Take a gander at Grillo's debut article:
http://riptidelab.com/learning-from-pauper-rethinking-archetype-design/
http://riptidelab.com/learning-from-pauper-rethinking-archetype-design/
Article Learning From Pauper – Rethinking Archetype Design
- Thread starter Eric Chan
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
A nice read, but I am kind of sad that each example aggro-"control" deck includes Fabled Hero and the heroic mechanic. It would have been interesting to see examples from other cubes!
Fear not! The second deck mentions FH but doesn't actually have it!
A solid point. I wonder if anyone has an example of a champion of the parish deck with good long game? Maybe I should draft an ion storm deck and chime in.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I was very reluctant to take examples or discuss cube's I haven't played, and wanted to generally avoid a semantics discussion about what qualfies as "aggro-control." Though I do make a reference towards the riptide style gravecrawler decks, as decks able to produce incrimental value with longer shelf life.
You're free to discuss your own lists though--that was the point of the article.
Sorry about the mistypes--first article and all. There are a few others: "power of its combo decks and aggro decks" rather than combo deck singular.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
as someone super unfamaliar with the pauper meta, is there a decent article to go learn a thing or two?
If it's as interesting to aggro design as you say, I am looking for a new theme...
I've had some pretty cool aggro-combo Champion / Cataclysm decks. This one isn't quite as long-game as maybe you're going for but it 3-0'd and Vault of the Archangel was monstrous in stabilizing.
Golemclysm
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Chris Taylor
Contributor
Seeker/Eidilon/Wargear/Temple sounds like a good cataclysm
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The meta just had a huge change with the banning of treasure cruise (thank god), but this is the best intro article to the meta I can find.
Unfortunatly, because wizards canceled the daily events for a while, everyone stopped writing, and thus good content going over the aggro decks is going to be hard to find, and ones breaking those decks down into principles portable to cube, even harder (hence the article). I think those goblins articles I linked to are gold, and are a really good catalyst for critically thinking about bleeding archetype traits.
It would probably be easier to just talk in terms of broad concepts: disruption tools, longitivity, incrimental gain, board control, spike damage, and percieved pressure vs. actual pressure.
I am trying to add long game plans to aggro with Enduring Renewal, still haven't decided if it works or not.
Last time i saw one it used blasting station with low mana drops to shoot those last life points to zero in the end game.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That's reach if I ever saw it.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I couldn't find any actual decent articles going over aggro archetypes.
However, to make a long story short, I think what makes pauper aggro unique is that they have access, in various degrees, to some forms of reusable removal or threat protection:
1. Vines of vastwood/pump spells in mono green stompy
2. Counterspells in mono blue delver
3. Kor skyfisher tricks with icatian javelineers in white based aggro
4. Sparksmith and death spark in goblins
5. Recursive threats in stompy and goblins.
6. Protection effects in UR Kiln fiend.
The decks can be ultra aggressive, but can eek out tremendous value by both neutralizing the effects of removal or fielding reusuable removal themselves.
As it translates to my budget cube, white gains a lot of control tools from its protection effects, and green combat tricks also double as control tools, since they can counter damage based removal, or dominate in combat. Aggro decks thus gain a lot of resilience they are not normally accustomed to having against both control and midrange strategies, since you can never just trump them with either removal or larger creatures.*
This deconstructs the roshambo paradigm in a way thats great for the cube experience, since it effectively invalidates "good stuff" midrange strategies, and leads to more tactical game play.
*as an aside, heroic is not only a very good way to demonstrate this, but also to cement the relationship between these cards and aggro to your drafters in these sorts of environments.
However, to make a long story short, I think what makes pauper aggro unique is that they have access, in various degrees, to some forms of reusable removal or threat protection:
1. Vines of vastwood/pump spells in mono green stompy
2. Counterspells in mono blue delver
3. Kor skyfisher tricks with icatian javelineers in white based aggro
4. Sparksmith and death spark in goblins
5. Recursive threats in stompy and goblins.
6. Protection effects in UR Kiln fiend.
The decks can be ultra aggressive, but can eek out tremendous value by both neutralizing the effects of removal or fielding reusuable removal themselves.
As it translates to my budget cube, white gains a lot of control tools from its protection effects, and green combat tricks also double as control tools, since they can counter damage based removal, or dominate in combat. Aggro decks thus gain a lot of resilience they are not normally accustomed to having against both control and midrange strategies, since you can never just trump them with either removal or larger creatures.*
This deconstructs the roshambo paradigm in a way thats great for the cube experience, since it effectively invalidates "good stuff" midrange strategies, and leads to more tactical game play.
*as an aside, heroic is not only a very good way to demonstrate this, but also to cement the relationship between these cards and aggro to your drafters in these sorts of environments.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Isn't a "pants deck" a deck where you beef up a creature using equipment? I still don't know some of the nomenclature.
This is more about aggro-control.
