Card/Deck Making Gruul do more than stompy, or make stompy Gruul more interesting?

So, I know we've been talking a bunch about giving color pairs their own identities, both by figuring out some really out-there stuff as well as by just going with what WotC have been doing themselves and expanding on that.

UR Spellslinging I believe is a good example of this, as it's something that is sort of loosely presented by WotC (not the least in the Izzet cards that have this more or less explicitly written on them) as the thing that UR does. GB usually gets its self-mill dredge stuff, RB does some interesting things with sacrificing and if you want to be spicey add in the grand-theft-auto-sac combo of stealing your cake and and eating it. You get the idea.

GR, however, feels like it most often ends up as some kind of "straight beatdown" pair? I'm not saying it can't be just that, but since we're (some of us at least) all about layering and bleeding themes to the point where we get some interesting and sometimes unforeseen card interactions I wouldn't mind there being more gimmicky stuff hidden somewhere deep in those fiery squatter-hearts.

So, some of the stuff I've seen on the cube talk forum and in some cube threads have been:

Potatoes & Steak



Sort of the archetypical red green cube midrange value stuff? You get the super sweet gold card, play some green ramp, throw some searing spears and go to town.

I don't think its wrong to have Gruul be just this, but depending on the style of cube you're running (a lot of layered sort of niche themes more similar to retail, or just a more traditional 'pile of good cards' cube) you might to have something more exotic for dinner. Nothing of what I've listed here is really out of the ordinary in most of our cubes, I think, so it's not like its a theme you have to put an effort in seeing ending up in the final 40s.

Monster Meal



But wait, Rasmus, isn't this just Steak in disguise? I mean pretty much yeah it is. But it's also a keyword we've seen that ties itself into the +1/+1 counters we talked about earlier, so its slightly different from the etb-value style ramp beef above. It also helps getting that mana sink quota up!

One Two Punch Knock-Out



I was initially going to just list all the bloodrush-style cards here, but I realised that you are probably going to have to have a creature to bloodrush onto, and that means you're playing a GRx aggro deck. So this is the other half of the traditional stompy idea in Gruul, but we're starting a bit earlier than the big-fattie-beatdown earlier in this list. A thing I'd like to highlight though is the fact that we are growing our stompers, either with end-of-turn of effects or indefinitely, in order to push through more damage and as a source of removal. Red has burn, but that only takes you so far in terms of dealing with blockers, and there is plenty of good combat tricks! A bonus is that combat tricks tie themselves into spells matter themes.

I Despise Fun With All of My Being Package



This is the flavor of Gruul I feel the least inclined to even consider, but if you have high enough of a power level to have aggro struggle, I suppose you could count this as a way of introducing disruption to the color pair. It's pretty god damn boring in anything but grim mongo, I believe, and probably I shouldn't even suggest you to have this as one of the things that GR players do.

Tasteful Storm



This is a controversial one primarily I think because of how incredibly poisonous it is, and the way people have experienced it both in their cubes and (failing at) forcing it on VMA. Still, I think it's possible to pull off as a weak sub theme and if anything probably becomes a primarily red theme that bleeds into the other colors through spells matters and similar "I just happened to have fire off a bunch of cards in the same turn" strategies (which I guess is the combo-esque giant growth pump deck?).

Ion-Grafted Counters



Not really a RG exclusive, but it's there, and they happen to have some really really good enablers. I feel like +1/+1 counters are very present in pretty much all of the colors except maybe blue, and even they have some cards. The idea is to add another resource that you want to care about, as a way to add some new dynamics to the decks as well just presenting some reach to aggro (after all we're just making dudes bigger, and bigger is always better, and the biggest is the best).

+1/+1 I think can be kind of tricky to pull of as a matters-theme because it might trick you into drafting the same deck over and over, but luckily you can make the matters-card be spread all over the WUBRG so that you don't limit yourself to a particular color pairing (ie GR or Abzan). Ion Storm is also very dependant on the power level of your cube, because a counter as well a 3RR just for a shock might be a bit lack luster depending on what your opponent is doing. There's been plenty of insightful things said about this idea on this forum before.

