck from venny
Which has more 4-5CC high end cards than it does aggressive one drops. I feel that its a pretty good example of an aggro deck that is going to be inconsistency curving out, and needs to make up for that lost time: in this instance, ramping out a midrange threat on turn three. It also has some value generation and control tools to play a more grindy game.
Its interesting, because you can imagine it going noble->tarmogoyf and curving out beautifully into a burn kill. On the other hand, you could imagine it getting hands where it plays more like the turn 2 aggro concept I discussed, where you go t1 elf and are setting up for a turn 3 aristocrat of huntmaster.
The deck though reminds me a little bit of the "speed decks" from the 90s, the types of decks running kird apes, and were trying to elf ramp out an erhnam djinn on turn 3 because access to good one drops was so limited. This was before we really had the idea of midrange, and those decks, now, seem like they occupy a strange spot where their role changes a lot depending on their draw. Not passing judgment on whether this is good or bad, just sort of using the deck as a prop to show that these issues exist.
I also think that the concept of turn 2 in comparison to turn 1 aggro, and the idea of explosive plays, and evasion, probably help clarify the path that, I think, this poster wanted to go down.
You don't have to cut your midrange section for riot pikers, just give your aggro decks tempo recouping tools for those stumbles, with the sort of flexible removal, disruption, or evasion they need to beat midrange's gameplan.
As a riptide specific addendum, I wanted to post this deck from venny
4-C Zoo
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Which has more 4-5CC high end cards than it does aggressive one drops. I feel that its a pretty good example of an aggro deck that is going to be inconsistency curving out, and needs to make up for that lost time: in this instance, ramping out a midrange threat on turn three. It also has some value generation and control tools to play a more grindy game.
Its interesting, because you can imagine it going noble->tarmogoyf and curving out beautifully into a burn kill. On the other hand, you could imagine it getting hands where it plays more like the turn 2 aggro concept I discussed, where you go t1 elf and are setting up for a turn 3 aristocrat of huntmaster.
The deck though reminds me a little bit of the "speed decks" from the 90s, the types of decks running kird apes, and were trying to elf ramp out an erhnam djinn on turn 3 because access to good one drops was so limited. This was before we really had the idea of midrange, and those decks, now, seem like they occupy a strange spot where their role changes a lot depending on their draw. Not passing judgment on whether this is good or bad, just sort of using the deck as a prop to show that these issues exist.
I also think that the concept of turn 2 in comparison to turn 1 aggro, and the idea of explosive plays, and evasion, probably help clarify the path that, I think, this poster wanted to go down.
You don't have to cut your midrange section for riot pikers, just give your aggro decks tempo recouping tools for those stumbles, with the sort of flexible removal, disruption, or evasion they need to beat midrange's gameplan.
Was a good read, but I feel that knowing the pauper metagame and those decks took a little out of the article for me, as I could only see those decks as pauper decks and not what they represent for cube. If it wasn't for that checklist down the bottom I would have thought that it was just an overview of the pauper metagame, with descriptions on how the decks function.
The addendum actually helped with this problem I had, as it gave a cube specific example and I can now see how to integrate these theories with cube design.
It always great to see articles go up! Keep more coming!
The addendum actually helped with this problem I had, as it gave a cube specific example and I can now see how to integrate these theories with cube design.
I feel like I say this about pauper Delver all the time. After a turn 2 counterspell I know I have lost, but it still takes them 12 turns to finish me off.
It always great to see articles go up! Keep more coming!
Good read Grillo. That deck you just posted is a pretty common blueprint over here. I'd label that "aggressive-midrange" and it's about as "aggro" as people tend to draft. Part of that is just preference, but when we ran more multiplayer if was more out of necessity since hard aggro sucks in that format. But with personnel changes, we have done a lot less of multi-player and I've been trying to move things more aggressive over time. So this is especially relevant subject matter for me at the moment. Thanks for taking the time.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, its kind of the nature of the beast. I think there is kind of a disconnect with what I want to achieve when I write one of these articles--facilitate theory discussions--and what a lot of people want--a blue print tailored to their needs. I feel like the latter is not only hard to do (so many cubes are different) but somewhat dangerous, as it stifles critical discussion.
The ultimate lesson of pauper aggro is the interesting ways that the decks adapted to their format's challenges. Aggro design in cube, i.m.o., has to start with a realistic assessment of the problems those decks face, and than a real open mindedness when trying to develop plans for them. I disagree pretty strongly with the idea of coddling aggro by neutering midrange decks.
We've been talking about things like wasteland as a disruptive piece, but thats all part of a broader discussion on the types of disruption aggro can run. How do we feel about that 4c, zoo list; should it be worrisome that so much of its gameplan involves creeping into aggressive midrange territory, and does that represent a certain awkwardness within the identity of the archetype? Or is this just a reasonable aggro manifestation in a high power format?
