General Modifying Mana Costs - enabling previously unviable archetypes

LordOfTexas

LordOfTexas

Hey all,

I haven't posted here much, but I really enjoy reading everyone's opinions on various cube topics :) Thought I'd share some musings I've had lately.

Background (tl;dr below)
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Quick background on my cube: 450 cards, on the powerful side. No moxen/recall/lotus, but StP, JtMS, Jitte, etc. are all in - my playgroup enjoys the "play with broken, interesting stuff from magic's past" aspect of the cube, and we don't cube often enough for the relative brokenness of these cards to become stale. I break singleton to run 20 fetches and a few other typical choices.

Link: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/10787

The well-documented issue with high-power cubes is that many interesting cards and archetypes just can't hack it in terms of efficiency. I don't want that to be a limit on where I go with the cube - the last thing I want is to be one of those cube designers that treats the environment like a constructed deck, only adding newly released cards if they fit the power-max philosophy.

So where do I turn? Fully custom cards are not where I want to go for various reasons. My idea is to take interesting cards from Magic's past and modify their mana cost to make them viable in a high-power cube environment. Why mana cost and not, say, modifying power/toughness or ability text?
1) It puts a restriction on the thought exercise to avoid analysis paralysis.
2) Players familiar with the modified cards only have to remember the modified mana cost when the card is in their hand - so once it's on the battlefield or resolves, it's the exact same card they are familiar with. Cube is complex enough and I don't want to overwhelm my players.

My first target of this philosophy is green aggro. My players love trying to jam G/x beatdown, but without strong support from another color, it's just not really there currently due to the lack of enough quality 1 and 2 drops. (I'm not referring to mana elf midrange, which can overlap with this, but I don't want every green deck that attacks to necessarily be elf-centric.) In addition, the cards that do support the archetype as printed tend to be CC or CCC, which I try to avoid in my cube (there are exceptions.) There are some cards I don't include right now that I could - Experiment One, Nacatl, etc. - but on their own I don't think they are enough.
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tl;dr--- My idea is to take interesting cards from Magic's past and modify their mana cost to make them viable in a high-power cube environment. My first target of this philosophy is green aggro.

So, I'm curious if you guys think this can work, and if so, what some good candidates for "powering up" green beatdown strategies. The qualities in a card I'm looking for are:

1) Feels uniquely green, not just a color-shifted version of some generic good aggro card
2) Synergistic in and out of color
3) Leads to a variety of interesting gamestates (e.g. not looking for feast-or-famine cards)
4) Powerful enough to hold up in a high-power cube environment.

After a lot of Gatherer searches, here's my first few stabs at cards that might make the cut:

G:
Vinelasher Kudzu (might be too strong with double fetches, but I love the simple intra-color synergy)
Joiner Adept (definitely not too strong, and has a unique effect that can assist with awkward curve-outs, even in mono-g if you're packing colorless utility lands)

1G:
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard Love the build-around-me effect, and at 1G he's not an embarrassing beater if that's what your draw asks for.
Renegade Krassis Rewards you for playing big guys and has random synergy across the cube. Definitely on the high-power side.

Looking forward to your ideas for revamping green aggro within these constraints :)
 
B

blacksmithy

It's not green, but Seismic Assault and Geralf's Messenger costed at 2R and 2B would be great cube cards.

On topic: Strangleroot Geist at 1G; yasova Dragonclaw as-is; masked admirers at 2G; kalonian hydra as-is; break singleton on experiment one; moldervine cloak at 1G; wolfir avenger at 2G. Those kinda vary in power level but a mana makes a huge difference.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Back on topic: I think green's greatest weakness in the aggro department is its lack of good, for the aggro plan at least, one drops and a reliable way to push damage through. Red has direct damage, white has protection and evasion, green has... pump?

I think all of these 2/1's are candidates to be reduced to a casting cost of {G}.



If we're looking at pump, clearly a lot of options aren't good enough at the moment for a powerful cube. Maybe we can push some of the pump to {G} (or even {G/P}?) as well?

 
LordOfTexas

LordOfTexas

Onderzeeboot said:
Back on topic: I think green's greatest weakness in the aggro department is its lack of good, for the aggro plan at least, one drops and a reliable way to push damage through. Red has direct damage, white has protection and evasion, green has... pump?

I think all of these 2/1's are candidates to be reduced to a casting cost of {G}.
Click to expand...

Great post. I'm especially high on Viridian Emissary as a one-drop - he really makes your opponent think about trading or pointing a removal spell in his direction. Since green aggro will have a side-dish of midrange creatures a lot of the time, the land from Emissary can really make a difference in curving out.

If we're looking at pump, clearly a lot of options aren't good enough at the moment for a powerful cube. Maybe we can push some of the pump to {G} (or even {G/P}?) as well?
Click to expand...