What does Gruul do in your cube? Does it do unusual stuff, is it just the good old trusted ramp and knuckles? Did I forget to list some really good Gruul-theme?
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Great post, Rasmus. As you saw in my Modern Archetype cube thread, Gruul was the colour combination that gave me the most trouble by far when coming up with interesting designs. A lot of RG cards lend themselves well to good-stuff-midrange, and if you're not careful, the decks players draft in these colours end up becoming boring piles of value cards with a moderate hint of aggression. It's not the end of the world, but I often wish the colour pair did something more unique.

The only time RG has ever done well in my cube, it was with a midrangy land destruction build. Hmmm, looking at that list has me wondering if I should run either Plow Under or Primal Command again. I think that land destruction is a fine Gruul theme for cubes with a relatively high power level, actually, though I probably still wouldn't run the actual card Stone Rain.
 
Cool post.

I have a couple of themes, the counters themes and overlapping graveyard theme.



Plus usual random monsters with counters.

Graveyard theme is actually pretty deep:



Etc etc
 
I feel like +1/+1 counters are very present in pretty much all of the colors except maybe blue
Not only are Graft and evolve both found in blue and related to +1 counters. But blue also has a few of the most powerful "eat a +1 counter" cards:

http://magiccards.info/query?q=o:remove o:counter o:draw o:+1 c!u&v=card&s=cname
Drop a Sapphire Drake as your last creature and your big green creatures that have been affected by Outlast, Travel Prep, etc, are suddenly big flying finishers.

As far as Gruul goes, the simple solution is not to support all 10 guilds if some of them are boring. But FWIW, Skarrg Guildmage is my favorite Gruul card, and "interact with lands" by destroying them or Awakenering them is certainly a thematically Gruuly way to go.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
One stupid theme I have in Red/Green in Pinatas. This involves taking a pinata:




Then hitting it with a stick:




Its not a very GOOD theme, but its pretty on point as far as the colors themes are concerned and it is definitely hilarious.

Discard/Madness/Graveyard definitely has something going on too, but its not a coherent "theme" so much as a resource that decks utilize. There's a lot there and I've cubed a lot of good decks on the back of Stormbind over the years, although admittedly its power level isn't what it used to be.
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
Not only are Graft and evolve both found in blue and related to +1 counters. But blue also has a few of the most powerful "eat a +1 counter" cards:

http://magiccards.info/query?q=o:remove o:counter o:draw o:+1 c!u&v=card&s=cname
Drop a Sapphire Drake as your last creature and your big green creatures that have been affected by Outlast, Travel Prep, etc, are suddenly big flying finishers.

When I was first scouring through cards to make a +1/+1 counter theme in my cube, I definitely thought it was going to be UG based, because of all the cool Ravnica stuff. As it developed I realised there actually weren't any blue +1/+1 counter cards I wanted to run at all. Green, red, and white all have plenty of really excellent +1/+1 creatures, while blue only had a few options that I would have to force into the cube for the sake of the archetype. It surprised me. Other people seem to be enjoying a few blue +1/+1 counter cards though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I really like the one-two punch approach in stompy, where you have to decide if you want to leverage your pump spells out as spot removal or as counters to removal effects.

G/R pod with treason effects is also pretty good.

One card I always wanted to brew around (but didn't really have the room for) was:



It ramps, it provides reach, and it also triggers bloodthirst.

So you can run this crew:




The bloodthirst counters tie into a counters theme; the buffs fit into spells matters. Fits in lower power formats obviously.
 
You can make zoo a thing. I liked chris' deck from our last draft that was essentially just creatures man lands and pump spells, but it sort of gave you a number of avenues of attack that each had their advantages and disadvantages and let you take advantage of opponent's play.

