Card/Deck [MCD] Sweeperz

CML

Contributor
back in the day, when men were men and creatures were shit, control ruled magic like the dragon king ruled westeros. it was 'interactive' in the sense that big brother was 'interactive' with winston smith, or an autistic person is 'interactive' with you on a date: the blue mages may not have done much, but you sure as hell weren't going to, either.

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'no.'

this was neither fun nor all that profitable, so then they printed the creature. i guess its genesis could be traced back to onslaught block, and the creature's power peaked at alara block. along the way you got stuff that hybridized old archetypes with creatures, like the combo deck elves and the control deck faeries.

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'quite the spec pick.'

in constructed control is in a bad place. in standard, esper and bant have been marginalized as players realize that their late-game plan is totally outclassed by, of all things, green-based value reanimator. in modern, the fair blue decks are trash -- and, as one combo gets banned every three months, that's one less reason to play them. in legacy, miracles is disappearing, and stoneblade has turned into esper stoneblade and then deathblade, as force of will decks with clocks like RUG and merfolk assume the 'combo-basher' role in the metagame...

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'end of the line, hari seldon.'

There is ONE place where control is still king, though. vintage? well, maybe two. but i'm talking about CUBE.
Why is control so good in cube?
-people fuck up with their design and don't include enough fixing or make that fixing control-oriented (signets, bouncelands, mana rocks). the mana in cube is intrinsically hugely biased towards control.
-deeper card pool than aggro -- there are a zillion 4-mana draw spells with a decent VORP (even vs. JTMS!), but there's only one goblin guide
-highlander format: control runs naturally off a bunch of one-ofs. this is yet another reason i imagine jason has broken singleton.
-yet another design fuckup: people make their curves too damn high.
-raw power: nobody's gonna argue savannah lions is as good of a card as JTMS.
(and finally, we come to the topic for this post...)
-TOO MANY GODDAMN SWEEPERS

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'the curve is too DAMN HIGH.'

sweepers are of course very powerful effects, but their power in constructed is tempered by their being 'dead' in control mirrors, or not great against a resolved thragtusk / angel of serenity / thrun, or what have you. in cube, though, everyone plays at least some dudes. so, what to do!
in an old cube article (for which i can't find the relevant image, which is broken in the original article) andy cooperfauss decried the huge amount of sweepers in the modo cube, and i strongly agree with his criticism. that cube design is hugely biased towards control already -- isn't it embarrassing enough that LSV is second-picking beacon of destruction in the world championships?

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'slobad, i choose YOU!'

merely criticizing the modo cube isn't enough -- it's the easiest target since mark sanford -- so then we have to figure out how many sweepers we want in our own cubes, and also what they should do. i'll post my own configuration with some brief comments, then get out of the way. (for reference: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/114)

white
day of judgment, hallowed burial
the queen color of sweepers. 'destroy all creatures' and 'destroy all creatures -- with a twist' are the effects you'll most often see. owing to their high power curve and functional similarities, i only like a couple of these in cube at once. personally i like to rotate in and out sweepers. here are some other possibilities:
winds of rath, austere command, planar cleansing, martial coup
some cards i don't like: planar collapse, wrath of god (give regeneration a chance!)

blue
bounce. since blue is intrinsically a powerful color with a million other control elements, you don't need more than one of these.
like: cyclonic rift, evacuation
dislike: upheaval (jesus, upheaval)

black
conditional wraths and one wrath itself!
like: damnation, black sun's zenith, infest
dislike: massacre wurm, gloomdrifter

red
damage-based ground-pounders.
like: earthquake, mizzium mortars
dislike: rolling earthquake, volcanic fallout, slagstorm, bonfire of the damned, jokulhaups (you win if you have a walker, cool)
?: pyroclasm

green
nah.

multicolor
anything you want...
like: jund charm, pernicious deed, firespout
dislike: supreme verdict, merciless eviction

colorless
indiscriminate and slow and conditional.
like: nevinyrral's disk, engineered explosives
dislike: all is dust

conclusion: i have a 405 and roughly 10 sweepers. for concentration, somewhere in the 2%-3% range is probably right. for functionality, i like to have a range of different effects at different CMCs, similar to how black will have a 'removal curve' (conditional at 1, doom blade at 2, doom blade plus at 3, 2-for-1's at 4, etc.)
swingy effects can be fun, but use them sparingly. otherwise we end up with old-school control or (even worse) EDH! and that kind of interaction is no interaction at all.

post your favorite sweepers and the reasons i'm wrong about them here!
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Goddamn, Chris, you have a way with words. The first couple of intro paragraphs are so poetic and eloquent. Did you just whip this up in the twenty odd minutes since your last post?

