General Let's talk broad power band

Lots of cube designers have the goal of maintaining a narrow power band. I’m not sure this is the right thing to do. Grillo has raised the point in this thread but the discussion went towards other directions (and when doesn’t it):

http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/design-discussion-perfect-imbalance.1015/

I would like to discuss the pros and cons of high variance in power level.

Let’s look at stock limited: players will end up with 3 rares, 9 uncommons and 30 commons on average. An average deck is composed of roughly 17 lands, 2 rares, 6 uncommons and 15 commons.

On analysis paralysis

I’ve often heard from limited players how hard it is to make the first pick in cube. This is because limited will usually already nudge you towards a direction in the first pick. A good amount of the time, you’ll just grab the rare because it’s the right thing to do.

On signaling and analysis paralysis

When you don’t pick a good rare, you’ve made a clear “draft red” statement to your neighbor. This is very effective in pack 1 to say “guys, kill each other for red, I’m out of this”.

At the start of the second pack, while you still have the chance to switch colors, the rare and power uncommons are also strong signals that “look, you should be in this color”. Passing strong cards is the gossiping between players sitting close together that is mutually beneficial to each them.

On human psychology

Topdecking a bomb rare is not fun when there are 9 of them in your deck - it’s business as usual.

Topdecking the only bomb in your deck exactly when you need it creates excitement. It gives a player hopeful when they are behind in the form of an out that’s easy to remember.

When limited players talk about their decks, they always mention the rares. It creates deck identity. Even their absence is significant: they will remember that deck that had 0 rares and still wiped the floor with their opponents with 2-drops.

On bomb rare identification

For all of this to happen, there needs to be a clear distinction between bombs and non-bombs, indicated by the golden (or copper red) symbol in stock limited. This is an incredibly elegant way to both create signaling and help people make decisions (by providing fewer options).

With a wide power band, seasoned players will look at a booster and identify the best card. Marking the strong cards in a cube, though, would definitely increase how accessible it is.
 
It's successful in Limited because of how print runs work, but it would be way too tedious to have to balance every single pack when it comes to a cube draft. You don't want one person to end up with a pack full of powerful rares and the person on the other side of the table to open up a pack of filler or just roleplayers. You would then end up with some very unbalanced draft decks from opposite ends of the table from multiple drafters. Whatever shuffling method you use to distribute colors within packs would have to be refined further to account for power level as well. I've seen my friend shuffle up his Innistrad drafts sim to create equally balanced packs and it took FOREVER.

But let's assume that you had the tools to avoid this issue though. I still don't think you want a wide power in that case because you'll have too many swing-y games dependent upon the more powerful cards, which is what most of us are trying to avoid in the first place. Clear P1P1s and filler are going to make it more drafting-on-wheels than anything. Retail Limited is just a different beast compared to a finite pool within a cube.
 
If you could find a way to really replicate booster packs with good color and power distribution, I think you'd be onto something here, but that sounds like way too much organizing, shuffling and headache.
 
If you could find a way to really replicate booster packs with good color and power distribution, I think you'd be onto something here, but that sounds like way too much organizing, shuffling and headache.


I already try to keep a color balance by doing this:
1. For each player, take 7 cards of each color (35 total), 6 from the artifact/multi pile and 4 from the non-basic land pile. The total is 45 cards
2. Each player shuffles these 45 cards together and makes 3 15-card boosters.
3. Each player exchanges two of their boosters with someone else.

Modifying the process to have 42 cards, then adding a "rare" from the rare pile to each booster is a simple extra step.

Worth it? I don't know, but the practical matters are not dealbreakers.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I already try to keep a color balance by doing this:
1. For each player, take 7 cards of each color (35 total), 6 from the artifact/multi pile and 4 from the non-basic land pile. The total is 45 cards
2. Each player shuffles these 45 cards together and makes 3 15-card boosters.
3. Each player exchanges two of their boosters with someone else.

Modifying the process to have 42 cards, then adding a "rare" from the rare pile to each booster is a simple extra step.

Worth it? I don't know, but the practical matters are not dealbreakers.


I think thats a fine approach to try optimizing the draft in situations where you can complete the task by yourself, or partners that are on the same wave-length as you. However, if you have different people coming in and out of the playgroup, or have to communicate the cube to a new target population, its generally better to go with a simplified process. Once you start introducing the cube to new population groups, you lose control over a lot of variables, and people generally follow simple systems better than complicated ones anyone. Complexity can become a turn-off.