One thing I've drafter in peasant a number of times is RG control. It's a very controling and card advantage oriented midranged deck. I'll try to find my 3-0 post regarding it and link it after my run. I've also seen a similar sort of deck in online pauper games called RG tempo that uses extra cards in the form of lands off 2/2s for 3 to fuel cards like flame jab and faithless looting to try to set up a state where your blastoderm or whatever can be king of the road. Obviously firebolt makes an appearance.

I love destroying lands, I dunno about you lol. I also feel like decks that can't function if they stumble getting to 4-5 are lame af, but that depends on how you've stocked your cube. I like my control decks to be 1-3 mana centric and based around playing more than one card in a turn.

Now we come to one of my personal faves: Storm Aggro. This gets along great with madness and spells matter too because duh. So many decent RG stormable cards out there. So much advantage to be had from a faithless looting lol. Manamorphose reminds me a lot of gitaxian probe lads. Supporting this might mean sinking more bleeder archetypes into other colour combinations but I really like discard/graveyard/spell velocity/tokens as a foundation for inter-colour interest. If your deck is full of 1 drops already you aren't gonna have that much trouble finding late game storm fodder anyway, but it can be tricky to keep your hand full of things you like so you have to build in some card advantage or selection into this archetype too. Remember there is a reckless wurm as well as an arrogant one. Flashback is one of red's best sources of card advantage. Use it!



Wizards, pleas give us a good red looter soon!
 

CML

Contributor
One stupid theme I have in Red/Green in Pinatas. This involves taking a pinata:




Then hitting it with a stick:




Its not a very GOOD theme, but its pretty on point as far as the colors themes are concerned and it is definitely hilarious.

Discard/Madness/Graveyard definitely has something going on too, but its not a coherent "theme" so much as a resource that decks utilize. There's a lot there and I've cubed a lot of good decks on the back of Stormbind over the years, although admittedly its power level isn't what it used to be.


oh man rofl. i love it
 
A peasant RG control deck from the 3-0 page:

Played Denix's Peasant cube yesterday. It was fun. He took out all the shitty guildgates and stuff though because they were so bad, so we've been playing with no fixing (and no signets!) in the cube for 3 weeks now :s suffice it to say stock in molten rain has gone way down.

Peasant RG Control










Midranged my ass I had more cards than most players all game and played about as reactively as I did aggressively. Double Arc Lightning is just malicious in this format. I'm glad I've had both of them in my draft the last 3 times I played peasant.

Despite being top heavy the deck played pretty well when it wasn't mulling to 5. I liked the number of turns I had multiple lines of play with 7-8 mana available but sat on my cards so I could have more opportunity to react to potential plays.

Highlight of the draft: My deck is so soft to Consume Strength it was just hilarious how often I knew bill was sitting on those and I'd have to sit on my ass. Seeing Moldervine Cloak bin a Dreg Mangler was pretty fun too. I had a lot of trouble killing 5+ toughness creatures too so that was pretty funny.

GB gold cards are becoming some of my favourite in this format. That mender is such a beating.
 
When I was first scouring through cards to make a +1/+1 counter theme in my cube, I definitely thought it was going to be UG based, because of all the cool Ravnica stuff. As it developed I realised there actually weren't any blue +1/+1 counter cards I wanted to run at all. Green, red, and white all have plenty of really excellent +1/+1 creatures, while blue only had a few options that I would have to force into the cube for the sake of the archetype. It surprised me. Other people seem to be enjoying a few blue +1/+1 counter cards though.

This was my feeling as well. The trickiest part I think is deciding on what payoff cards you want to play (as far as I know, black has NONE par from murderous redcap!), since the sources to the counters are more or less trivial (so many good creatures come with free counters, and there are plenty of counter-adding tricks and enchantments), and blue didn't really have that many I felt I wanted to run. Tezzeret's Gambit and Ordeal of Thassa was the ones I looked at in terms of pay-off cards, and you could argue that gambit is colorless. What cards are viable is still dependent on the cube you've got of course so, I'm not going to say UG isn't going to cut it as a +1/+1 pair. In terms of sources for counters blue has got both cloudfin raptor and chasm skulker, and those I think are good enough to make blue bleed into decks of color every now and then?

