General Making control decks more interesting

[Dom Harvey]

I'm sure we've had a similar thread before but it's still an issue so I figured I'd make a new one.

My problem is twofold:

- It's hard to build control decks when most of your card choices have synergy rather than raw power in mind. Control needs the generically good cards - the glue that ties everything together - to fill out the deck. To take an example from my Cube, Puppeteer Clique is fantastic in the decks it's good in but it can't fill the role of control finisher well. This is an easy problem to fix, but even if you do...

- ...the control decks that you see in most Cubes just aren't sweet. A pile of planeswalkers and removal spells is a solid, reliable strategy, but it's not memorable in the way that the best synergistic decks are. The control decks I've had in Cube kinda blur together in my mind.

I'm more excited about Sorin, Grim Nemesis than a lot of people because it naturally leads to exciting moments: either you don't set it up and there's suspense about what you flip, or you do and get the visceral satisfaction of KOing them with Dig Through Time or w/e. It also makes you pay attention to your curve in an unusual way during drafting/deckbuilding, though an unanswered Sorin is usually good enough anyway.

One possible solution is to graft combo 0r 'build around me' elements into control decks e.g. Thing in the Ice, The Gitrog Monster, Life from the Loam in general. What other stuff falls into this category?

Post examples of sweet control decks from your Cube if you have any!

 

[Aoret]

Gonna spew out a few random thoughts on this.

I think the best bet is to pin down what we mean by "control" i.e. what the essential elements of this are. I can't recall exactly where, but I know this has been argued about at length previously. IIRC Grillo has a much more broad/permissive definition of what can constitute "control". I think we can get a decent start if we take the sort of traditional notion where we say we're talking about a deck that (sometimes narrowly) avoids dying, generates card advantage, and wins eventually after reaching a position of strength.

The next step is to kinda map this onto our cubes (for the sake of argument we'll keep it to standard high power riptide fare), and from there decide which elements can change and which can't. We'll have to live with the boring elements that are key to the archetype, whether because of necessity (environmental constraints) or because of our definition.

I think the stuff we have to keep basically boils down to: sweepers, generic answers, and card selection. Sweepers is the one I'd most like to get away from, but I think also impossible because it just isn't "control" to me without them. Card draw doesn't feel necessary to me because advantage can be generated through so many different means (including sweepers). I think we can switch up what our wincons look like as well. Beyond that, nothing comes immediately to mind as being a good axis to tweak control on.

On the subject of memorable decks, if we're willing to mix up our definition of control, I've been really enjoying running aggro-control archetypes in my own cube. I'm not sure how portable this is as I've had to really push my counterspell suite and flash/instant count to get it workable. My wasteland thing also really pushes the archetype forward as well; the deck thrives in low mana situations and LD allows it to prolong the turn count spent in that state. I've said a few of these things before, but I think I can elaborate a bit on how this deck relates to the framework I've laid out above.

Aggro-control decks in my environment (sometimes narrowly) avoid dying by keeping the opponent completely off of their plan. They generate card advantage by selectively allowing the opponent to spend resources on things that don't matter. A great example of this is allowing an opponent to cast something like a bone splitter, effectively 1-for-0-ing themselves since they'll never be allowed to equip it to anything (because all creatures get countered, or better yet, bounced/killed in response to equip activation). These decks win incidentally by applying pressure with whatever happens to be available, whether that's a t1 goblin guide or a t4 snapcaster mage that remanded their play. In all honesty, this is basically just a weaker version of a straight control deck because what I've outlined above is essentially just a normal control deck without sweepers or finishers; it relies on the opponent having a nonzero amount of non-business spells as well as on-par draws as compared to the opponent (i.e. you can't get flooded or you lose). It's a fun archetype but probably not the direction we should go.

 

[blacksmithy]

The control decks that have been successful and memorable in my cube generally have a few things in common:
-they play plenty of early drops like Perilous Myr and Omenspeaker
-they use a strong advantage engine like Cloudpost + Glimmerpost or Whip of Erebos (or, yknow, a PW)
-they have a combo-ish finisher like Form of the Dragon or Consuming Aberration in addition to a couple lategame bombs

So I guess my advice is, include control-friendly early drops, Posts, and some combo-esque cards in your cube for your control decks to play around with. If you dislike mainstream combos, try some janky ones like Mike&Trike (has actually killed someone multiple times in my cubes) or Retreat to Coralhelm + KOTR + landfall (I'm waiting eagerly for it to happen). These are bad enough as combos that non-control decks won't bother, but the control player who wants another form of inevitability will.

