General Let's talk about generating value

[Erik Twice]

Look what I did, for value.
- Unknown

I dislike "Baneslayers". I don't like cards that generate a game-winning advantage if not killled on the spot, because I'm allergic to games ending and I don't think it's where the fun of Magic lies. But, when I think about it, the problem is not Baneslayer Angel, but a wider design "problem" that I think we should think about.

Basically: How do you generate "value"in your cube? Is it interesting? Is it fun? What effect does it have in your environment?

Here's how I separate "value-generating" cards on my mind:

1) One-shot cost, One-shot value.



2) One-shot cost, repeated value




3) Recurring cost, repeated value



Why is this division important? Because it determines what's good in your environment. For example, if you have a fast, pressure-heavy meta, Category 2 cards will be weaker than if you have a slow and pleasing environment.

Most importantly, I think cards get more sensitive the higher their category. Category 1 cards are always great. Category 2 cards are great if they are good enough. Category 3 cards are good, only if they are good enough and they can somehow be less demanding than cards in Category 2.

For example, I don't think it makes sense to play many "engine" cards in the average cube because you are better off taking Planeswalkers. Similarly, it doesn't make sense to take many long-term value cards if you can simply jam ETBs.

WHat do you think?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Before we have this discussion, I think we would need to define what we mean by value!

 

[InfinityBlack14]

I'd recommend editting this first. Creatures with ETB are 2 for 1's where an instant is like fof could be a 1 for 1 or more. Maybe a graph or table could better represent this.

 

[Erik Twice]

I'd recommend editting this first. Creatures with ETB are 2 for 1's where an instant is like fof could be a 1 for 1 or more. Maybe a graph or table could better represent this.

FoF could be Divination or any other draw spell. It could even be Mulldrifter. Being a spell instead of a creature is not the important part here, what matters is what you have to do to get value.

The weird one out, if you ask me, is Forbid, which is both "value" and card disadvantage.

Before we have this discussion, I think we would need to define what we mean by value!

I don't think there's an easy way to define it! It's mostly card advantage and card quality, but it can also be tempo or any other resource you can think of.

 

[Dom Harvey]

ok now define tempo

 

[Erik Twice]

ok now define tempo

Tempo means "one player turn" in Chess. Hence, if you can generate a chess game out of Man-O'war, it's a tempo card.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

ok now define tempo

I've settled at defining tempo as "The rate at which you change the number of active threats in your favor", so playing a lot of creatures quickly -> tempo. Bouncing your opponents creature -> tempo. Playing a sweeper would also be a tempo play, in that you very quickly remove many threats in one fell swoop.

I don't think there's an easy way to define it! It's mostly card advantage and card quality, but it can also be tempo or any other resource you can think of.

I'm in agreement with you, I think. To make the notion of "value" meaningful I think you'd really have to specify all the resources are available in the game, or at least what resources you want to consider, and then letting "value" just mean an increase of those resources. Lands and mana are a resource, active threats are a resource, cards in hand is a resource, your life total is a resource. Getting more of any of these I would probably consider to be "value", or at least we can say that playing a card that increases those resources as a "valuable card" (as opposed to a card that doesn't really do anything, like an over-costed vanilla creature).

 

[japahn]

I usually think of value as card advantage, which translates to inevitability* (*not necessarily, but usually does)

Meanwhile, tempo is a measurement of how many turns to win or lose the game, given the current position.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Oh no you're fallen for his trap card!

 

[safra]

looks like japahn, rasmus, and erik need to put a dollar in the swear jar

 

[TrainmasterGT]

looks like japahn, rasmus, and erik need to put a dollar in the swear jar

Why?

 

[Heymaker]

I can't tell if this thread is gaining or losing tempo.

 

[Laz]

I can't tell if this thread is gaining or losing tempo.

I suspect it is doing both. It looks like Dom has successfully stalled the thread in the early game, through his powerful tempo play, thus gaining tempo. Erik on the other hand hasn't been able to deploy his most powerful arguments, so you could argue he has lost a lot of tempo.

Which of course brings up the obvious question; is tempo in Magic zero-sum?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Why?

We said the T-word.


Back on topic! I used to loath this card in standard, but it really is a value packed card. Does anyone run this dumb idiot card? It really feels good to cast it.

 

[sigh]

Too easy to splash and easily overshadows other more interesting value-generation you might want in that section of green.

Like how can I justify running something like genesis, one of my key sources of repeatable value in green, when I have that etb fatty?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Genesis is the bee's knees!

 

[Velrun]

Define fatty

 

[Chris Taylor]

I feel like we should adapt this meme:

 

[TekLazar]

As in x-axis tempo, y-axis value?

 

[Velrun]

I firmly do not believe in Hate Radical.

In fact I also do not believe in Bear Radical.

Edit: In facto de fact I now just realized it is a joke and that I am not suppose to support any of the radicals.

 

[ravnic]

Never support the radicals

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I feel like we should adapt this meme

 

[TekLazar]

As in x-axis tempo, y-axis value?

I elaborated myself

I based my card evaluations off of untamed kavu cuz grizzly bears doesn't cut it anymore, but obviously I am not perfect (I'm second guessing pierce the sky, I think it should be higher value, but it is a niche card). Also this is not entirely granular, not everyone will agree that feed the clan is the same value as tarmogoyf (and I don't think it's exact either) I think this is on topic, but I don't think the rest of the forum is on topic

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Define fatty

I wrote an entire piece about fatties last summer.