The community cube project

[Gozmit97]

Hello everyone!
My name is Gozmit. I have been wanting to put together a cube for a while now, but i've been struggling in many aspects. Then it struck me. I don't want to do build this thing alone. I want it to be an experience i can share with others whom are intrested. Therefore, i ask you this. Will you join me in creating an awesome cube together?

Ok, so while this is going to be democracy kinda project, where everyone has a say, i will set up a couple of requirements on the cube.

1. Let us keep it from just another power cube or pauper cube. Let's add something that makes it stand out in the crowd. I, myself, have some ideas. An artifact and/or enchantment based cube; a cube that fokuses on off the wall archetypes such as Land sac; a cube that is base on different kinds of counters (+1/+1 counters, level counters, etc); aall multicoulour cube, with an additional pack filled with lands and the list goes on.
2. We will be making a decent amount of custom cards. This goes along with the previous requirement, as the custom cards help give a feeling of specialty to the cube and help support things, that may just lack support, such as a level up deck.
3. This last requirement isn't really a requirement so to speak, but a request. I'm on of those, who get buggered by a list with 81 white cards and 82 blue, so if we could prevent that, it would be great.

So as a first priority, I want to know whose in and what kind of ideas you have for the cube theme. I will add the above four and all other ideas I see into a pool later on.
Thank you for reading this.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I tried something like this once, but it didn't really work out. I think one person needs to be pulling the strings to get anything done. Without an owner, who's going to play the cube? Who's willing to invest the time needed to keep the cube up to date? Someone needs to be king!

Well, that's my point of view anyway. Anarchists might disagree!

 

[Gozmit97]

I will be tuning it and having the last say, but i will most certainly also give you guys a say in this. i would try to play it with some firends and such.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Its a lot of work to build a cube, both posting about it, and doing the gatherer research. What I would suggest is follow the example of the Design//Contruction threads, where you are essentially leading a discussion, and requesting feedback on your ideas or when you run into problems. You are doing the bulk of the work (which you should, since its your project), but have the benefit of other people's experience.

A really good place to start (broken record here) is list out the 10 guilds and think of the themes/sub themes you want for them. For example, you could take the idea of the counters cube, and brain storm how the 10 guilds would look. We can than talk about that, or you could post about how you plan to implement the different archetypes.

 

[Eric Chan]

I'll echo Onderzeeboot's and Grillo's thoughts, in that for this project to take off and succeed, you want to have a strong guiding hand in every aspect of the design, even if you're opening up the floor for suggestions and requests. Even a democracy needs a leader.

While there's certainly a lot of technical craft involved, including a fair bit of math, building a cube is still as much art as it is science. And I would say that art by committee isn't much art at all. You want to come up with a vision for your design, and call on people to help refine your vision or offer suggestions for card alternatives when it gets down to the nitty gritty. But you still very much want to brainstorm a cohesive vision for your environment before soliciting feedback.

 

[Laz]

Welcome to Riptide Lab, where if we can add a layer of abstraction, we will. You ask about designing a Cube, the discussion instantly turns to a meta-design discussion, how to design a post to discuss designing a cube!

Bumbeh's '3-at-a-time' and '4-at-a-time' cubes are excellent examples of 'Community Cubes', but they are curiosities more than anything else. Fun experiments with what happens when a cube lacks a guiding hand. The follow-the-leader style of archetype creation was actually very cool, and reading those threads sequentially provides a experience akin to being part of a cube brainstorming session. It certainly doesn't look like that is what you want here though.

As the proud originator of the hallowed Design/Construction format (Though Jason's Eldrazi Domain cube is probably the first one, I want the credit anyway), I have found it a very good way in which to get feedback and ideas from other members of the community. As you said, you don't want yet another generic power or pauper cube, and when treading new ground, it is really useful to have others along with you, helping you sound out the way. If you haven't looked at one of Grillo's threads (or mine, but I get by with bumbling tenacity and much luck, where Grillo actually utilises his strong game-design skills), the basic structure seems similar to what you have pitched, though it usually starts with a slightly firmer base. As a thread format, I like it a lot more than the 'here is a list, what do you think?' style, as it is a thread with so much more value to readers when stumbled upon later, as you can clearly see how the thought processes have developed, as well as the origins of certain themes, thinking on individual sets of cards, etc. Plus, as the author of such a thread you can actually get feedback on lots of different design decisions, instead of just the most egregious ones that people can pick up with a quick pass over a cube-list.

