The Board Game Thread

My birthday/Christmas is coming up shortly and relatives have been curious about gift ideas. As with most years, I desire more games. I find that boardgamegeek is a pretty reliable source for new games, but I trust the riptide community more for obvious reasons.

Here's what I own that's relevant:

Dominion (everything except Guilds)
Agricola
Evo
Puerto Rico
Carcassone
Settlers + Cities & Knights
Go
Ticket to Ride
No Thanks!
Fluxx

Our favorite for the last year or so has been Agricola, so Caverna seems appealing. Any suggestions?
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Camel Up is a fabulous light game. The play length is perfect, the mechanics are efficient and the gameplay is viscerally enjoyable. The game does exactly what you want it to and its ideal for multiple consecutive plays. Visually, it just looks fun. Dropping dice out of the pyramid is cool, the colors are bright and thematic and it has stackable camels. Its much simpler and luck based then most of the games I enjoy, but I find the calculating the constantly shifting probabilities and deciding how I can best create diverging returns to be relatively interesting. Its perfectly playable with children who have basic math skills. Skilled play is rewarded, but the ceiling is probably relatively low. As far as Spiel des Jahres winners go, it isn't harkening back to the days when Torres was a winner (something that would have a 0% chance of even being considered these days), but it is a game that has broad appeal. Most importantly, everyone who I have played it with has liked it, which is the best endorsement around. If I were to put it near one of the games on your list, it would be Carc, not in its gameplay or the way in which the game conveys information, but rather in that both games are about making evaluations based on changing information and probabilities. I like that Camel Up does it in a very compact fashion as opposed to Carc's broadness, but Camel Up completely sacrifices Carc's spatial element that many find appealing.

What types of games are you interested in. I have a big board game collection and have played lots more, so if you send me in a direction I'll probably have an opinion.
 
What types of games are you interested in. I have a big board game collection and have played lots more, so if you send me in a direction I'll probably have an opinion.
Camel Up sounds interesting, I'm gonna look I to it. I'm looking for a couple games in that category (fun, simple, broad appeal) as well as maybe one more hardcore one. I remember that you're into the train economics games, which is a bit deeper than what I'm ready for. Agricola is probably my favorite game, with Dominion a close second.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Some of my favorites are:
Race for the Galaxy (tactical card game, flows really well despite apparent complexity, space-themed)
Suburbia (boring looking but surprisingly fun city-building game, sound mechanics, tension between wanting to grow and sustaining your growth)
Nefertiti (Ancient Egypt-themed auction game, buy presents for the wife of the Pharao at markets, really satisfying game mechanics)
Gargon (neat little card game that I don't play enough, well implemented trick taking elements)
Terra Mystica (fantasy-themed territory claiming boardgame, highly strategic, addictive, nice balance between wanting room to grow and wanting to be close to other players because having neighbours is good)

I heard good things about Caverna, but haven't played it myself.
I sold my copy Agricola because my wife couldn't stand the game, made her feel rushed.
 
I sold my copy Agricola because my wife couldn't stand the game, made her feel rushed.
Ha, my wife wouldn't touch almost any of these games. I got Ticket to Ride last year hoping to bridge the gap a bit.

I've played Race a number of times and enjoyed it. Terra Mystica has been on my radar since it jumped into the top ten on boardgamegeek, but I haven't played it yet. I'm thinking I might go with that one for my serious choice. Anyone else try that game?

Caverna looks sweet but I'm wondering if it's too similar to Agricola to be worth getting instead of something different.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I like Nefertiti, very cool little game. I love the cyclic nature of the auctions and the constant fighting to de-sync your own needs from the rest of the table.

The thing about 18XX games is that they are long and unforgiving, so unless you really enjoy the specific type of experience they create, you shouldn't play them. Its a niche within a niche within a nichy hobby. Most of the people I regularly play game with actively dislike them.