For example, in the penny cube I use generally pushed cards in the (compact) multi-color section to suggest color pair identity and draft direction. It does a generally good job of approximating the role of rares and mythics in retail draft. Is it as optimized as recruiting players to build min/maxed draft experience custom boosters in a module cube (and/or+ ULD, + multi-picks, +singleton break, custom cards, + hybrid picks, + utility anything, format)? Of course not: but than again I can also get straight to drafting, without having to worry about a player mis-building one of their min/maxed packs or feeling overwhelmed by the draft experience.

Pros and cons.
 
I think thats a fine approach to try optimizing the draft in situations where you can complete the task by yourself, or partners that are on the same wave-length as you. However, if you have different people coming in and out of the playgroup, or have to communicate the cube to a new target population, its generally better to go with a simplified process. Once you start introducing the cube to new population groups, you lose control over a lot of variables, and people generally follow simple systems better than complicated ones anyone. Complexity can become a turn-off.

I completely agree with that.

What I've been doing lately to keep complexity under control is doing the first half of the setup myself, which is the complicated part of putting together each player's 45 card pile. Then, when we get together, I give a pile to each player, ask them to shuffle and make three boosters, then exchange.

Not as simple as just mash everything together and take 3 x 15 cards, but the following reasons prevent me from doing it the simple way:
- Color imbalance in boosters
- Difficulty to shuffle hundreds of cards in something that resembles random

There would be the added complexity of adding a "rare" card to each booster after players are done making their 3 14-card piles. While I'm averse to adding complexity to that part, the fact that it doesn't require shuffling is extenuating. Also, I think it's very clear to players what's happening at that point, and a bit exciting to take 3 cards from that pile full of sweet stuff you'll get to first pick.

in the penny cube I use generally pushed cards in the (compact) multi-color section to suggest color pair identity and draft direction. It does a generally good job of approximating the role of rares and mythics in retail draft.

Exactly: using high power earmarked cards!

We make cutthroat environments with archetypes weaved, and this goes a long way into communicating what archetypes are supported and signal which ones are open.

You've done this in an elegant way: using the gold borders. Stock limited uses the gold symbols. I'd like to extend the concept and use it with non-gold cards.

Is it as optimized as recruiting players to build min/maxed draft experience custom boosters in a module cube (and/or+ ULD, + multi-picks, +singleton break, custom cards, + hybrid picks, + utility anything, format)? Of course not: but than again I can also get straight to drafting, without having to worry about a player mis-building one of their min/maxed packs or feeling overwhelmed by the draft experience.


This is too the reason why I don't run any of those extra steps. Cube is already hard enough.
 
Topdecking the only bomb in your deck exactly when you need it creates excitement. It gives a player hopeful when they are behind in the form of an out that’s easy to remember.


It's also miserable from the other side of the table. Bomb rares are the thing I dislike most about retail limited, and I'd honestly prefer it without them. That's a big reason why I like cube so much.
 
To be clear, I not saying "run Archangel Avacyn" and Pack Rat, unbeatable bomb rares are miserable. When you run a low enough power level, there is space to have cards that have higher power in relation to your average, but are still not GRBS. Think Tireless Tracker or Shriekmaw. Swingy, not unbeatable.

This suggestion is not aimed at a higher power level.


Fair enough, I misunderstood this. I was thinking you were arguing for Grave Titan and Wurmcoil!

So if Shriekmaw and Tireless Tracker are the top of your power band, what's at the bottom?
 
Well, see, I'm testing these:



As for cards I have more confidence on the power level that I'm not likely cutting:
 
Hey, just commenting because I used to run a straight up peasant cube. Then expanded into the rare land category. Then i wanted to create a more "synergistic" cube which required rares that could help support or anchor a wider array of archetypes in a cube than what was available to me at the C/U slot. So i am currently at a LOW power cube, but that doesn't mean I am running straight garbage for filler because I want to have a broader "band". I still have a base of good/strong cards, though because I am trying incorporate more (possibly niche) archetypes I do have some cards that are just not AS good if they aren't in that archetype.

Caveat is that I have a MULTIPLAYER cube (free for all, for a 3/4 player group most of the time) and so I like to have cards that make multiplayer more interesting and "FUN". I have a specific definition of fun and that mean cards and decks that don't reset games (like a gazillion "wrath" effects) or cards that stall out not allowing people to tap/play cards or attack. I want to encourage aggression so that "aggro" isn't dead since it is easy in a multi-player format for everyone to just play/pass while holding heaps of removal (or in powered cubes, just wait for the combo of death). And any cards/decks that are generally non-interactive... I want counter play and fun and interesting decisions etc...

