General On clones

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

We talked a while ago, back in the combo tokens thread, about how you could use clones to help create deck consistency. Back then, we used then as an example with blood artist as part of aggro combo, but they work with anything where multiple creatures contribute to a win condition, with a sort of combo feel, even if it doesn't burn you out in one turn. For example:



This is of course ignoring the times where you just want to copy shriekmaw and other 'utility' creatures, or giant or difficult to deal with threats.

Now this doesn't account for the need to draw your combo creatures in the first place, and you'll need to decide to what extent and how you support 'tutors'. (I like a carefully curated selection across most colours.)

And this doesn't just apply to creatures, as you have cards that can copy other permanent types:



But there's less of them, but in the right cube they can let you do cool things, like copy trial of zeal and then return it to your hand when you play a cartouche, to copy again or play something else.

Should we be playing more clones? How many do you play? There will be a cap on the number you might play, partly because you need a number of proactive cards (rather than the reactiveness of clones) but also for probably two other reasons:

-Predominance of a lot of them costing four. I mean, come on, spread the love out a bit across the man costs. Once you've got the 'best' clone for your cube, you want to spend your other four drop slots on other cool things.
-The feel bad effect of copying your opponents threat. It can be kind of frustrating for the Jonny player who has made his big dumb green creature, which you the get for less effort and (usually) less mana cost. There are a couple of clones which only target your own creatures, which can get around this, but they're limited in number across a limited number of effects (cackling counterpart).

Now, this aside, I think it might be useful to try to up the number or variety to see if there is an interesting sweet spot and what effect it has on your cube and game play.

Which are you playing and have they supported any particularly cool decks?

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Bonus content!

There's a fair few clones which make token copies:



So as well as copying, you can look to the other cool things you can do with tokens:



Amongst others. Could be an interesting azorius mid range theme thing there which overlaps with whites traditional go wide token strategy.

 

[sigh]

I rum

Common graveyard theme for mine. I really enjoy giving blue that reanimator angle. Neat thing about clones is that they are great synergies with "power matters"

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The only problem with clones is that they tend to be generally good cards, so they don't always end up getting to the synergy player.

That being said, rite, followed footsteps, and prog mimic are all cards that people enjoy playing. Maybe followed footsteps is the card I should be looking at, since its clunky enough to be a lower pick, and the ceiling requires synergy to reach.

 

[Fulcrum]

Here's one that I'm interested in testing. I found it while scouring through some of the older sets. I like that it plays well with any token synergies floating around and I like that it only costs two mana. The upkeep cost is interesting and slightly concerning, because it limits your development in the early game but becomes less of an issue as the game goes on. It's also obviously weak to bounce spells.



I think of the listed clones, I like Vizier of the Many Faces and Phyrexian Metamorph the most. Cackling Counterpart seems really interesting too but I have no experience with it.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

The cost on dance of many is pretty restrictive, but the bounce effect works both ways (as with all clones I guess). The other thing that it has going for it is potential enchantment synergies though.

The idea of making clone effects a bit less accessible is interesting, moving them away from 'good stuff' picks. Ravebornmuse is playing with followed footsteps at the moment. Higher risk, higher reward? Might be worth a shot.

If you're looking for things that just target you, you could have a package of



I don't normally consider body double and back from the brink as clones, more reanimation effects.

There's also something interesting about having real risk of losing key pieces through excite, like on back from the brink. There's also



Other honourable mentions



Dom has referenced mirrorweave a couple of times. Is it something that is cool and leads to good stories or just oops I win?

Anyone have experience with mirage mirror?

 

[Fulcrum]

This dude scales with the board with no extra input which seems super sweet.



Ninja buds



This guy benefits a lot if you have tribal stuff going on



"Normal" Eldrazi Mimic



For morph stuff

 

[sigh]

Mirage Mirror is a really cool card. Only experienced it in EDH, but all around a very flexible cloning effect. The fact that in a pinch it can be unknown shores is really neat. I think it's a little better in multiplayer where you are under less time pressure and have a wider array of potential targets.

Probably just misses for me, but could definitely see testing it in place of a variety of artifacts I'm currently running.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Mirage Mirror is a really cool card. Only experienced it in EDH, but all around a very flexible cloning effect. The fact that in a pinch it can be unknown shores is really neat. I think it's a little better in multiplayer where you are under less time pressure and have a wider array of potential targets.

Probably just misses for me, but could definitely see testing it in place of a variety of artifacts I'm currently running.

I guess it's quite good at copying bouncelands too.