I wasn't too impressed with Terra Mystica. The chrome to game ratio seemed low. I mean, clearly there was stuff going on, but while others might be enticed by the sheer mass of it, I was taken aback by the inelegance. It may well be great, but it made a bad first impression

A lot of my favorite games are out of print and are expensive to acquire, but some "hardcore" to varying degree games that are readily available include:

Imperial (and its brother Imperial 2030): An economic game disguised as a wargame. This game is all about deciphering the complex incentive structure created by the players' holdings, then figuring out how to utilize the board resources to improve your relative position based on that structure. Emergent alliances constantly appear and the successful player is generally the one that can manipulate the situation so that helping their interests is in their opponent's best interest. I've played this many times and I am amazed at the varied ways things unfold. I recommend playing with the "no investor card" variant only. One negative is that often the last few rounds will often be completely procedural, which some people can find anticlimactic or frustrating. Plays in two hours or so, the box says 2-6 players but it is really a 4-5 player game. Imperial has a tighter map, while Imperial 2030 has tighter money. Imperial is probably slightly better if I had to pick one, but I'd never pass either so its basically moot.

Chicago Express: Its a game with shares and trains, but its not one of those train games. This game is really hard to understand how to play, but its short enough and the rules are short enough that even though you are completely lost strategically, it isn't overbearing. Tight auctions, agonizingly ambiguous choices, hopelessly entangled interests and a bitter fight to decide when the game ends. The strongest point of this game is that you get so much action in such a short playing time: games will often take only 30 minutes. If you're the kind of person who gets frustrated at a lack of control, this is decidedly NOT the game for you, but if trying to follow the butterfly effect in a short play time sounds appealing, this could be good.

>Will Insert a good cube pusher here later<

If you can find a cheap copy of Stephenson's Rocket, Clippers, Container, Indonesia (maybe not this one, its play time is pretty high) or The Great Zimbabwe you should get them because they are great and they have a decent resale value so even if you don't like them, you'll be ok.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Ha, my wife wouldn't touch almost any of these games. I got Ticket to Ride last year hoping to bridge the gap a bit.

I've played Race a number of times and enjoyed it. Terra Mystica has been on my radar since it jumped into the top ten on boardgamegeek, but I haven't played it yet. I'm thinking I might go with that one for my serious choice. Anyone else try that game?

Caverna looks sweet but I'm wondering if it's too similar to Agricola to be worth getting instead of something different.
Haha, I just played Ticket to Ride with my wife the other day. It's a great game :)

I wasn't too impressed with Terra Mystica. The chrome to game ratio seemed low. I mean, clearly there was stuff going on, but while others might be enticed by the sheer mass of it, I was taken aback by the inelegance. It may well be great, but it made a bad first impression
A friend of mine who owns (and plays) a lot of games (coming from someone who owns a fair number of games himself) dislikes Terra Mystica because he feels the scoring tracks are too disconnected. I feel it fits together thematically and I like how different races focus on different aspects of the game, but on a mechanical level I can understand your opinion. My wife likes the game though, and she's usually not one for games that last past an hour or so, and so far the game feels pretty balanced. Plus I like all the gimmicks. Terraforming to expand your territory, the shells of purple pills that shift back and forth, needing neighbors and space at the same time, the different play styles of the races. So yeah, it's probably the kind of game where you want to find out if it suits you before acquiring it. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

Nefertiti though, never heard a bad thing about it. I fall in love with the market closing mechanics every time I play the game.

Princes of Florence is another one I like. Nice auction game where you try to attract people to your princedom by building the right accommodations, laying them out Tangram-style on your board.

Last Will is fun too. Each player gets a large sum of money that he needs to spend as fast as possible on real estate, parties, theater, etc. Another game with very nice auction elements.

Stone Age is a fun and comparatively light worker placement game. It has more elegance than a lot of other games in the genre. Recommended if you like the genre.

7 Wonders is a very cool drafting game, but really needs the expansions for replay value. I would say Leaders is not really necessary, but Cities really adds to the game and we never play without it anymore. Extra wonders are also recommended, you can find excellent custom wonder boards on boardgame geek.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I've played a decent amount of Last Will and a lot of Princes of Florence. I recommend both highly. Princes suffers from instability at player counts other then five, though, a trait it shares with Amun-Re, which is my favorite Euro point salad style game. Princes of Florence is very good, but even with the auction and the little races towards best work, freedoms and artists, the gameplay is quite introspective, which is not a quality I appreciate. The fact that I like the game so much in spite of that is a very big compliment: I don't share the same enthusiasm for Puerto Rico or Goa, for example. The expansion adds a second auction which increases the interaction and requires you to completely reevaluate the math of the game and I recommend it, but only after a bunch of plays to feel out the base game and the proper valuations of the items.

Amun-re's two tense auction mechanics are a pleasure to take on. There is a lot going on in the valuations and its easy to mess up. And if you mess up in the first half, you can easily be effectively eliminated from contention. Other then that quibble, it has a lot to offer.