Including pump is definitely a goal of mine - combat tricks and pump are a glaring omission in green cube sections, whereas "normal" Magic sees quite a bit of it.

I think there are a few options that might be good enough as printed presuming green beatdown is supported: Groundswell (having double fetches helps), Vines of the Vastwood, Berserk,Setessan Tactics.

Another way to squeeze combat tricks in might be to use trick-on-a-stick effects - e.g. Briarhorn at 2G might be good enough, and he's great with morbid/death trigger strategies as well.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Onderzeeboot said:
Back on topic: I think green's greatest weakness in the aggro department is its lack of good, for the aggro plan at least, one drops and a reliable way to push damage through. Red has direct damage, white has protection and evasion, green has... pump?

I think all of these 2/1's are candidates to be reduced to a casting cost of {G}.



If we're looking at pump, clearly a lot of options aren't good enough at the moment for a powerful cube. Maybe we can push some of the pump to {G} (or even {G/P}?) as well?

Click to expand...

Pfft on topic :p
I mean, having done this shit myself, it will help. You'll never have anyone trying to build a mono green aggro deck because that's just not a good idea in magic rules, as well as drafting rules. Basically no matter what your second color would be, it'll help immensely by giving you the ability to interact with your opponent at all, which it's next to impossible for green to do.

Of the creatures you've mentioned, be careful. Those are some really powerful 1 drops you're printing :p
I've tried putting {W} for a conditional 2/2 flying (too strong), and dryad sophisticate is MILES better than that.
Grappler Spider would be cute (See Dragon Hunter), Nantuko Tracer would be a nice little Mardu Woe-Reaper expy, and Wandering Wolf acts like a perfectly good heroic anchor without being horrible otherwise, but the rest are a bit much.

Quirion Sentinel would be burning-tree emissary except with an above average body rather than a middling one, so that's likely too good.
Highland Game, and Viridian Emissary all seem like synergy where you don't really need it, since your average sacrifice deck doesn't want those triggers, and pod doesn't want savannah lions, preferring more mid-range threats.
Tajaru Preserver is just overkill. The 1 drop you'd be sacrificing to any edicts played by your opponent that would make them horrible now makes them literally useless. Just cut the edicts :p
Blurred Mongoose is probably okay, but I've never found shroud the best solution for the same reason I've never found hexproof to be the best solution: All this card does is reduce the decisions people can make. It's probably fair since they can still block it pretty easily, and it's not like you can swing into a 1/3 and threaten giant growth.

Now, in terms of the pump spells, notice how removal has gotten a lot worse in regular limited lately?


85.jpg
65.jpg

Notice that change in rarity...

This is being done (At least in part) to make combat tricks better. A few things need to happen to make any combat trick worth playing (Even if it's like {G}, instant, +6/+6)

A) Control decks have to rely (at least partially) on blocking. If your cube's control decks are the wrath of god, end of turn fact or fiction type decks, all giant growth is going to be against them is lava spike that you can't cast some of the time. Tighten up on the removal, because no aggro deck is usually winning against 22 doom blades and a single copy of Sphinx of Jwar isle, and that is in no way the fault of the sphinx.

B) The combat tricks have to be more efficient than the straight removal. Why would you Giant Growth if for the same mana you get swords to plowshares? Hell it's still probably not worth the trade down if you have to cast dark banishing, you're going to want some really limited only type cards, like chill to the bone type stuff, or maybe even further. Making all the removal a sorcery can help as well, and presents what I'd call interesting and Lucas would call frustrating dynamic to control decks.

C) The combat tricks have to help you accomplish something you couldn't do with just straight removal. You know where Giant Growth shines? When you're playing red and you're up against like a 5/5. So you could spend two of your insane early game cards (which you probably kept around for someone like this) and be blown out by a single counterspell, or you could swing with the team, and Sure Strike whatever bear is about to get pounded. Maybe you're on a board where you've got a few 2/2s, and your opponent has a 2/4 that's giving you trouble, but then you draw Ghor-Clan Rampager. BAM! Suddenly you're in business, and swinging with a grin on your face.

Now that being said, I like where you're starting. But I think pump spells and generically better dudes aren't really the way to go with making green aggro great. You need a theme, or at least some raw power to draw people in, like opening the green equivalent of sulfuric vortex.

The most effective cards I've found for making my green mages attack are:



No seriously though, Experiment one shapes the minds of your drafters. It's amazing.
Curse of Predation is the truth as well, that card is REALLY powerful if you can afford to attack at all (Which is not always).
In fact, it's so powerful I've had to nerf it:
STaVjj0.jpg

This card is still bonkers by the way. Animate my mutavault, swing with fauna shaman, throw the counters on the manland for some extra wrath insurance.