This is more about aggro-control.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Mostly aura's I think. It's generally a combination of "you can't touch this" and "putting all your eggs in one basket". Like putting Angelic Destiny on Geist of Saint Traft. Real fun games ahead!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I experimented with the hexproof/aura deck at the early phase of the penny cube, and ended up cutting it. Just not a fun deck.
Giving some of that in the form of tempory hexproof/protection has worked out pretty well, since than people have to actually play around percieved disruption.
Giving some of that in the form of tempory hexproof/protection has worked out pretty well, since than people have to actually play around percieved disruption.
I sorta consider them decks that reward introspective creature improvement and defending a big threat from an early point in a game.
It's sorta like a smaller version of the classic UG critical mass deck that played huge legends, ramp, countermagic and jittes. These decks are more "go-under".
I usually really like finding new avenues for pressure-control or tempo decks, but I feel like these heroic strategies don't really perform the same way those do. I do feel like heroic is one of the themes that most closely resembles GY-aggro in it's relative depth of card pool and that it plays well with a variety of cards, but I find it's sorta draft poisonous and gameplay unpleasant when you put it in a cube that isn't built around aggressive limited-esque magic.
Just my opinion as a peasant guy and a cube guy, a guy that loves stealing matches with outlier strategies.
Leonin squire is a card I've been thinking about a lot lately. I think our problem here may be that you like playing in a format where many of the decks are variations on a modular theme where as I like to distinctly support archetypes while making many of the cards valuable to multiple supported styles.
It's sorta like a smaller version of the classic UG critical mass deck that played huge legends, ramp, countermagic and jittes. These decks are more "go-under".
I usually really like finding new avenues for pressure-control or tempo decks, but I feel like these heroic strategies don't really perform the same way those do. I do feel like heroic is one of the themes that most closely resembles GY-aggro in it's relative depth of card pool and that it plays well with a variety of cards, but I find it's sorta draft poisonous and gameplay unpleasant when you put it in a cube that isn't built around aggressive limited-esque magic.
Just my opinion as a peasant guy and a cube guy, a guy that loves stealing matches with outlier strategies.
Leonin squire is a card I've been thinking about a lot lately. I think our problem here may be that you like playing in a format where many of the decks are variations on a modular theme where as I like to distinctly support archetypes while making many of the cards valuable to multiple supported styles.
CML
Contributor
I've had some pretty cool aggro-combo Champion / Cataclysm decks. This one isn't quite as long-game as maybe you're going for but it 3-0'd and Vault of the Archangel was monstrous in stabilizing.
Golemclysm
sweet deck. how's anafenza? urza's cycle lands and not onslaught?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think thats correct for that format. It has about 3-4 different strategic pillars where strategies cluster, rather than focusing on archetype build arounds. That result is mostly because of the impact bouncelands have on tempo, and the artifact fixing combined with cards that care about artifacts.
That sort of heroic aggro deck where you are forcing people to play around perceived pressure has a hard time translating fairly into high power formats (hence both the title of the article and the discussion). Infect is a pretty big bust, and a lot of those protection effects lead to bad gameplay when you have high power threats that require removal asap, costing aggro decks an easy source of disruption.
Its just interesting comparing and contrasting the two gameplay spaces, and how something so complicated to achieve in one setting, translates over effortlessly into the other, as well as the way that impacts the flavor of the games.
Anafenza has been amazing, probably the best WW creature I've run in Cube and simultaneously makes for fun and intricate lines of play (on both sides of the table, no less!). run her asap
plus you get to announce ghost mom triggers
Both sets of cycle lands are in the ULD, and the white Onslaught cycler was gone already so i just grabbed both urza's ones. There was one point where I wished I hadn't (unable to cycle both the same turn) but besides that it didn't come up.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
My pants decks were essentially like the heroic decks you see elsewhere, but with a wider range of enablers:
+
vs
Sure some of these cards are good with heroic creatures anyways, but Ajani doesn't have the same synergy "Oh man I want this" effect he does above, he's just a good white card.
Sorcery speed removal was key to provide cards like griffin guide a chance to actually provide value in non-best-case scenarios, rather than being countered by doom blade 99% of the time.
+ vs
Sure some of these cards are good with heroic creatures anyways, but Ajani doesn't have the same synergy "Oh man I want this" effect he does above, he's just a good white card.
Sorcery speed removal was key to provide cards like griffin guide a chance to actually provide value in non-best-case scenarios, rather than being countered by doom blade 99% of the time.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The decks like that which I support revolve around effects like:
Deliberately leaving out threats like silhana ledgewalker for reasons stated, though I love lumberknot.
Just noticed how great the art on lumbernot is: never saw it was eating a guy chopping wood.
Deliberately leaving out threats like silhana ledgewalker for reasons stated, though I love lumberknot.
Just noticed how great the art on lumbernot is: never saw it was eating a guy chopping wood.