Last Will is just fun. Deck knowledge gives a significant advantage and its not deep, but its easy to get into and hard to stop playing.

I didn't like Stone Age much, but I can tell it really isn't made "for me". My favorite Worker Placement game is Caylus, but I only like the 2 player game. Multiplayer Caylus just loses all the teeth for me. Two player Caylus is a zero sum fight of epic proportion, where every coin and cube count. I have one friend I play this 2-3 times every time we get together and it is often my favorite part of the trip.

Another game for the "buy it if you can find it" list is Keythedral. That game is just awesome. You are constantly jockeying for position, ensuring that your slice of the pie is slightly bigger then everyone else's, scraping and scraping to get one lousy cube. The game looks so cute, but the edges are so sharp and everyone at the table is screaming, but in the end everyone has a smile on their face. Great game.

On the light end, if you can support the player count (6 minimum), Mascarade is an excellent game that fills the niche of a party game without the inane part. Its a pretty standard social deduction game, but it doesn't have the baggage that games like One Night Werewolf or Resistance have. The decision trees are pretty short and its more about reading the opponent then any kind of game mastery, but I smile when I play it. In a way its a "fixed" Citadels (same designer) with a more reasonable play time.
 
So between Camel Up, Nefertiti, Princes of Florence, and Last Will, which is probably the most friendly to the uninitiated gamer?

Also, some of my friends are really into Resistance and Avalon. I saw that they have a third game called Coup. Has anyone tried it?
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Camel up is the most new player friendly game on that list and Princes of Florence is the least.

Coup is ok. You don't have to buy the game, though, its trivially easy to make your own copy. It has a strong "take that" quality to it. It has a much stronger bluffing aspect and a heavy reliance on hand strength, making it vaguely reminiscent of poker. Also, Coup, like Mascarade, doesn't have the set up baggage the other games have. Its a little shallow and I imagine the permutations of endgame states will exhaust itself rather quickly.

I'd rank the current crop of light social deduction games as follows:

Mascarade > One Night Werewolf > Coup > Resistance
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I like Resistance (and Avalon) a lot more than One Night Werewolf, and a little more than Coup. Resistance is one of my favourite games that I've played in the last two years, actually. I'm in no way an expert, though.

Echoing Onder, I'm a big fan of Suburbia. It's one of the best games in the "resource management + economic engine + build stuff" genre. There isn't much randomness, other than a few hidden starting goals that you're dealt, so the skill in this game comes mostly from planning your own strategy and figuring out what your opponent's hidden goals might be. Best of all, the game is much less complex than earlier games in this genre, like Power Grid, without sacrificing depth.

Unlike Onder, though, I'm going to give two huge thumbs down to Terra Mystica. The game has far too much on-board complexity, with scads of game pieces to keep track of and multiple boards to monitor, giving rise to analysis paralysis for all but the most seasoned of board gamers. If your playgroup consists mostly of Magic players, who are used to analyzing complex board states and filtering out the useful information from the irrelevant, then perhaps give it a try. But if your group consists mainly of casual board gamers, I'd stay far, far away. I don't feel that the level of fun this game offers scales in proportion to the number of fiddly bits in the box (and I say this as someone who crushed the one game of Terra Mystica I played, taking 20 second turns while everyone else muddled about for five to ten minutes at a time).

7 Wonders is one of my favourite light games, though I'm not sure it has the most longevity. We played this pretty intently for a while, but then moved on just about as quickly. It's pretty cool that they essentially made a game out of just the booster draft portion of Magic, without needing to actually "play out the games" afterwards. Instead, you just shuffle up and draft again!

I've only played Betrayal at House on the Hill once, but my whole group was eager to try it again. It has a neat concept where it starts all of you off in a co-op game, and then an event after a fixed time turns a random person into the "betrayer". At that point, it's the team of good guys versus one bad guy, who gains a pile of super powers to compensate for his lack of numbers. It has a little bit of an adventure + exploration feel, as you explore the haunted house and uncover the map, along with some good ol' fashioned D&D style combat.

If you like Dominion, you could do worse than Trains. (Which is actually a deckbuilding game, and not one of those train games.) It combines a board, where you claim territory by building tracks and stations, with the deckbuilding component, giving the game a good deal more interaction than Dominion. I'm not sure that it tops the gold standard set by Dominion, but I've enjoyed it so far.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I meant I like Resistance least, I edited the post to hopefully make it clearer.