Wish I could hit that Like button about twenty times more.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Might you go into why you don't like the ones listed? :p
If your gripe with Rolling Earthquake is a flavor one and not a gameplay one, maybe I can let it slide...
(Yeah it hits everything. I think it should)
 

CML

Contributor
oh gosh eric you're too kind.

chris, my big preference is for a variety of effects that can't be jammed indiscriminately and aren't always wham-bam-thank you ma'am-first picks. i guess they can't suck either like gloomdrifter or planar collapse but most of the other dislikes are based on that criterion. yeah, even the 'quake

i really like the utility ones that hit certain problem permanents. EE is one of my favorite cards of all time.

finally, i think armageddon is awesome
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I don't much like Wrath of God, either. White needed a bit of a kick, so I doubled up on Day of Judgment rather than running the first Wrath, because what did Troll Ascetic ever do to anyone?

Infest was really good back when I ran it, and I'm happy to see the love for it. I've kind of soured on BSZ because it takes so much goddamn mana to kill anything worth killing. Massacre Wurm seems fine, if a bit underpowered, actually.

Pyroclasm is ok in my books, but only because I feel like someone's gotta keep the aggro decks at bay. I ran Firespout for the longest time, but recently switched to Slagstorm, because I want drafters to commit to RR if they want to sweep for 3, dammit. None of this wussy "splash a sweeper" stuff.

I've never cast an Oblivion Stone before, but it's in my cube, and some people like it. I suppose it's fine, though it's no Disk.
 

CML

Contributor
THAT SON OF A BITCH HAD HEXPROOF. seriously though i think the other days-plus have interesting variations in functionality, like hallowed burial costs 5 and is usually a little stronger with the graveyard themes, but then recycling the creatures can f up your anti-survival plan or blow other corner cases.

i might wanna try wurm heyo

pyroclasm is cool but jund charm does basically the same thing and also ganks graveyards and has a kitchen-finks-buffing mode so i like that one more. being in three colors is a pisser though

disk seems sweet, i think i might want to give it a go. can you describe its effect on games?
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Cast it, Die on the following turn :p
In all seriousness it's pretty sweet. I once kept it down with an Ajani Vengeant for a while, that was a cool one.

Massacre wurm is awesome. It's good at stabilizing, and sometimes it just kills people.
The best stories are when people forget the damage trigger isn't just for one turn: Massacre Wurm, untap, Wrath for 14 points.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, I like Hallowed Burial an unusual amount, too. I've only recently swapped it out for its miracle cousin, Terminus, but I think I might switch back. Six mana is just that much slower than five.

Kidding aside, Chris more or less got it right. I'm really reluctant to play O-Stone because it's so goddamn plodding. I've seen other people get it to work when the board state is more or less even, and someone puts it down as a sort of insurance policy, to protect themselves from the worst. Just.. so sloooooow. I'd wouldn't be caught dead playing it, but again, some of my players like it, so I leave it in.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I find O-Stone works best in the ramp decks anyways, so it's speed is slightly offset. It's not really a control wrath, which I'm okay with.
Disk has a much more interesting tension with it, and if you run him, Tez 1.0 can untap to wrath early. Most notably: Both of these provide an answer to Artifacts/Enchantments in colors where that isn't possible, shoring up another of black's weaknesses, and for that I can't thank them enough.
Also maybe it's the size of my cube (540) but I've been enjoying both terminus and hallowed burial.
 

CML

Contributor
My preference is for dork-based ramp.