 

[ColonelSanders]

I've noticed there seems to be a lot of indifference towards planeswalkers on this forum. They provide incentives to play slow midrange/control without needing to be insta-stabilizing or untouchable executioners. They provide the card advantage that control needs, but can be interacted with by all colors without requiring niche removal. And lastly, my impression is that the average player finds them fun to play with. I find the struggle of trying to protect/kill them to lead to pretty exciting matches.

That being said, there are definitely bullshit planeswalkers (6 mana elspeth being at the top of that list for me). Since I do customs, I've been able to fill in color slots with non token spamming planeswalkers. If that's not an option, maybe reduce the number of boardwipes/increase their cost while letting back in a few planeswalkers? Before I went to the darkside, I found that it wasn't really planeswalkers or board wipes that made control unfun to play against. It was the games were you go turn 4 planeswalker into turn 5 board wipe that just felt bad.

As for the aggro control decks, I think the prowess.deck is a great archetype to support, but it doesn't provide quite the same feel as playing a more traditional control deck.

 

[Eric Chan]

Maybe it's too low powered, but I've always wanted to support Mystical Teachings-based control, so that your random pile of removal, counterspells, and card draw suddenly becomes a "toolbox". Grillo had a fantastic post on his own cube thread recently about how he supports this archetype.

Gifts Ungiven is another card I desperately want to make work as a build-around, but am just stumped on how.

 

[sigh]

Maybe it's too low powered, but I've always wanted to support Mystical Teachings-based control, so that your random pile of removal, counterspells, and card draw suddenly becomes a "toolbox". Grillo had a fantastic post on his own cube thread recently about how he supports this archetype.

Gifts Ungiven is another card I desperately want to make work as a build-around, but am just stumped on how.

unburial rites. Right? Isn't that like, the combo?

I recently tossed it back in. I want to see if my drafters even try anything with it, and maybe that can inform my quest a little.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, but it'd be both boring and narrow if that was the only thing you could do with Gifts, not to mention locking people into three colours. Unburial Rites works fine with looters, self-mill, or just by itself as a value card; it doesn't need much help.

 

[quanta]

Is it possible to maybe have control decks be based more around synergy? Maybe even build arounds? For example, Laboratory Maniac turns drawing cards into a win condition.

For an example that would only work in a very narrow type of cube, Ghirapur Aether Grid seems like a combination of win condition and removal in a deck with a very high artifact density. Control decks like mana rocks, and clues from SoI play well with Aether Grid too (although most of the clue cards themselves don't seem very control oriented).

 

[sigh]

Yeah, but it'd be both boring and narrow if that was the only thing you could do with Gifts, not to mention locking people into three colours. Unburial Rites works fine with looters, self-mill, or just by itself as a value card; it doesn't need much help.

Yeah, maybe... but it's kinda the Step 1 for making gifts happen. I notice that you do have rites, so Step 1 is done. Beyond that, it certainly is a conundrum. Some potentials:


Edit:

I'm also of the opinion that gifts doesn't really work in one color, or would have to be a major blue theme....

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Using some synergy / combo as the big finnish to a control match sounds like a nice incentive to play all those counterspells and sweepers. Like, it gives you something to work towards, some real game plan that has drama.

 

[Eric Chan]

The tricky part about a synergy-heavy control deck is that, by their very nature, control decks live and die on their cheap interaction. In a way, an interactive control deck, with a curve as lean and sleek as an aggro deck, is every bit as satisfying both to draft and to play as any synergy-based deck, though I agree with Dom's initial premise that the builds themselves are less unique or memorable in the long run.

Without taking away the core of what makes a control deck, well, a control deck, anything 'sweet' grafted onto it would have to co-exist with the bread and butter of removal, counterspells, and card draw, which aren't going anywhere. Cards that naturally pair with cheap interaction, like Thing in the Ice and Mystical Teachings, might be less of a stretch than 'engine' cards, like Life from the Loam or Gifts Ungiven, which requires the core of the deck itself to change dramatically.