Other fun fellas:
phIv6BR.jpg

I mean this still has all the problems prey upon does, but feels more than fair alongside doom blade and at least isn't even more conditional than average.
I don't like Epic Confrontation because while it's perfectly serviceable as what green mages are forced to call removal, it doesn't actually make up for being so conditional in adding a decent amount of damage once their blocker has been smashed, where as a single extra point of power suddenly puts it on the map.

sZopPOt.jpg

Green 3s still leave something to be desired in the not being grey ogre front, so I borrowed one from white

zYU1OMi.jpg

This guy is the truth as well. It takes a little getting used to (Evolve checks for greater p/t when the creature enters and rechecks when the trigger resolves, so no matter how you stack your triggers, you won't get anything out of playing a 2/2 with this guy in play) but once your drafters understand that simple fact, he's still a sweet creature that can throw counters on evasive dudes or just get huge and swing, or both! Lots of interesting sequencing plays with this guy, easily the most disappointed I've been when people tell me they don't like customs, since this card is never ever ever being printed by wizards :p

2M378wg.jpg

More thanks to Lucas, but this card is grafted wargear levels of good, and just silently is sweet with your entire green section:



Hell it's even good with experiment two above!

DE8Pmc8.jpg

Ignore the last mode, it doesn't need it. Maybe like lay of the land?
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Do note that Briarhorn at {2}{G} is also a frightening good blocker against aggro!

Shroud is actually a nice mechanic in green that red, white and black (I forgot recursive aggro in my previous post) do not have access too. It might be worth exploring, although you'ld need mass pump to boost creatures with shroud. If hexproof doesn't completely turn your group off like it does me (ick, I hate all upside uninteractive mechanics, i.e. hexproof and permanent protection) you could also consider that, but Bogles is not a well-liked opponent's deck in modern for a reason. Anyway, I already mentioned Blurred Mongoose in my previous post, but there's also these, which would be playable at various costs and could all be mono green.



Mass pump is, like I said, also one of green's areas of expertise. You could easily change the cost of some of these effects, or colorshift some white or red cards. Some of these are even good enough as is (Garruk, Overrun).

 
Tzenmoroth

Tzenmoroth

I kind of want Mass Polymorph/Synthetic Destiny at a mana cost that lets me build a deck with some big midrange fatties and some noncreature token producers. Idk, I think its a cool combo because its "two cards" (Mass Polymorph + Lingering Souls) where one of those cards is 1 of many but a card in a second color and there's even deckbuilding restrictions that come with it that sway your picks, much like Upheaval but, ya know, more fair. I would probably try 4U Mass Polymorph, like 3U for a "symmetric" edition.

Lightning Rift without having to pay {1} and Astral Slide for {1}{W}, Spirit Cairn without having to pay {1}, Telekinetic Bonds without the tax for like {2}{U} , etc. I'm actually trying to put a cycling/discard trigger theme into a custom cube right now. Its something that I like because it plays in a unique way while playing nice with other themes. "Whenever you discard" triggers can play well with things like group discard, wheels, looters, etc.

Skybind at like {1}{W}{W}, Zur the Enchanter with haste. : )

Earth Surge at {2}{G}, Oracle of Mul Daya at {1}{G}{G} (or {G} {G} and sacrifice a land if we're living life on the Edge). I want to draft LANDS.
 
LordOfTexas

LordOfTexas

Chris Taylor said:
[Points about pump and the general cube environment]
Click to expand...

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, and I'm aware of the changes in limited that have occurred in the last half-decade or so to power-down removal. It's a philosophy I've strongly considered for my cube as well.

However, I want to limit the scope of this exercise to strictly focusing on what changes can be made to green itself - 1) because I want to limit ripple effects 2) I'm lazy and I want this to be fun exercise, not a complete cube overhaul :p

Now that being said, I like where you're starting. But I think pump spells and generically better dudes aren't really the way to go with making green aggro great. You need a theme, or at least some raw power to draw people in, like opening the green equivalent of sulfuric vortex.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm looking for. The card that you see p1p1 and makes you want to build a green aggro deck - and not just an X/green aggro deck (which is how I see cards like Curse of Predation - there's nothing green about it other than the flavor, and if I p1p1 Curse of Predation, I'm actually looking for white cards more than anything in the next pack.)

The more green aggro can differentiate itself from how white, red, or black aggro operates, the more interested I am in actually supporting it. (E.g. caring about lands or the size of your creatures is strongly green)
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
LordOfTexas said:
This is exactly what I'm looking for. The card that you see p1p1 and makes you want to build a green aggro deck - and not just an X/green aggro deck (which is how I see cards like Curse of Predation - there's nothing green about it other than the flavor, and if I p1p1 Curse of Predation, I'm actually looking for white cards more than anything in the next pack.)

The more green aggro can differentiate itself from how white, red, or black aggro operates, the more interested I am in actually supporting it. (E.g. caring about lands or the size of your creatures is strongly green)
Click to expand...

