General Self-Recursive Threats

I started my cube off in 2012, and Dark Ascension was the new hotness. Having been influenced by Cube content on Channel Fireball that may be familiar to a few of you, Gravecrawler was one of a handful of cards I broke singleton for, as it emphasized a combination of themes that I was eager for -- the 'Crawler made recursive graveyard decks shine, it was a favorite card to sacrifice, it helped me integrate aggro into black (which was somewhat supported in all five colors at the time, a silly approach but an approach all the same) -- it was the kind of card I played Cube to see shine. Since then we've gotten quite a few of these recursive black creatures, but even when my cube was new, I did my best to fill out a strong lineup:



You see, I love just dumping cards into my graveyard. I love milling myself and having a second hand available, I love being able to recast my creatures and get double value off of Looting effects.

So I went deep. In the "wild years" of my cube, I experimented a lot.



Some, like Bone Dragon, just didn't quite cut it, having too big of a cost to pay to keep up with a fairmax environment. Cards like Boneyard Scourge relied too much on synergies that weren't supported enough in cube and timings that were nearly impossible to match perfectly with open mana, even if the front side was reasonable on its face. Vengevine has managed to stick around in my cube since I was able to obtain my first copy, but has never been the all-star I'd have hoped.

But my favorite experiments, and the ones I was saddest to cut one-by-one, were all the cards that ended up being much better if they started the game in your graveyard. These cards were wonderful off of a Faithless Looting, but if you had to hardcast them, you felt pretty dumb. Even if they weren't my preferred flavor of pet card, no one would sensibly pick them when confronted with a Grave Titan, and to better meet the expectations of my drafters and the needs of my cube, they've all since been removed:



I went deep. In all honesty, as one of my all-time favorite cards, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is currently once again in my cube list for testing, even though it's incredibly doubtful he'll stay in for long this time around. I hope to return at least one Knight of the Reliquary from the graveyard while he's in, though!

In the years since, we've had a wealth of powerful aggressive one-drops in black that have been able to recur from the graveyard that have become staples in cubes of all styles, like:



And even the higher CMCs have found a great, powerful cards that are happy to sit in your yard, eagerly waiting for their moment to shine:


Thanks @sigh for the reminders on the last three here!

This last year or so has been particularly good for these kinds of effects, but I also don't want to ignore the creatures that can only be recurred a single time from the graveyard, as they're incredibly important to my list as well. The likes of:


I don't currently run Champion of Wits, Angel of Sanctions, or Timeless Witness but I am looking into them, and I've recently cut the sadly unpopular Glyph Keeper.

Which self-recursive creatures do you run in cube? Do you run extra exile effects / graveyard hate to counter them? What are your favorite synergies with these types of creatures?
 
Last edited:
You covered almost every card I currently run, but there are a couple that you didn't touch on


Blue does have some good options if you are pretty deep in the GY themes
 
Definitely just missed Skyclave Shade, Phoenix of Ash, and Master of Death I had specifically thought about them but they missed the post, they both definitely need to be listed here.

The God-Eternals are recursive but not from the graveyard, which means that they can only be recurred if they've been cast once already. What I've found for recursive cards to last in my cube is that they need:

1. Strong stats at their MV before factoring in recursion.
2. The ability to be recurred without having cast them first, to maximize looting/self-mill.
3. A reasonable and common trigger for recursion (attacking, mana cost, land ETB, etc.).

Without all three of those, recursive threats just aren't that threatening.

Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar has long been of interest to me -- considering how well I did with it at GP Vegas, I should really consider it more! It's a powerful card while being fair, even if its recursive part is too far on the "fair" side for my preferences.

Skaab Ruinator is another card I've experimented with, and would run with a smaller cube. It's too narrow to make sense in my 720 list, especially when self-mill cards only have so many reasonable cards for inclusion at fairmax and fairmax adjacent power levels.

Vizier of Many Faces was a favorite card of mine until I realized no one else was drafting it -- not enough people knew what "Embalm" meant, and there's no reminder text. It's not a straightforward mechanic, even if the card does guide you along to what it means if you have played with it before, it's still too easy to get mixed up with Eternalize.
 

Actually 3 Shadows as a package deal. The Nether Shadow was added as a request by one of the players, but I am not sure it‘ll stay.
 
Last edited:
Do you run extra exile effects / graveyard hate to counter them?
I've been dabbling a bit with these effects to figure out where the sweet spot is since my cube supports reanimator, delirium, and general graveyard value. I've been following a few "rules" in determining what's best:

1. Reduce feel-bads or "gotcha" moments. These are usually caused by a player having narrow graveyard removal at exactly the right time. Purify the Grave would be an extreme example of what to exclude, as your opponent isn't playing it for any reason besides exiling a very specific target in your graveyard.

2. Have the cards be main-deck viable. Drafters typically aren't looking to put Tormod's Crypt in their main deck unless there's running an artifact-centric deck and have limited options. However, something like Scavenging Ooze is a great creature with incidental graveyard hate; it also is a card that satisfies #1 since it's more predictable and can be played around.