 

[sigh]

It is pretty good at that, but if you aren't copying something like Nykthos or Coffers, it does feel a little less impressive. I guess copying lands and enchantments is a pretty unique aspect of Mirror.

Also one of those unfortunate situations where it is simply supplanted by phyrexian metamorph and/or clever impersonator in a large assortment of formats.

Edit: on that note, not necessarily good enough for main drafts, but a very neat pair of lands:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

IT'S A TRAP!



I mentioned this card in the generic p1p1 thread. It's just such a safe an powerful pick, for any deck, I believe this is possibly the worst clone effect you can run, unless you run a high powered cube with more generic powerful colorless picks (I'm talking Wurmcoil Engine and friends).

 

[Dom Harvey]

It's safe but that isn't automatically bad. It can only be as good as the other things going on, and it leads to some really intricate and memorable games.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

These ones look interesting, mostly because they take the effect out of blue, and make it more universal



I might experiment with mirage mirror, now that GPG has been taken out.

Mirrorpool looks like memes, and its especially nice that you can map for it, letting you create some further rough consistancy.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

These ones look interesting, mostly because they take the effect out of blue, and make it more universal



I might experiment with mirage mirror, now that GPG has been taken out.

Mirrorpool looks like memes, and its especially nice that you can map for it, letting you create some further rough consistancy.

Re taking things out of blue, I don't know how we've got this far without mentioning



Please let us know how you get on with mirage mirror. I'd be really interested to see how it turns out.

IT'S A TRAP!

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I mentioned this card in the generic p1p1 thread. It's just such a safe an powerful pick, for any deck, I believe this is possibly the worst clone effect you can run, unless you run a high powered cube with more generic powerful colorless picks (I'm talking Wurmcoil Engine and friends).

Can we explore this a bit please? So are we saying that because it's colourless people are more likely to take it because it's always going to make the deck and is generally powerful? If so

* why is that so bad? In retail limited I can understand that as the quality is usually very broad and you get more information from the passed booster. But in cube the quality level is generally much flatter and you miss out on the other goodies in pack one.
* if you have a lower power level then your cube can push for synergy rather than power matters, reducing the impact of a cheapish colourless clone.

I'm sure I'm missing more but would like to understand your views on this.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm sure I'm missing more but would like to understand your views on this.

I had it in my cube for a long time, and Metamorph, while very good, isn't actually too problematic in play, the problem I have with it is that it doesn't add any tension to the draft. You see this p1p1, you pick it and you know it's going to make your deck, and you know it's going to be good, and and you're not even committing to a color. Ideally I want my players to make choices during a draft, to agonize over the very first pick and decide which direction they want to take the draft in. Metamorph is, to me, too noncommittal a pick for how good it is. I hope that made sense?

 

[Aston]

On the other hand, it is useful to have first pickable cards that don't tunnel you into a specific archetype straight away. Being able to stay open and see what's flowing is good drafting and having cards that allow that is important.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Being able to stay open and see what's flowing is good drafting

I agree!

and having cards that allow that is important.

Is it though? Honest question, because I don't think it is.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Is it though? Honest question, because I don't think it is.

I think it probably is. Can't explain why yet, though.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I should probably rephrase that question, because yes, I do think there should be cards that don't tunnel you into an archetype. What I should have asked instead is, why do those cards have to be colorless bombs? (And yes, I do consider Metamorph a bomb.)

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I should probably rephrase that question, because yes, I do think there should be cards that don't tunnel you into an archetype. What I should have asked instead is, why do those cards have to be colorless bombs? (And yes, I do consider Metamorph a bomb.)

As we're talking about clones, why is it you consider it a bomb?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

As we're talking about clones, why is it you consider it a bomb?

Because clone effects in general are already good, especially in a format with a lot of really good creatures, and this one is both more flexible than a regular clone and cheaper. Also, it's colorless, so it doesn't commit you to a color.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Not committing you to a colour is a draft effect and doesn't necessarily affect bomb status I would say. So that takes you to

* format dependent on the power level of your creatures. I think this is a real consideration especially when combined with the cost
* cost. This is big too. The analogy for me is with reanimation spells. Four and above is okay, cheaper isn't. But clones are more reactive and unless your opponent is cheating things into play then anything you are copying on turn three should be as reasonable as your format allows.
* colourless. As well as the negative drafting impact, the bonus of this is that it allows all colours access to clones. I think this is generally a good thing and supports creative decking and interesting decks.
* flexible. Presume you mean because it can copy artifacts too? Again for me it supports interesting decks.

