Card/Deck she wants the d(iscard suite)
- Thread starter safra
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I could be persuaded. I would have to hear more accounts from people that have ran it though.
I just think in general that their are only a few puzzle pieces for higher power discard to play with.
I just think in general that their are only a few puzzle pieces for higher power discard to play with.
We've stated this before; designing cube environments that borrow from modern and legacy is hard, because how a single card can be such a huge part of the meta of a constructed format but is only ever a single copy in cube. There's only one brainstorm, there's only on thoughtseize etc.
A modern cube that runs sets of every influential card in the format would be an interesing experiment for someone who's either got the cash or the proxies to pull it off.
On topic, is Mire's Toll anything other than horrid?
On topic, is Mire's Toll anything other than horrid?
Mire's Toll needs three swamps before it really gets castable in most spots. Even in mono black, I don't really care for disruption that starts T3 but in a slower environment where Thoughtseize is blatantly too good, I could kinda see it, esp if you want more hand disruption that doesn't just rip the #1 card in the hand. Most 2 color decks cast it to good effect turn 4-5, if your format is slow enough that you need slower disruption, maybe? Peasant playable if you're running Urborg and shocks for some reason? Nonland-Peasant cubeable?
it's so, so bad. by turn three in a mono-black deck it's as good as Blackmail, a card already at the margins of most of these discussions. In every other case it's worse, and when you have 4+ swamps out how many cards is your opponent that likely to have in hand? The deckbuilding constraint isn't worth the payoff.
Do people ever feel good casting Stupor? I kinda like it in Tiny Leaders but that format isn't Cube, and I cut it from my Cube pretty early on. There's also Nezumi Shortfang as a lower-powered alternative to the two Lilis.
anyway, just took another six cards with Persecute online, Villain sends me a message: "that's a ****ed up card". will never take it out of my sideboard now.
So should we start testing out some discard packages? I haven't cubed in a while so proxying up tripple thoughtseize, double kozileks double cabal + persecution could be a starter pack maybe? Sprinkle in a raven's crime, wrench mind, kolaghans command?
Sure thing. If we're assuming this experiment wants mana dork density levels (5-6 in a 360 cube; or around 1.5% of a cube of size n):
high-power:
360: 3x Thoughtseize, 2-3 flex discard, 0-1 mass discard
450: 3x Thoughtseize, 2 IoK, 3 flex discard, 1 mass discard
Lower-power:
360: 3x Inquisition of Kozilek, 2 Blackmail, 1 mass discard
450: 3x IoK, 3x Blackmail, 2 Duress, 1-2 mass discard
More than one mana:
(you should already be running LotV she's so fun)
I'll probably go with 2x IoK 2x Thoughtseize 1x Blackmail at one mana and a couple of cards at 3 and 4 mana (Persecute, LotV, K Command, Clique, Demonic Pact) out of 360, between 1.5 and 2% of my cube. Hopefully I'll get some feedback next weekend!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Mire's toll is unplayable. Ironically, the lower power you go the easier it is to accomidate discard packages, because of all of the black value ETB creatures that have discard a card stapled to them. You also get persecute, nightmare void, the specters, and okiba-gang shinobi. You even have cards like rix maadi, dungeon palace or haunting hymn, if the format is even slower.
I had forgotten about nezumi shortfang, that card seems like it could maybe squeeze in. This is starting to look more reasonable. I would like to avoid mana dorking the discard, because that kind of eats up slots. I'm always working with 360s, and running a bunch of identical cards in a section always feels like it waters down a section. Plus, the goal is to pressure midrange durdle decks, while cards like thoughtseize randomly ruin games.
These cards seem interesting to me
I'm pretty skittish about targeted discard, because my experiences with it have been so bad, but safra laid out the most likely to succeed. I've never liked duress though in limited enviorns. I think I would be most inclined to run cabal therapy and blackmail, and mayberaven's crime. I don't know though. I'm also not thrilled about putting discard effects in the multi-color section, because it feels like i'm treating that section like a dumping ground, but command is a very good card, and people say good things about gerrard's verdict. Its just a question of making sure BW decks want that effect.
Than cards that I want to succeed
We've also kind of left out these guys from the discussion. They provide another, more varied, way to run targeted discard.
I had forgotten about nezumi shortfang, that card seems like it could maybe squeeze in. This is starting to look more reasonable. I would like to avoid mana dorking the discard, because that kind of eats up slots. I'm always working with 360s, and running a bunch of identical cards in a section always feels like it waters down a section. Plus, the goal is to pressure midrange durdle decks, while cards like thoughtseize randomly ruin games.
These cards seem interesting to me
I'm pretty skittish about targeted discard, because my experiences with it have been so bad, but safra laid out the most likely to succeed. I've never liked duress though in limited enviorns. I think I would be most inclined to run cabal therapy and blackmail, and mayberaven's crime. I don't know though. I'm also not thrilled about putting discard effects in the multi-color section, because it feels like i'm treating that section like a dumping ground, but command is a very good card, and people say good things about gerrard's verdict. Its just a question of making sure BW decks want that effect.