A card like Kessig Cagebreakers is a card i continually WANT to add, but refrain from doing so because I don't like cards in a cube that isn't super powerful to give you TOO much for essentially FREE. globs of 2/2 banana's attacking for free is blatantly overpowered in my opinion. (i've tried to limit the amount of instant boring removal due to the draw/go mentality)

Here is an idea of the overall power level and an idea of the band... As you can see quite large with the idea that I want cards in the cube that aren't great or crap but in the right deck can be optimal... (i haven't done a full update to newest sets and honestly looking at older rares that I missed since i JUST got into allowing them. there is a lot of work ahead of me)

White - High


Reveilark
Cloudgoat Ranger
Galepowder Mage
Monastery Mentor
Path of Exile
Lingering Souls
Timely Reinforcements


White - Low


Lotus-Eye Mystics
Whitemane Lion
Ainok Bond-kin
Blessed Spirits
Gideon's Reproach
Shoulder to Shoulder
Vow of Duty


Blue - High


Snapcaster Mage
Waterfront Bouncer
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Mulldrifter
Triton Tactics
Fact or Fiction
Control Magic



Blue - Low

Thrummingbird
Curious Homunculus
Aquamoeba
Helium Squirter
Sapphire Drake
Obsessive Search
Think Twice
Ordeal of Thassa


Black - High


heir of Falkenrath
Kalastria Highborn
Relentless Dead
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Shriekmaw
Murderous Cut
Animate Dead
Vampiric Tutor



Black - Low


Blood Seeker
Returned Reveler
Big Game Hunter
Grave Scrabbler
Viscera Dragger
Grim Affliction
Macabre Waltz
Gissa's Bidding


Red - High
young Pyromancer
Guttersnipe
Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Hero of Oxid Ridge
Goblin Heelcutter
Temur Battle Rage
Act of Aggression
Rolling Thunder

Red - Low

Gore-House Chainwalker
Ravenous Bloodseeker
Hell's Thunder
Embodiment of Fury
Scourge Devil
Staggershock
Alchemist's Greeting
Firecat Blitzt


Green - High


Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Duskwatch Recruiter
Pelakka Wurm
Berserk
Hurricane
Rancor



Green - Low


Hamlet Captain
Scryb Ranger
Gristleback
Cytoplast Root-kin
Stingerfling Spider
Bioshift
Retreat to Kazandu
Blessings of Nature




Multi - High


Olivia, Mobilized for War
Psychatog
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Bloodbraid Elf
Maw of the Obzedat
Prophetic Bolt
Lightning Helix



Multi - Low


Skarrgan Skybreaker
Sigil Captain
Blood-Cursed Knight
Stormchaser Mage
Blaze Commando



Colorless - High


Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Isochron Scepter
Sun Droplet
Grafted Wargear



Colorless - Low


Prismatic Lens
Contagion Clasp
Trusty Machete
Signal Pest
Harvest Hand




P.S. - Hope I didn't skew / ruin the thread :)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Cagebreakers is really tame (especially in multi-player). Reveillark, cloudgoat, sol ring, and skullclamp are far over it in terms of power level.

I would restructure quite a few of those in terms of ranking, but ffa multi-player can tolerate so much its probably not a big deal. The one card I would cut asap is skullclamp, as in multi-player I would rank it higher in power than sol ring (which is actually not too bad).
 
Cagebreakers is really tame (especially in multi-player). Reveillark, cloudgoat, sol ring, and skullclamp are far over it in terms of power level.

I would restructure quite a few of those in terms of ranking, but ffa multi-player can tolerate so much its probably not a big deal. The one card I would cut asap is skullclamp, as in multi-player I would rank it higher in power than sol ring (which is actually not too bad).

Hey I know that Skullclamp is considered OP by essentially everyone when playing a non powered environment. I get it I do. a reason I find it "ok" as opposed to say JITTE is because it still offers positive/negatives in your choices. first your guy has to die, generally speaking that isn't always great in magic. Second, I have tried to have enough artifact/enchant removal so that a card can't go unchecked forever (if players are smart). And really it makes you a target...from my own anecdotal experience its really only WON WON games because of its absurd advantage a few times in the hundreds we've played. Yeah Sol Ring in multi/ffa + low power isn't all that bad. if get on turn 1 is good, but still is not even close to guaranteed victory by any means

You are right, I probably could cut it, buuuut have seen Grafted Wargear / Sun Droplet and Lightning Greaves all pose bigger issues than Clamp. Silly and anecdotal I know.