Writing that out does bring me down on the side of it being a generically powerful card. I'm interested in what happens in a lower powered format but I can understand choosing other clones to err on the side of caution.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Aston]

I'd define bombs as cards that can win you the game on their own, and Metamorph by definition can't do that.

I'm not arguing it's not very good, nor that it's not a powerful first pick, but its power comes from its flexibility and flexibility is something I feel is very important in cube cards.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'd define bombs as cards that can win you the game on their own, and Metamorph by definition can't do that.

I'm not arguing it's not very good, nor that it's not a powerful first pick, but its power comes from its flexibility and flexibility is something I feel is very important in cube cards.

That's fair, I'd define it more along the lines of the mtg wiki:

A bomb is a card, generally used in conjunction with Limited play, that always makes a large card impact on a game in which it is played. Such cards are usually hard to defend against in a limited-card pool setting. Sometimes, bombs are broken, but not always.

Not committing you to a colour is a draft effect and doesn't necessarily affect bomb status I would say. So that takes you to

* format dependent on the power level of your creatures. I think this is a real consideration especially when combined with the cost
* cost. This is big too. The analogy for me is with reanimation spells. Four and above is okay, cheaper isn't. But clones are more reactive and unless your opponent is cheating things into play then anything you are copying on turn three should be as reasonable as your format allows.
* colourless. As well as the negative drafting impact, the bonus of this is that it allows all colours access to clones. I think this is generally a good thing and supports creative decking and interesting decks.
* flexible. Presume you mean because it can copy artifacts too? Again for me it supports interesting decks.

Writing that out does bring me down on the side of it being a generically powerful card. I'm interested in what happens in a lower powered format but I can understand choosing other clones to err on the side of caution.

Interesting discussion.

For me not committing to a color does affect bomb status. For example...



Wurmcoil Engine is the epitome of bombiness. Now, the black-shifted version is still a bomb, but I would not rate it as high as Wurmcoil Engine. P1p1 I would pick either one obviously, but p3p1? If I'm not in black, I'm not switching to the color, whereas I would slam dunk og Wurmcoil Engine.

The impact of Metamorph's lower casting costs extends to well beyond the third turn. You are not usually using a clone on that turn anyway. Instead, say your opponent manages to land a big threat, say a Primeval Titan on turn 5 (thanks to some ramp). With regular clone effects you could copy it and pass the turn, they get to tangle, or your opponent removes your copy, and opponent is up two lands at minimum. With Metamorph you actually have more options to make sequence better plays. In my cube you could go Phyerexian Metamorph into Ultimate Price to get way ahead. Three mana vs four mana makes a lot of difference for casting multiple spells in a turn I think.

Metamorph being effectively colorless means you can indeed spread the clone effect to other colors. While this can lead to interesting games, the same could be said about colorless counterspells, for example. I know I've taken a rather liberal stance on the matter quite recently, but I still believe the color pie is important, and cloning creatures is so core to the blue identity, that I actually dislike it being available to all colors. Now, cloning artifacts feels less of a color pie break, because the original is already colorless, but we can use Sculpting Steel or Cogwork Assembler if that is something we want in our environment.

I do agree it's an interesting discussion, and I realize I'm more down on the card than others. People do like playing with Phyrexian Metamorph, I do as well, and that alone could be a legit reason for anyone to include it, but for me there's not enough upsides to outweigh the (perceived?) downsides.

 

[Suicufnoc]

First-Pickability != Bomb Status.

Colorless Wurmcoil is a higher pick than Black Wurmcoil, but if you're playing Black, power level is the same (dependent on environment, fixing, amt of colorless ramp, I guess). Equal Bomb Status. If it cost BBBBBB, that would be different.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I have to disagree. Colorless Wurmcoil Engine is, in my eyes, a bigger bomb because it adds out of color abilities to colors not normally having access to its abilities, without making a color commitment. That means I can drift into green ramp after picking up a colorless Wurcoil without locking in my second color. It means I can draft blue and have a heavy hitter and life gain source without locking in my second color. It means I can use the artifact synergies present in red (there's also, again, the lifelink part) without locking in my second color.

Anyway, even if we can't agree on what constitutes a bomb, my point was that I prefer colorless card that either pull you into a certain direction, or are cogs that smooth out decks without being the main attraction. I don't much care for general purpose, high value colorless cards that go into any deck regardless of what you end up drafting. For me Phyrexian Metamorph falls into that category.