Essentially the threads begin with 'I have this idea around which I want to base my design, here are a couple of things that might play with it'. For instance, Grillo lays out his design constraints (budget, how fixing should play, how he wants to eliminate non-games, etc), what colour pairs should do, etc. I say something stupid like 'So Scuttlemutt is cool, does colour matter in Magic?', etc.
From there, the discussion swirls around themes, the impacts of certain decisions, and is generally propelled forwards as sets of cards are added to the cube skeleton, providing both points of reference and inspiration for future themes with mechanical overlap.

So, I think what I am saying is this, 'What is your vision for this Cube?'

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Yeah, good post Laz. There's nothing wrong with asking outside help, in fact I'ld encourage it, because it's impossible to not have a skewed perspective on your own cube. Your opening post is much too open-ended though. There's no advice I can give, because there is no cube, no idea to base my advice on.

 

[Eric Chan]

Welcome to Riptide Lab, where if we can add a layer of abstraction, we will. You ask about designing a Cube, the discussion instantly turns to a meta-design discussion, how to design a post to discuss designing a cube!

A good layer of abstraction is like a good onion. Peel back the layers, letting your tears fall, take the onion skin off so you can get to the inner layers, then...

Hmmm, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Best you guys carry on without me.

 

[Gozmit97]

I must admit, I'm kinda split on what kind of cube I want to make. either it's going to be one based ond different kinds of counters or one with off the wall archetypes. I really just can't come to a descision, as I am horrible at choosing. The counters seem sweet, but I'm afraid if it's going to work. The other cube seems a bit more bleak if I don't find intresting archetypes to focus on. If someone could be so nice as to help me come to a conclusion, that would be very nice. I know this is is reminiscent of the first post and that it's my cube, my choice, but I did narow it down to 2 ideas and I really could use some help to make the final choice.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

There are already a number of Riptide cubes employing a +1/+1 counter theme, but I can't seem to find them right now. If you do a bit of digging around you should be able to find them, and then you could draft them a few times on CubeTutor and figure out if you like what you see. Either way you'll know which of the two it's going to be

If you can't find the cubes, you can also look for CubeTutor cubes with counter-specific cards. Ion Storm would probably be a good one.

 

[Gozmit97]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm making a bit more regular cube, though with ssome intresting twists to the archetypes. the ideas I have for guild archetypes at the moment are:
UW: Blink
UB: ?
BR: Madness, hellbent
GR: Land sac, ramp
GW: Untap matters OR Landfall
WB: ?
BG: Undying/persist
GU: Scry, top card of library matters, clash OR Landfall
UR: Storm aggro OR Scry, top card of library matters, clash

RW: ?
If you have a suggestion, please do leave a comment.

 

[safra]

untapped matters sounds like a sweet place to take things, I'd motivate that d (direction)

karoos / other strong lands w/ abilities
mana dudes
pinger dudes
tapper dudes
tricky stack dudes like that tap draw two trade control red guy

check out how Grillo pulled off TOL matters in his insisted cube
mayb extend TOL/scry into general card advantage and selection, the deck doesn't fizzle as much that way imo

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Some people just want to play dudes. It's perfectly fine to have "weenie aggro" be the theme for Boros!

 

[Gozmit97]

That may be, but i'd like all color combinations to fell speciel. It doen'st have to be complicated, but atleast different. I've considered a deffender deck aswell. What colors would that fit in?
I took a look at Grillo's inistrad cube, and I'm not sure what you mean by TOL theme. Would you care to explain?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

TOL = Top of Library

A defender theme could be squarely put in , with cards like Vent Sentilen and Rolling Stones in those colors.

Do you know magiccards.info? It's a very good site to search for cards, especially via the advanced search. It's trivially easy to search for all red and white cards that have "with defender" in their body text for example, or varations thereof.



There's also some green cards that would be interesting though, so maybe you want the theme in or instead?



Vent Sentinel is the all star in this theme though, and I don't think it's going to work unless you break singleton and put in multiples of that card into your cube.

Word of warning: Perimeter Captain is crazy good at shutting aggro down. If you want to support aggro, make sure they can deal with this somehow.

 

[Kirblinx]

In one of my theorycraft spaces I thought about making RWG defenders. The main driver behind the archetype would these guys:


It feels like this is treading a decent amount of space as the 4-at-a-time cube. It had a cool TOL/CMC theme (that I like to think pushed it too far). The 3-at-a-time cube had a land sac theme. They are also examples of what happens when there isn't a guiding hand. There are some great ideas in there and all you need to do is rid the themes that are <5 cards deep and pump up the archetypes you have left.