7 Wonders seems to have strong replay value from what I can tell. Its far from my favorite game or anything, but I've played many times and haven't completely "got" it yet and I've never turned it down, so its must be pretty good.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I will say that, as someone who always wonders why my group is bothering with board games instead of playing Magic, Resistance is one of the few games that doesn't automatically bring that question to the forefront.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Unlike Onder, though, I'm going to give two huge thumbs down to Terra Mystica. The game has far too much on-board complexity, with scads of game pieces to keep track of and multiple boards to monitor, giving rise to analysis paralysis for all but the most seasoned of board gamers. If your playgroup consists mostly of Magic players, who are used to analyzing complex board states and filtering out the useful information from the irrelevant, then perhaps give it a try. But if your group consists mainly of casual board gamers, I'd stay far, far away. I don't feel that the level of fun this game offers scales in proportion to the number of fiddly bits in the box (and I say this as someone who crushed the one game of Terra Mystica I played, taking 20 second turns while everyone else muddled about for five to ten minutes at a time).
Actually, in my experience it's the other way around. I've had great fun with casual gamers, and I've only heard negative things about the game from hardcore gamers. Casual gamers are more likely to just have fun, enjoy the flavor of the game, and do stuff. It doesn't really matter what you are focusing on, you will get points anyway. The analysis paralysis is not a problem for the casual gamers, it's a problem for the maximizers, i.e. the hardcore gamers who want to win and thus want to calculate their every move. It is also a game with very little luck, so there is a lot you can calculate, and your possible moves and thus your calculations change all the time. With slow maximizers the pace can become painfully slow. As I said though, I never had that problem with my casual gaming group. They (and I) are just having a lot of fun flying around on brooms and carpets, digging tunnels, and swimming up and down the river :)

For quick games I'm a fan of King Up! and Boomtown. King Up! especially is very beginner friendly, and full of bluffing and deduction. The game gets especially hilarious when your players have a gambling streak and start counting on others to veto an heir to conserve their own number of veto's. Boom! Suddenly someone is crowned king to the dismay of everyone but the single honest player who wasn't bluffing after all when he pushed the heir up to the throne room :D Boomtown is a nice western-themed card game where everyone is building mines to earn money, trying to become mayor of multiple towns to earn taxes, and hoping someone doesn't throw a stick of dynamite into their saloon. Plus it has nice chips that fly back and forth over the table.

Oh, I almost forgot Dixit. Also very casual friendly. The game consists of nothing but a stack of cards with full art, often a little weird. One player is the storyteller (everybody takes turns taking on this role) places a card in his hand face down on the table, comes up with a short phrase or a word describing that card, and then all other players get to add face down to the table a card from their hand that best matches that description. The storyteller shuffles the cards, deals them face up, and all the other players start guessing which card was chosen by the storyteller. Every other player then gets one point for each vote for the card he put on the table, as well as points if they chose the correct card. The trick is that, as the storyteller, you get a set amount of points, unless either everyone or noone guesses your card correctly, then you get no points at all. So you want to be cryptic, but not too cryptic* **.

* The game stops being fun, by the way, once a pair of players start to hint at private things that only they can know, like: "Jimmy", when Jimmy was the dog of one of the pair's parents when both players were still young. Other players can't be expected to be able to know that stuff, so it's a good way to score points, but a miserable and thoroughly unfun tactic to play against. Don't be a dick and chose fun descriptions people actually have a chance at figuring out.

** I always manage to think three steps too far ahead, so my descriptions are usually so cryptic not even an all-knowing entity could guess what the heck I was thinking. I'm not very good at Dixit, but I am having fun :D
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
This is more or less the exact opposite experience we had with Terra Mystica. As the sole "hardcore" gamer in the group, I planned my moves ahead of time, while other people were taking their turns, and never spent more than a minute or two actually executing my plan. The casual gamers, on the other hand, were overwhelmed by the options available to them, the fiddly pieces they needed to track, the three boards (two common, one private) they had to make progress on, and mostly, the multitude of unintuitive rules to process on the fly. While I believe there's a good to great resource management game buried underneath the piles of excess, I don't know that casual gamers can make meaningful decisions from the double digits worth of factors they need to weigh.