On Cagebreakers, I just am not a fan of getting so much for free... attacking and blocking are difficult decisions but knowing you are going to get X additional attackers its just unfair because a 2/2 that poofs out of thin air trades with probably a VERY high percentage of creatures in the cube (haven't done the math).


Grillo, you are too analytical and smart for me, I can't win a back n forth. I love your posts but they make my head hurt a lot :). I'm just giving my long time noob thoughts
 
You are right, I probably could cut it, buuuut have seen Grafted Wargear / Sun Droplet and Lightning Greaves all pose bigger issues than Clamp. Silly and anecdotal I know.

Alternative consideration: All the mentioned cards lead to worse games in a self-described "LOW power cube". Keep track of how many times the player who pulls a T1/T2 Sol Ring wins the game from here on out. I guarantee you that it disproportionately skews every game it shows up in. If you're playing with a bunch of Timmy players (and it seems like you might be!), I can see how it (and Skull Clamp) can pale in comparison to the obvious strength of Grafted Wargear, but it's not a very helpful evaluation lens if you can identify that something is "more busted" than something else. That doesn't necessarily mean it's still not, you know.. all busted :p
 
I
Alternative consideration: All the mentioned cards lead to worse games in a self-described "LOW power cube". Keep track of how many times the player who pulls a T1/T2 Sol Ring wins the game from here on out. I guarantee you that it disproportionately skews every game it shows up in. If you're playing with a bunch of Timmy players (and it seems like you might be!), I can see how it (and Skull Clamp) can pale in comparison to the obvious strength of Grafted Wargear, but it's not a very helpful evaluation lens if you can identify that something is "more busted" than something else. That doesn't necessarily mean it's still not, you know.. all busted :p

:) I don't wanna devolve the thread, but I probably should keep better track of certain cards mentioned hitting the table on T 1/2/3 to see if there is a winning connection. My one regret is not doing enough post gaming work whether making notes on games or decks etc... to study and reflect on later (we try to play until the last second before all have to go home leaving no time to discuss all after).

I am definitely a Timmy, but i respect spikes and one friend in the group is definitely a spike. Another friend is johnny all the way so, its a good compliment of players. Either way, I am not good at "cutting" cards, I am an "adder" so i will talk myself into any position to keep/add cards. The low power multiplayer environment does not consist of any single card that when played is an "auto I-win". I mean something like Hurricane can be but it's only been used to straight up win in one turn a couple of times...

I have a lot of thoughts jumping around about how free attackers and more bodies is more powerful than re-gaining life or at least it can be more detrimental against other players than something like Sun Droplet etc... but i just don't have the time/energy to get into that whole discussion. (though I think part of it is that we get to play so infrequently that player 2 or 3 longer games rather than a bunch of short games isn't something we are focused on... though i'm working on it)
 
I think in a multiplayer cube, those "oppressive" cards are kept in check by the self-regulatory nature of the FFA game. Power level does not need to be balanced as carefully.

I would, however, cut Skullclamp on the basis of making one's turns too long, though if people like it enough that it's worth it, don't worry about it.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Exactly. Even sol ring in FFA is not too bad, because you have 2-3 other players to keep in check whatever the sol ring player is doing. Generally early ramping (while still great and important) isn't anywhere near as decisive as in other contexts, due to the density of removal generally online on any given turn. Power rankings are just really wonky there, and have more to do with perception, which is why we're seeing kessig cagebreakers and psychatog spoken in the same breath as skull clamp and sol ring.

That being said, the only card we had that ever really was truly "oppressive" in a FFA multi-layer context, was skull clamp. Even with three players, the skull clamp player could pretty much tank whatever it was the other two players were doing, and it was the only card where you could just brute force your way to a win with. You just end up attaching it to whatever your best threat is, and than any response from the other two players just powers you to into more "must respond" threats and more answers to hit their "must respond" threats. And thats really all FFA multi-play is at the end of the day, a big slugging match that goes on until one player can establish the best threat on the board, occuring during a gap in the other players ability to respond. Skull clamp lets you break symmetry on that dynamic in a way, and to a degree, that no other card does.
 
I've been told Dropbox doesn't display HTML anymore, so I'll just transcribe 2 boosters here:

Booster 1


Booster 2
 
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