General Poll: Shroud & Hexproof
- Thread starter Velrun
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
How should we know? I do know that I hate hexproof on creatures, but think it's great on temporary effects. Shroud I like a lot better.
Neither. They're not getting rid of Hexproof because it's so useful for combat tricks like Dive Down and Ranger's Guile. They're just adding Ward as a means to print creatures that are harder to remove with target removal without being impossible like with Hexproof.
I'm not sure we'll see new Shroud cards ever again, but that's only because Hexproof replaced Shroud. The last time they printed a new card with Shroud was in 2011 with Neurok Commando. A couple months later in Magic 2012 (or the original Commander decks if you want to count Champion's Helm), they introduced Hexproof.
So no, we haven't seen the last of Hexproof because it is so useful. It just doesn't play as well as taxing effects like Ward on permanents. As for Shroud, we might see some more cards with that mechanic in Commander or Horizons products, but there probably isn't a reason for it as Hexproof does the same job better.
I'm not sure we'll see new Shroud cards ever again, but that's only because Hexproof replaced Shroud. The last time they printed a new card with Shroud was in 2011 with Neurok Commando. A couple months later in Magic 2012 (or the original Commander decks if you want to count Champion's Helm), they introduced Hexproof.
So no, we haven't seen the last of Hexproof because it is so useful. It just doesn't play as well as taxing effects like Ward on permanents. As for Shroud, we might see some more cards with that mechanic in Commander or Horizons products, but there probably isn't a reason for it as Hexproof does the same job better.
I would not be surprised to see one more shroud card ever again, as a one-of with a weird design in a commander set. Some kind of effect like Sleeper Agent, juiced up, and with shroud rather than hexproof so that nobody can get rid of it, or whatever.
I would be very surprised to ever see multiples even in a situation like that. Hexproof creatures could come back at some point, maybe, even with Ward existing, but I'd be surprised. Hexproof on instants, obviously, nearly every set (with indestructible filling in the gaps).
I would be very surprised to ever see multiples even in a situation like that. Hexproof creatures could come back at some point, maybe, even with Ward existing, but I'd be surprised. Hexproof on instants, obviously, nearly every set (with indestructible filling in the gaps).
Maro already confirmed that hexproof will stay, and shroud won't come back. I think the former will be used more like protection in that it only shows up on spells as a temporary protection or rarely on a creature. The difference will be that hexproof is big creatures only (anti boggles policy) and protection is probably more likely on smaller or less efficient creatures at least.
100% this
I'm looking forward to more ward, but I liked shroud in small doses. I liked the designs below, and I appreciate the drawback of not being able to target them yourself together with a Ward [infinite]. They led to more meaningful interaction in many cases, because blocking becomes necessary.
I'm looking forward to more ward, but I liked shroud in small doses. I liked the designs below, and I appreciate the drawback of not being able to target them yourself together with a Ward [infinite]. They led to more meaningful interaction in many cases, because blocking becomes necessary.
Same here. Shroud is a pretty interesting keyword in practice to me. I never cared for the Tiger, but the others are sweet. Some others from the annals of time that I like:
Which are all obviously outclassed these days. I have a deep, profoundly irrational love for Gigapede. My earliest EDH deck was just an excuse to kill as many people with the 'pede as I could.
Shroud is way more balanced than hexproof, but they say it's harder to understand. I hope we will see some more shroud creatures in supplementary products: things like Blastoderm or Nimble Mongoose are fun. Hexproof and things like True-Name Nemesis are the death of interaction, I'm really glad they chose to switch and only do hexproof in things like Dive Down from now onwards. I don't think a shroud Dive Down or an hexproof Dive Down are really different, the shroud one is weaker but they are similar. I also like things like "hexproof only while untapped", you can have a protected blocker or an unprotected attacker, but not both.
I think like with all things in magic design, hexproof is simply a tool that is open to the designers for when it is appropriate. Powerful and cheap creatures with hexrpoof, shroud or progenitus levels of protection aren't appropriate for most of magic's lower power level formats and as such I think keeping those types of threats out of Standard and gated behind high rarities for booster draft is a decision that makes sense, but not all of magic's formats are low power level and they deserve to get nice toys to play with too. Magic design unfortunately started with removal spells being completely and utterly cracked the fuck out and as a result we've not really seen them get much better over time. Cheap busted removal like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Fatal Push, Daze, etc are the backbone of most eternal formats and as a result expensive creatures are at a massive disadvantage as the tempo blowout from losing a 3/4/5 mana creature to one of these answer cards can be the kind of mana advantage that singlehandedly wins the game. Cards like True-Name Nemesis, Klothys, God of Destiny and Thrun, the Last Troll can certainly have occasionally frustrating play patterns but they're crucially important tools in giving proactive board focused strategies ways to gain win percentage against decks armed to the teeth with broken spot removal in a way that is very hard to replicate with weaker versions of these effects. This isn't to say that every creature should be designed to be pushed enough to break into these formats, obviously we can't expect every creature to either be a broken 1 or 2 super threatening baneslayer like Death's Shadow and Tarmogoyf, a pushed mulldrifter like Ice-Fang Coatl or a nigh impossible to interact with troll like TNN; but those are basically the only classes of creatures that see play in fair decks in older formats so if wotc wants to on occasion fuck up and print something that breaks with these limitations, I'm all for it, especially in direct to eternal product like Modern Horizons and commander precons.