3. Make sure your drafters can enjoy their graveyard-centric cards. This is probably the most important of the three since your players came for a good time and have been presented with cards that interact with the graveyard.

To provide a few examples of what I'm currently including:

Endurance - Good stat creature with a significant cost to use its ability for "free."
Sungold Sentinel & Graveyard Trespasser - Newer additions that help keep opponents' graveyards at bay.
Soul-Guide Lantern - Synergizes with artifacts theme and Lurrus, plus helps build toward delirium.

Vengevine has managed to stick around in my cube since I was able to obtain my first copy, but has never been the all-star I'd have hoped.
I was very reluctant to remove Vengevine from my list and still miss 'em :'< I hope the card can stick it out for you and your playgroup!

Very curious how Dennick, Pious Apprentice has done if you've had a chance to test him yet
 
I was very reluctant to remove Vengevine from my list and still miss 'em :'< I hope the card can stick it out for you and your playgroup!

Oh, he's not going anywhere. This is one of the biggest advantages of being at 720 cards. He's never been a top pick but he almost always gets played (even when he shouldn't) and he holds his own with a reasonable floor. I can't complain, that's for sure!

Very curious how Dennick, Pious Apprentice has done if you've had a chance to test him yet

Haven't had a draft since he arrived in the mail, but I've been incredibly impressed with him in MID drafts, and while the power level is wildly different, the play patterns he represents are very much appropriate for my cube and intensely satisfying for the tempo, midrange, or 3-4c goodstuff player.

I've been following a few "rules" in determining what's best

I like your rules and am interested in beefing up my GY hate, so I may try out Soul-Guide Lantern -- seems like it's nearly good enough for folks to draft casually, I just want more things like Scavenging Ooze that are powerful on their own to coax drafters into picking up incidental hate for a strategy I'm quite keen on promoting.

---

Another point, I included Angel of Sanctions back when it first came out but it always felt a little...anemic? Having recently introduced Honored Hydra, I've been enjoying it quite a lot, and feel like maybe I was too harsh on the Angel. Have any of you had any experience with him lately?

 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
My advice to everybody who gives a glance at Skaab Ruinator is to just run it and put it in your deck and see what happens. If you play a high removal-density brand of Magic in your cube, graveyards fill up quick and it's been surprisingly castable in very 'normal' decks.
 
1. Reduce feel-bads or "gotcha" moments. These are usually caused by a player having narrow graveyard removal at exactly the right time. Purify the Grave would be an extreme example of what to exclude, as your opponent isn't playing it for any reason besides exiling a very specific target in your graveyard.

Andy has been saying that in Lucky Paper Radio a number of times, but it really doesn't resonate with me and I wonder if I'm missing something. When my opponent "gets" me with specific graveyard hate, my reaction is "yep, kudos for identifying you needed this card and finding a window to use it. You deserve the edge you got, either because it comes at the expense of having a card that's so much worse in other matchups or because you decided that the metagame makes it worth maindecking." But when Scavenging Ooze "gets" me, my reaction is "oh, I guess this card that's generically good randomly hoses me as well. You'd play it regardless, but got lucky that it's especially good here."
 
My advice to everybody who gives a glance at Skaab Ruinator is to just run it and put it in your deck and see what happens. If you play a high removal-density brand of Magic in your cube, graveyards fill up quick and it's been surprisingly castable in very 'normal' decks.
My experience with it when I ran it in my first cube.
 
My advice to everybody who gives a glance at Skaab Ruinator is to just run it and put it in your deck and see what happens. If you play a high removal-density brand of Magic in your cube, graveyards fill up quick and it's been surprisingly castable in very 'normal' decks.
My experience with it when I ran it in my first cube.

Y'all are enablers of the worst variety and I love it.
 
sorry, i should unpack what i mean.
Skaab compares unfavorably because it is more difficult to cast up front (you have to exile right away and then every time after) and can’t go below 3 mana to cast. considering that a lot of blue sections run low overall creature counts, this can be a tough ask for getting it in play until a lot later in the game. once it’s online, it’s great and has huge upside, but making it to that first cast is where it really gets tough in terms of casting. it’s still on my radar though and will probably be tested at some point, i just think “exile three creatures” is a lot harder to do in a blue deck than “exile five cards”
 
The value of the ruinator isn't in the first cast. It's in the second. Third. Fourth? It's extremely tedious to get rid of unless you happen to have an exile effect at the right time. The exile costs really shouldn't even be the main point of comparison. It's not about getting it out super fast and then riding it. It's about grinding through the 15+ other creatures in the deck to make a super sticky threat throughout the game. Blue decks that are playing it shouldn't be creature light. We are usually playing 2+ colors after all. Sultai self-mill was a favorite home for it in my old cube, but as Jason noted, it even saw (effective) play in a UW tempo deck with no real graveyard focus at all. It's a free discard that slurps up it's fallen comrades to haunt your opponent for the entire game.

It can't be viewed through the lens of fast-paced aggression. It's fundamentally not about that in its design. BUT if you use tricks like CoCo suddenly that can be added to it's function, which makes it really scary.
 
Top