I'm gonna try Disk next week I think. That and the Wurm. I'm not even sure if we're gonna Cube today. I wanna draft MM REAL BAD

O-Stone is one of those rarities that's sweet in Modern but terrible in Cube, I guess. I think it's because our lands only tap for 1 and not 2,2,3
 

CML

Contributor
slagstorm - meh, i guess i like the weirder red spells some more. it might be totally irrational. i got clobbered by that stupid wolf run nexus deck a million times.

supreme verdict - i actually have raesons for this one. 'can't be countered' and being gold are both negatives for me
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I briefly ran a second Day of Judgment instead of Supreme Verdict (I now run Hallowed Burial). I saw no reason to restrict a wrath to a gold slot, and the second Day was better for the flexibility of the environment.

Not liking Slagstorm seems pretty arbitrary. I took it out briefly for Blasphemous Act, but that switch may soon get reversed.
 
I don't much like Wrath of God, either. White needed a bit of a kick, so I doubled up on Day of Judgment rather than running the first Wrath, because what did Troll Ascetic ever do to anyone?

I think what troll ascetic did was put on pants. If you don't fill your cube with ways to hurt troll ascetic or cards faster than him or cards that get around it really well, it also just sits there and road blocks pretty well until you find your equipment for it. It's a bit of a frustrating card, but I like that part of magic so I don't really mind. Feels like you'd have some "no fun" problems when you make troll ascetic good.

CML, it feels a little weird that you're way more into Jund Charm than Pyroclasm but dislike Supreme Verdict on the basis of colour requirement. Actually it might be kinda neat to try limiting people's access to wraths by making some of the better ones multicolour. Not like UW needs help getting played though.

I love 5cc wraths. Some cubes make wrathing on turn 3 or 4 really necessary but I just think 5cc is a really good place for your weird wraths. Burial all the way baby.
Massacre Wurm sounds like a fun card. Just wish black's good and flavorful cards weren't so wonky.
 

CML

Contributor
mmmmmm troll-worship. people were gonna make that a thing, but then they printed liliana, so then they tried to put auras on trolls, then they discovered that there were 8 hexproof one-drops. "no-fun" problems manifest themselves in modern in the form of the asinine bogle deck, whose power level is high, whose skill component is low, whose games make me wish i was masturbating with a razor blade.

you're right that i'm f.o.s. on color requirements since jund charm is super-restrictive. i agree that restrictive costs can be an asset up to a point, but BRG is ludicrously far past that. like sprouting thrinax is a terrific card but i dunno if he makes it -- ditto rhox war monk. i guess with the charm, i just like the instant speed and other modes. the graveyard blowout can be fantastic. it's probably not worth it, though, and i should cut it. anyway w/r/t verdict: it's mainly the uncounterable thing that i hate.

agreed 5 is a great cost for wraths and w-rath's (the tempest one).

tonight i discovered rain of daggers. what do yall think!?!?
 
Lets get daggerin. How fast are the aggressive decks in your cubagoodingjr? I worry six mana may not be in time.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
im gonna put rain of daggerz in my cube and not tell anyone

I like this. Designs should be strong enough to speak for themselves. If players can't figure out what strategies are available by looking at the packs then I'm probably doing something wrong as a designer. "If your theme isn't at common..."

Not that this has a whole lot to do with slotting in a single card, but as a general rule I don't tell my players much, if anything, about the changes.
 

CML

Contributor
i'm happy to run them by them -- after all, my cube is only as good as the people who come over and draft it -- but nobody is as into me designing my cube as myself, so i end up ambushing them with a different cast of fatties or a brilliant or terrible design choice.

rain of daggers on the other hand just sounds awesome
 
Since I refuse to pay for a card like Damnation, I stuck Life's Finale in my cube as a black wrath replacement. It's actually been surprisingly good in our slower environment. Yanking their best three creatures out of their deck lategame can leave them without a meaningful win condition. If you're playing reanimator, it functions as a reverse Buried Alive stapled to a wrath.

I presume I'm the only one playing this card, of course.
 
Yeah Life's Finale is a bomb in limited. I guess not in the cubes where a 6 mana wrath is too slow, but it's rare that a deck has more than three creatures that are good at coming back from behind, and you're probably going to be ahead right after you wrath, so it actually functionally wins a large number of games. It's also a sweeper that's good against control, which is somewhat unusual.
 

CML

Contributor
Target opponent's on Finale gets my knickers in a knot. damnation feels just right awwwwwwww yeah a black wrath.
 
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