Lucre, I like that idea of RG land-control! It's a nice little intersection between cards that are going to show up anyway, because ramp want their lands and discarding and looting has been seen in all kinds of decks. I also like the idea of having really pissed off nature lovers being so fed up with city-folk that they begin lobbing their beloved trees at them.

I'm a Lumberjack




honorable mention: stormbind and borborygmos (why couldn't borbo cost 5GGG instead?)

If I understand Lucre right, the idea is to have a way to fuel discard-for-value outlets as well as utilizing spare lands from the land-fetching creatures you see played in red green. You can run madness/threshold/flashback cards as a way to tie it back into other stuff. It looks like it lends itself really well to graveyard themes, and say what you will about graveyard value themes in cubes, its really easy to bleed them out in the whole WUBRG section if transparency of themes is something you're after. Lumberjacking doesn't look like it'll come together every draft, but I think it looks like of those subtle sub themes I felt was missing. Gruul getting the chance to feel clever.

One card I always wanted to brew around (but didn't really have the room for) was:



It ramps, it provides reach, and it also triggers bloodthirst.


Pingers and Bloodthirst is pretty cute! I know you already run a bunch of red pingers, and have had high praise for them in at least the innistrad cube.


You can make zoo a thing. I liked chris' deck from our last draft that was essentially just creatures man lands and pump spells, but it sort of gave you a number of avenues of attack that each had their advantages and disadvantages and let you take advantage of opponent's play.

What constitutes a Zoo deck though? Isn't that more or less red green aggro? When I hear the word Zoo I think of stuff like Kird Apes, Nacatls and Loxodons, but maybe you have a broader definition of it? I'm asking just because I'm curious if there is more going on than I'm getting, or if it's just the classic low curve and ghor-clan rampaging for the lethal.
 
I've also seen a similar sort of deck in online pauper games called RG tempo that uses extra cards in the form of lands off 2/2s for 3 to fuel cards like flame jab and faithless looting to try to set up a state where your blastoderm or whatever can be king of the road. Obviously firebolt makes an appearance.
I played the list back then and it was awesome. It also played bounce lands for the extra flame jab value. Regarding Graveyard cubes Flame Jab + Burning Vengeance is pretty derp. Kinda like build your own Keranos, God of Storms
 
It's not poisonous at all, it's really good.

Slow ramp



Land matters



Increases hand size/cards in hand



flashback



Retrace



Invocations



threshold



cards that count number of things in graveyards



delve



Other ways of utilising graveyard



Etc etc - you probably want your cube pointing in a graveyard direction first, but he's pretty good in it.
 
Essentially isn't Hermit Druid and Satyr Wayfinder different takes on the same idea? So one of them let's you get card advantage after initial investment, the other gives you the effect immediately.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I mean, there are some notable differences for sure, but they fit the same idea, but one as immediate while the other provides incremental value.
 
I think I like Viper and Harmonize. The other cards feels like cards you need to work way too much for, and you are already in a color pair that doest lend itself to control all that naturally. Harmonise almost feels like enough explicit card draw support. There is another card that you didn't list.



The goal here I guess is to find cards that makes controlly midrange decks able to come together, but without feeling forced and stealing card slots from the things GE usually does (stomp and smash)
 
We're going all the way down if it means making gruul doing whacky stuff, I guess. But honestly, can't it be a good exercise to brainstorm shit by starting from the premise that the power level doesn't really matter? Ultimately I think as long as the cards you run in the theme can be ran in several other styles of decks, the drafts will be fun. Then again, it's a lot more fun to draft cards and not turds (and we've probably suggested a few turds already).
 
Top