Well then can I heartily recommend Bestial Mask!
Like I said in its description, there's no card I think amazes me more each time I drafted. (Last time it was cloudfin raptor. Before that Endless One. One of the first? FENCING ACE!)

There was also a custom card in one of our theads a while back about a similar card:
{2}{G}
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature is a 4/4 trample and loses all abilities
When ~ dies, return it to it's owners hand.

This card also acts as a janky removal spell, but its got less insane interactions with keyword creatures. That being said, it's a card I could see running 2-3 of, and that's really rare for a custom card.

Goyf and Scavenging Ooze also put me in green aggro most of the time, with the option to audible into something more midrangey, and I have a feeling sylvan advocate is probably similar but with the archetypes reversed (I've just only had 1 draft to play it with)

You certainly will need solid green creatures to go with those, but it's really only the 1 drops where green is lacking (Since Experiment one is the only one I'd play over an elvish mystic blind if you told me I was an aggro deck). It's twos are fine, and the threes have even been catching up lately, even if it's still lacking that perfect something.

If I had to choose a theme for green in the dark over red/white/black etc aggro, it'd be late game utility. Solid creatures early, but with a growth option. Experiment one already feeds into this thought process, and Goyf does too (He just grows so damn easily you don't notice :p)

Maybe something like this guy:


Most of the level up creatures you see in cubes aren't worth proliferating, but this guy is and is decent on his own.
 
LordOfTexas

LordOfTexas

Ooh, I love the Beefbreaker. For G he seems about on par with Figure of Destiny, which is about where I want to be. Level-up creatures are just fun on their own so I'll give him some strong consideration.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
You can just run it as a turn two aggro deck, rather than as a turn 1 deck. That seems to work best with its scaling utility, and the mana dorks feed perfectly into that approach.

Also,

 
Ferritovore

Ferritovore

FlowerSunRain said:
Ainok Bond-Kin: Cost changed to W, outlast increased to 4W
Savannah Lion: Added "Whenever you gain life, scry 1"
Tragic Poet: Removed tap symbol from ability activation
Observant Alseid: Cost changed to 1W, Bestow cost changed to 3W
Cage of Hands: Cost Changed to 1W
Aegis of the Gods: Cost Changed to W

Drifter il-Dal: Upkeep cost changed to “echo”
Dandan: Removed Islandhome.
Flying Men: Added Prowess
Flitterstep Eidolon: Cost changed to U

Brood of Cockroaches: Cost changed to B
Cavern Lampad: Cost changed to BB, bestow changed to 4B.
Nantuko Husk: Cost changed to 1B
Kalatastria Highborn: Text changed to "or another human you control"
Thoughtrender Lamaia: Cost changed to 2BB, power and toughness changed to 2/2.
Pharika's Cure: Damage and life changed to 3.

etc
Click to expand...
 
Tzenmoroth

Tzenmoroth

https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/4r8ota/modified_the_cmc_of_some_cards_for_my_legacycube/

https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/4uu6zo/modified_the_cmc_on_more_cards_for_my_legacycube/

This has me thinking about a custom mana cost cube... :rolleyes: Looking for ideas of cards that people don't run but would if the cmc was lower.

Some ideas I had:

Plague of Vermin at {4}{B}?
Galvanoth at {1}{R}{R}?
Tornado at {1}{G}, Herald of Leshrac at {3}{B}, Eon Hub at {2}, whatever other upkeep shenanigans exit.
Thunderblade Charge and Cackling Flames at {1}{R}
Centaur Omenreader at {2}{G}
Spirits from Kamigawa at way less mana if I want soulshift loops to be an archetype.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Tzenmoroth said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/4r8ota/modified_the_cmc_of_some_cards_for_my_legacycube/

https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/4uu6zo/modified_the_cmc_on_more_cards_for_my_legacycube/

This has me thinking about a custom mana cost cube... :rolleyes: Looking for ideas of cards that people don't run but would if the cmc was lower.

Some ideas I had:

Plague of Vermin at {4}{B}?
Galvanoth at {1}{R}{R}?
Tornado at {1}{G}, Herald of Leshrac at {3}{B}, Eon Hub at {2}, whatever other upkeep shenanigans exit.
Thunderblade Charge and Cackling Flames at {1}{R}
Centaur Omenreader at {2}{G}
Spirits from Kamigawa at way less mana if I want soulshift loops to be an archetype.
Click to expand...

I made a half-assed attempt at a cube that kinda builds on this principle, but more strict. May I present you my unfinished Helm of Awakening cube!
 
Tzenmoroth

Tzenmoroth



Any of these at {1} less mana suddenly return themselves to your hand on death, effectively returning themselves to your hand for various effects. Maybe that makes them a wee bit too potent especially in long games, but I really want to see how these play out.
 
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