The ultimate lesson of pauper aggro is the interesting ways that the decks adapted to their format's challenges. Aggro design in cube, i.m.o., has to start with a realistic assessment of the problems those decks face, and than a real open mindedness when trying to develop plans for them. I disagree pretty strongly with the idea of coddling aggro by neutering midrange decks.
We've been talking about things like wasteland as a disruptive piece, but thats all part of a broader discussion on the types of disruption aggro can run. How do we feel about that 4c, zoo list; should it be worrisome that so much of its gameplan involves creeping into aggressive midrange territory, and does that represent a certain awkwardness within the identity of the archetype? Or is this just a reasonable aggro manifestation in a high power format?
This aggro deck had a naaasty plan B with a lot of reach from sacrificing and direct damage whenever the board got too clogged. Though it was also pretty good at keeping the board clean and the attacks coming!
Like some of the decks Grillo talked about, it played like a pretty different deck every time I drew a new hand, but it was generally able to make use of its mana to do something useful regardless.
Sideboarded in demonic pact as a "finisher", casting it 2 turns out from expected final turn, not 3.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/442623
Like some of the decks Grillo talked about, it played like a pretty different deck every time I drew a new hand, but it was generally able to make use of its mana to do something useful regardless.
Sideboarded in demonic pact as a "finisher", casting it 2 turns out from expected final turn, not 3.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/442623
I like the deck list a lot and it's something I would build myself and enjoy. In particular, the fact that it wouldn't play the same each time and I'd have to adjust my play based on what I drew and what I was up against. I'm a fan honestly.
With that said, I generally gravitate towards this type of play style anyway. As a cube designer though, it's challenging trying to encourage more aggressive strategies (that differ from the above) when I myself don't gravitate towards them. The fact is, I don't build those decks well when I try to force them. That makes it hard for me to design competitive/viable archetypes in that vein. This is what makes these types of articles and discussion particularly useful to me because I can learn more about how others are successfully doing things I myself have never successfully done or spent time trying to do.
With that said, I generally gravitate towards this type of play style anyway. As a cube designer though, it's challenging trying to encourage more aggressive strategies (that differ from the above) when I myself don't gravitate towards them. The fact is, I don't build those decks well when I try to force them. That makes it hard for me to design competitive/viable archetypes in that vein. This is what makes these types of articles and discussion particularly useful to me because I can learn more about how others are successfully doing things I myself have never successfully done or spent time trying to do.
I liked this article very much. One of the major processes I've been going through has been revamping/soldifying the aggro strategies. Glad to see a concise "summary" of some of the major themes in dynamic aggro. As ahadabans has written about above, decks over my way end up as Aggro-midrange. They don't play as midrangey decks, but have a higher concentration of bombs and a relatively high curve. The most unstoppable deck I've seen in my group so far is a RB deck that could curve out with big threats like Kolaghan, but keep low and wide too.
Anyway, I'm a huge fan of this concept. I like aggro decks that have to plan, be creative, and work through threats. Thanks for making this. Some specific cards I like that I feel fit this thought process:
Molten Vortex
Feeling of Dread
Madcap Skills
Herald of Torment
goblin wardriver
become immense
Alesha, who smiles at death
Anyway, I'm a huge fan of this concept. I like aggro decks that have to plan, be creative, and work through threats. Thanks for making this. Some specific cards I like that I feel fit this thought process:
Molten Vortex
Feeling of Dread
Madcap Skills
Herald of Torment
goblin wardriver
become immense
Alesha, who smiles at death
this aggro-midrange thing reminded me of a conversation i had recently w/ a netizen who played for ante as a kid and who told me about the gradual dissolution of playing for ante as 'cheap red green' both cost little to assemble and crushed people's jank pile decks, in what i think is a super early example of the Magical metagame changing the effective rules of the game. That's so sweet right? anyway, here's what he remembered of his deck, which is a pr. good early example of just this archetype!
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ante-deck-1/
ALSO ALSO here's what he said in case anyone else is as stoked about this shit as I am (which i guess i atribute to loving niche histories and only really getting into the game with RTR?):
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ante-deck-1/
ALSO ALSO here's what he said in case anyone else is as stoked about this shit as I am (which i guess i atribute to loving niche histories and only really getting into the game with RTR?):
In the Midwestern U.S., ante 5-color was popular in the early 2000s. It was a big deck format reminiscent of MTGO's "prismatic": 250 cards, at least 18 of each color required. Ante was until a rare or foil was hit (wtf are mythics?). The way ante affected gameplay was quite interesting, with singleton tutor targets frequently becoming ante-ed (especially over a day-long play session). Ante also created a lot of business for Indiananapolis-area Arby's fast food and Mexican restaurants.
The format was wild west MTG, with lots of culture focused on ruining cards (no sleeved decks at the time). Here is one of my favorite rules:
5-color was also an Invitational format. Check out this summary:
@Grillo: superb article. The low land count of pauper aggro occasionally inspires my cube manabases. I will need to spend some time to take in all that you've written, but please know that I appreciate the work you put into driving discussions on this forum.