Than cards that I want to succeed
We've also kind of left out these guys from the discussion. They provide another, more varied, way to run targeted discard.
We've also kind of left out these guys from the discussion. They provide another, more varied, way to run targeted discard.
Tidehollow Sculler is my baby gal and I love casting her but she's more of a tempo play, like if Meddling Mage was colourshifted to Orzhov. I unfortunately don't think Mesmeric Fiend and Brain Maggot are playable even with sacrifice or enchantment synergy; Sculler's 2/2 stat line is the real difference in strength. Meaningfully getting to engage in combat (and not just die to tokens or pingers) is great, sitting your Brain Maggot back until you eventually give Villain their card back in a chump block less so.
Compared to their spell-based sisters, Mesmeric Fiend effects synergize more with other discard and counterspells (since you can take away their removal / hold up a counter to protect your stolen card) and less with mass removal and attrition, so they're better in the aggressive creature decks that want to make the opponent stumble and go underneath. Deadguy-style aggro (WBx with discard and flexible answers) is pretty solid here and I think it'll be one of the beneficiaries of larger discard suites anyway.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Raven's Crime isn't great but if you have Karoos/Loam/Prowess stuff maybe it's fine?
I've always felt Augur of Skulls was kinda underrated. Mind Rot with Suspend 1 for 1B isn't too bad, and sticking it on a body makes it much easier to recur (which is great since discard scales well in the early game; the first Mind Rot is annoying, the second is brutal). Late-game it's not great but it can hold off an attacker and then clear the way for a bomb. Black doesn't have many good 2-drops anyway, so it fills a good spot on the curve.
I've always felt Augur of Skulls was kinda underrated. Mind Rot with Suspend 1 for 1B isn't too bad, and sticking it on a body makes it much easier to recur (which is great since discard scales well in the early game; the first Mind Rot is annoying, the second is brutal). Late-game it's not great but it can hold off an attacker and then clear the way for a bomb. Black doesn't have many good 2-drops anyway, so it fills a good spot on the curve.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, that mirrors my experiences with mesmeric fiend, which is why I cut him for augur of skulls. Augur is a great card, though I have no idea how high up the power ladder it can climb.
The other thing I like about this, is that it gets us talking about breathing some soul into midrange decks. B/W and B/R puts us in those jund/junk attrition strategies, though obviously its important that they foster a real attrition strategy, rather than just being a collection of good stuff.
I never really could bring myself around to raven's crime, even with the bouncelands. There was a point where I had this whole idea worked out where I was going to go deeper on using bouncelands to fuel spells that want you to discard (I already have compulsive, insidious dreams, and the red discard spells). This was to make people question auto-running 15 lands in every deck because bouncelands are so good. Than I was going to tie it in with madness to actually have a legit madness theme in cube. Unfortunatly, when I had the cards lined up, it just didn't look worth it. The cards I was going to add (raven's crime etc.) were just not strong enough to make someone run a higher land count.
They really need to bring madness back in a set, power creep has left it so far behind that only the lowest power of formats is going to find arrogant wurm a real play.
Also, no one should run this card, but this thread gives me an excuse to post it. BEHOLD
The other thing I like about this, is that it gets us talking about breathing some soul into midrange decks. B/W and B/R puts us in those jund/junk attrition strategies, though obviously its important that they foster a real attrition strategy, rather than just being a collection of good stuff.
I never really could bring myself around to raven's crime, even with the bouncelands. There was a point where I had this whole idea worked out where I was going to go deeper on using bouncelands to fuel spells that want you to discard (I already have compulsive, insidious dreams, and the red discard spells). This was to make people question auto-running 15 lands in every deck because bouncelands are so good. Than I was going to tie it in with madness to actually have a legit madness theme in cube. Unfortunatly, when I had the cards lined up, it just didn't look worth it. The cards I was going to add (raven's crime etc.) were just not strong enough to make someone run a higher land count.
They really need to bring madness back in a set, power creep has left it so far behind that only the lowest power of formats is going to find arrogant wurm a real play.
Also, no one should run this card, but this thread gives me an excuse to post it. BEHOLD
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Chain of Smog could be interesting?
Laz
Developer
I feel that you have got to have some very disciplined players for that card to not simply read 'each player discards their hand'. I mean, I can't imagine that grinning and bearing it as you discard two cards feels great, even if it is often the right play. I can however imagine casting that in my Life from the Loam/Gravecrawler deck and having to do my best to keep a straight face.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Or
Which I yes was going to add as part of that raven's crime package.
Which I yes was going to add as part of that raven's crime package.
Wow I didn't know that existed.Or
Which I yes was going to add as part of that raven's crime package.
I love it.
I played an ensnaring bridge burn deck with tactics and chain of plasma they were a neat little combo if your opponent ever tried to whack you back.