Best way is to start with one theme/idea that you really want to play that you may or may not see often in cubes. Once you figure out the cards for that section you can build archetypes in relating colours. I feel you end up with some sweet designs this way.

I am having a great time watching Grillo's Bleed cube come together with the different ideas he is bouncing around. I also had a fun time drafting different stages of his Penny Pincher cube, before it became the featured cube. It is just the way I enjoy cubes being built, you don't have to follow this pattern. My advice is generally pretty mediocre, but I like to dummy draft, so if you want to see what random-ass decks your cube can produce, I am your man

 

[Chris Taylor]

Some people just want to play dudes. It's perfectly fine to have "weenie aggro" be the theme for Boros!

I'd also like to note that "boring" archetypes like this do help as a good entry point to a cube enviornment.
While the wacky vent sentinel deck is fun, it's not always obvious at first blush, especially if it's your first time drafting this thing.

 

[Gozmit97]

Yeah, I kinda realised that I might be going a tad too far with defender. While I really like the defender deck, I'm scared of what it would do to the cube. I've also come to the conclusion that I should make sure that my archtypes are not to complicated, atleast not all of them. I'm having a really hard time finding out what I want my archetypes to be, and am really not sure how to choose between them. Maybe I should just go simple for my first cube and go the usual Aggro/Midrange/Control/Ramp path.

 

[Laz]

Can we brainstorm the Defender-matters theme a little more?

There are pretty decent walls across all of the colours of Magic, and payoff cards as well. While I am not sure you want to have Doorkeeper as your payoff, it is there. Perhaps this could work as a 5-colour theme, or in Naya as discussed above? Do you want people drafting 5-colour Defender control? It might be a possible archetype with Axebane Guardian as the main draw.

What does having a large number of Defenders do to your environment? They roadblock traditional Aggro, but there are plenty of other aggro styles you could try.
Perhaps UW fliers is an aggro archetype, as they are not so shut down by walls? I am concerned that might reduce the demand for walls, since they don't actually shut down early aggression. Then you simply have people drafting 'the walls deck' instead of having competing demand. Unless you make your mid-range lower-powered (as in P/T power, so that it can't overrun the walls), such that Walls represents more of a controlling strategy.
Maybe have the aggro decks be more of a vertical aggro strategy, like Heroic, with attackers that grows beyond the wall's toughness, so they act more like speed-bumps than road blocks? In such an environment could Twisted Image or Inside Out be useful cantrips that occasionally kill walls, but often buff Heroic creatures?

There might be enough there to at least start an exploration. I would hate to have this thread come to a grinding halt because you can't come up with a full archetype list. I have found that you can often just follow through the consequences of design decisions and see where you end up.

 

[Modin]

Save the walls!

 

[Chris Taylor]

Parapet is actually a sweet card in kahns draft, and kind of everything you want from an early defensive card like that.
Possibly lobber crew?

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Id actually started brainstorming a walls cube which has some ideas you can steal:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/26956

Laz's question re aggro is relevant though. One answer I came up with is heavier density of deathtouch than normal, overlapping with fight effects, and causing creatures to attack. Reckon it could be fun.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Theres actually a pauper wall based ramp/combo deck. Its not very competitive, but it is cool, and on point.

Its based around axebane guardian and overgrown battlement. What they really want to do is transmute for a copy of freed from the real and get that on an axebane guardian. At that point you have infinite mana and can draw the rest of your deck with train of thought (or transmute) looking for a copy of rolling thunder, or viridian longbow to win with.

Mnemonic wall is another great value control card that fits into a defenders theme. It would work well with doorkeeper as part of a mill control deck. Sunscape familiar would be another great inclusion, as it acts like a ramp card for control decks and holds the ground. You can also run bouncelands with mnemonic wall to enable another combo deck, familiar combo.

Another angle to approach it from is with sacrifice outlets, where the walls hold the early game and than are used as fodder in the mid or late game.

If you run a heavy walls theme, I would run some cards that make the walls a liability or weaken their role. This could be evasive creatures like champion of lambholt, shadow creatures, protection creatures, noggle bandit, creatures with wither, or punishment cards like pillory of the sleepless or stab wound

 

[Gozmit97]

If I was to go the defender matters route, I think I would make it the theme for the cube, all the way. This is a viable option to take the cube, and one that I would not mind, though it stil sorta intimidates me. I might just go with a fairly normal cube, maybe making a skewing blue more aggresive, making red/black control a thing, etc etc. If i do end up with the 10 archetypes i'm looking for at one point or if you have any suggestions, do feel free do note them here.