This opinion will probably be unpopular here, but for the same reason, I loathe Agricola at this point. The other casual gaming group I play with seems to have difficulty planning their strategy while other people are taking their turns, and as a result, easily spend upwards of five minutes thinking about options available to them that had not changed since their last turn. Maybe this isn't a slight against the game itself, so much as the people I play with, but I now permanently associate Agricola with painfully slow three-and-a-half hour grinds, where no one is happy at the end. Kind of the exact opposite of a cube draft!

So that this post isn't a total downer, I'll recommend King of Toyko as a great light strategy game. It's designed by Richard Garfield, which is a good start, and it makes a game that's almost purely about dice rolling actually fun. I hesitate to even call it a strategy game; perhaps it's more of a party game, as sound strategy won't necessarily always help you to come out ahead. But you can probably squeeze two games into an hour, and possibly even three, so in that aspect it flies by quicker than every other strategy game.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Reiner Knizia, Richard Garfield and Francis Tresham are the three greatest board/card game designers of all time. These dudes made great games, but more then that they were extremely influential to future designers. They were all went places in their designs that other people never went before. As this is a Magic forum, everyone knows Garfield, but if you want to consider yourself a game aficionado, you have to play some Knizias and at least read Tresham's rulebooks (his games are long and complicated, so my might not actually want to play them, but his rulebooks are so eloquent!).

Knizia's mathematical approach the point structures are delightful and things we completely take for granted in games we play now really came from him and his contemporaries. The reason I give Knizia the greater share of the credit (and I love Wolfgang Kramer's work who was making things at the same time and doubtlessly influenced Knizia as much as Knizia influenced him) is the sheer breadth of his work. The man made mostly light cardgames and "euros" (before the term existed), but he also made a Customizable Card Game (Blue Moon), a Wargame (Lord of the Rings: the Confrontation), an opaque Winsome-Style knifefight (Stephenson's Rocket), extremely successful variants on dominoes (Ingenius), two on rummy (Lost Cities and Battleline), Kids Games (Circus Flocatti and Poison!), Puzzle Games (FITS), probably the best negotiation game ever (Quo Vadis?) and god knows what else he has over 400 credits on BGG! He's also the undisputed master of the auction as central game mechanic. Some of his designs aren't great, particularly the ones that are he was clearly contracted to do for a specific purpose, but he has so many great titles over so many genres and so many years which were clearly influential on so many other designers that I'd have to say he's the best designer ever. I own 20 of his games (out of a collection of ~135). I have only ever gotten rid of one of them and there are a couple of others I'm looking to pick up. In conclusion, if you are in doubt, there is probably a Kniza game that fits the bill as to what you are looking for and its probably really good.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
This is more or less the exact opposite experience we had with Terra Mystica.
Haha, fair enough. In any case, it's a game I would advise people to play with their group with a borrowed copy before they buy it. It's a bit too expensive to gather dust on your shelve.

King of Tokio is a fun romp indeed. Knizia's game designs are so broad that it's hard to recommend Knizia games in even earl, but there certainly are a few gems there.
 
Another fun and new game is Imperial Settlers, which has nothing to do with Imperial or Settlers, but is a card game where you play as either Romans, Barbarians, Japanese or Egyptians, trying to build a large empire and scoring points.

I fully endorse the recommendation of Camel Up, having played it a gajillion times the latest months. 7 Wonders is also a great game, but gains a lot if you actually have 7 players. The new X-Wing game is amazing for bringing new players into the fold, if they like space ships, but it's kind of expensive to get into. My favourite game at the moment is Through the Ages, but that can be a bit of a pain to get.
 
I have a love/hate relationship with the dice tower. Sometimes they are just stupid, but when they are good, they are great.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I concur. What I love about their reviews is that I get a really good sense of both how the game plays out and of the look and feel of the game.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Played my second game of Betrayal at House on the Hill tonight, and I'll confirm that the game is a hoot. It's got pretty much everything I'm looking for in a game - asymmetrical characters, co-operative planning and strategizing, dice rolling for combat, and a D&D-like mini-campaign once the betrayer reveals himself. Someone compared it to the upcoming video game Evolve - which itself is like Monster Hunster, but with one player controlling the the villain - and I think it's an apt comparison. In any event, Betrayal joins my very short list of "games I would be happy to play in place of Magic".
 
Mage wars is kinda fun.
I've been playing a ludicrous amount of Labyrinth: The War on Terror, despite how much I didn't like Twilight Struggle, I think I might invest in more GMT games.
 
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