There might exist room for combo-control archetypes, not unlike the Shaun McLaren UWR control decks in Modern that finished with Splinter Twin. It would have to be some killer combo, though, so as not to take up a lot of deck space, but still be able to close out games swiftly.

 

[Aoret]

Maybe it's too low powered, but I've always wanted to support Mystical Teachings-based control, so that your random pile of removal, counterspells, and card draw suddenly becomes a "toolbox". Grillo had a fantastic post on his own cube thread recently about how he supports this archetype.

Has anyone tried this at a higher power level? My target count for teachings is 84, which seems like it's probably towards the high end. If this is a compact enough archetype (I haven't read Grillo's post yet), I'd definitely be interested in giving it a whirl.

Since I do customs, I've been able to fill in color slots with non token spamming planeswalkers.

Do you mind posting some examples? I'm down to try these out if they look right for my environment.

 

[Eric Chan]

Now that a lot of us run Draining Whelk - which is a sweet card, even without Teachings! - I think we might be only one or two flash creatures away from a Mystical Teachings deck being a real thing.

 

[Dom Harvey]

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, that card was just a hair short of playable without Teachings to give it a boost.

In all seriousness, though, I figure aggro and midrange decks would snap up Avacyn too quickly for a control deck to make a play for her.

Jank, junk, or jewel?



Maybe these are ultimately unnecessary, though; between Restoration Angel / Vendilion Clique / Venser, Shaper Savant, there might already be critical mass.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

For a fun challenge think of control deck finishers that aren't creatures: that will most likely push you in an interesting direction.

 

[safra]

For a fun challenge think of control deck finishers that aren't creatures: that will most likely push you in an interesting direction.

??

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Or planeswalkers

 

[ColonelSanders]

Do you mind posting some examples? I'm down to try these out if they look right for my environment.

A couple points to keep in mind:
My cube is always sealed, so nobody gets to "draft all the planeswalkers"
Aggro is roughly 1/3 of the decks that get played, meaning durdly planeswalkers can definitely be a liability.
The fact that they're all multicolor was very intentional.
-and-
I make no promises of balance.

http://imgur.com/a/mM8GS

 

[shamizy]

The most fun that I've had playing control is when you have an alternate win-con as your main way of beating your opponent. A pile of removal and powerful walkers is nice, but that isn't a formula for exciting gameplay each draft. Reanimator and Lab Maniac decks have been the most fun for me, especially trying to figure out when to use certain pieces of spot removal and where I'd need to make trades/chump to keep going on. It was more fun trying to craft the correct hand/set-up to reach my payoff in time.

 

[Tzenmoroth]

Alternative wincons:

Interesting creatures that can function as finishers:

 

[Eric Chan]

The most fun that I've had playing control is when you have an alternate win-con as your main way of beating your opponent.

That just reminded me:

 

[blacksmithy]

Some of my favorite noncreature finishers include:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Good ol'



to the dome

Edit: Possibly Geistblasted

 

[Kirblinx]

This was my most memorable control deck I drafted from my cube:

Spoiler: Kirblinx (2-0-1): UB Tinker Mill

UB Slaver Control

Sure it has decent PW density, but the fact it had a small combo (Tinker to Mindslaver) made it pretty memorable. Although the biggest factor is this card:

This card is a great control finisher. All you need to do is drop it at the right time and use removal that is cheaper than their threats and you win 'the downward spiral'. It always makes memorable games and I am sad that it still doesn't see as much love as it should (except RavebornMuse, who loves it as much as I).

Jank, junk, or jewel?



Maybe these are ultimately unnecessary, though; between Restoration Angel / Vendilion Clique / Venser, Shaper Savant, there might already be critical mass.

A tad too underpowered (jank), I like this guy (janky jewel), too much green (jank), other finishers are better (junk), he costs how much? (janky junk)
Ultimately I think having just 1-2 flash creatures should be enough for teachings as having a decent amount of instants should make a 4 mana tutor worth it (Teachings for Gifts Ungiven for the durdle express)