Card/Deck The Simic Combine

Since I can't find any helpful discussion on the identity of simic decks and this is a problem my cube has, I figured I would start a thread to get some ideas.

Every other guild in my cube has pretty solidified archetypes and has been drafted several times:
RG big red, real estate, wildfire
RW tokens, weenies, blasphemous act
RU counterburn, I can't believe its not storm
RB suicide aggro, sacrifice shenanigans
GW hatebears, creatures, ramp / Piper, enchantments
GU something tempoish was supposed to be here.. eh?
GB attrition midrange, death cloud, reanimator
WU tempo/control, "Geist" decks, durdle
WB Pikula, Tap out control, Smokestack, Lifegain
UB grindy control, hard resource denial, Artifacts

There has already been a thread that discussed the multicolor simic cards in particular, and that's already been beaten to death, so I am only interested in discussing relevant monocolor cards at this point, esp since that's the bulk of relevant cards.

Right now I'm thinking that the hypothetical simic tempo deck is too narrow or too weak and I need to try a completely different direction. These are the archetypes I've thought about:

I could try running stuff like Heartbeat of Spring , Time Spiral, Upheaval to make a UG combo-ramp deck. I don't run any cards with Storm or things like Palinchron but there's already a good amount of Prowess and cantrips so going balls deep into the most parasitic archetype ever is an option, but I would rather find a way to make this not parasitic. (There was a somewhat relevant Supporting Storm thread, but parasitism was never even brought up in that thread and Heartbeat itself wasn't really discussed)

There is the potential to use cards like Deathmist Raptor and Unblinking Bleb to do UG morph if that's any good at all. I already run every 2cmc megamorph, Sagu Mauler, Whisperwood Elemental, a few of the old blue morphs. I think this needs another morph block and seriously pushed payoff cards to properly support this as a major archetype and not just a small subtheme but maybe there's a way?

Vintage Masters had a really sweet UG Madness theme and I already have enough green discard outlets and blue looters, but with only four options this isn't a thing unless there's a huge pile of cards I don't know about that would support this in different ways. Maybe stuff like Hooting Mandrills could help. I would probably replace cards like Scavenging Ooze with support for this to encourage it.

Thoughts? Any simic decks you've drafted and enjoyed?
 
Having both Lorescale Coatl and Horizon Chimera lets you get full value out of your cantrips and your looting; on a related note, the increased power of Brainstorm goes on to support some green TOL shenanigans like with Mul Daya Channelers, while the looting allows for self-mill, which is a legit UG strategy especially if you don't push it too far into other colors and the simic guy can take it all.
I think I would recommend double Brainstorm + double Thought Scour, as they a) empower the UR prowess archetype pretty well, being 4 instants cantrips for 1; b) play very well with each other c) give identity to this kind of UG deck. Check the brainstorm thread (i think there is one, or maybe it was a SingleSpotlight discussion?) for more ways to make it happen.
 
I could try running like Master Biomancer and Sage of Fables if I wanted to extend the +1/+1 subtheme into blue. Its possible but I'm hesitant because it feels like its going to be a relatively low power deck, possibly having the same problem UG tempo has had for me. Its probably still better than the morph idea though, I will give it that. :p

Blink is really a WU archetype. Crystal shard exists but you need to be in white to get the redundancy for that deck. Mystic snake was removed from my cube awhile back because when UWg blink was drafted, snake wasn't even good enough to justify its awkward cost. When a card isn't performing even in the single best deck for it in the format, its time to move on.

Tempo is what I thought I was supporting, I have most of the cards that appeared in the tempo decks in the old thread, but I can not get that deck to compete with other archetypes to save my life... the problem is hard to pinpoint but it might be that tempo players go UR or even UW over going UG. Why go with ramp and recursion in a deck that doesn't need a ton of mana and has enough draw when you can have burn or removal and stuff like Resto. Edric himself is a good card but does green even bring as much to this deck as another color would? Idk, maybe I'm still not clear on what the incentive is to go UG for that deck.

The UG graveyard deck seems interesting and I can probably find room to support it.

I'm actually really interested in seeing more of what a UG top of library matters deck would do. I feel like it looks something like Brainstorm / Scroll Rack / Sylvan Library plus Thought Scour and shuffle effects plus Courser of Kruphix / Future Sight / Oracle of Mul Daya. What other cool stuff can this archetype do beyond generating a ton of card advantage? Anyone have decklists or a list of relevant cards not yet mentioned for this idea?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Tempo is what I thought I was supporting, I have most of the cards that appeared in the tempo decks in the old thread, but I can not get that deck to compete with other archetypes to save my life... the problem is hard to pinpoint but it might be that tempo players go UR or even UW over going UG. Why go with ramp and recursion in a deck that doesn't need a ton of mana and has enough draw when you can have burn or removal and stuff like Resto. Edric himself is a good card but does green even bring as much to this deck as another color would? Idk, maybe I'm still not clear on what the incentive is to go UG for that deck.

Tempo in mtg parlance is basically a synonym for spell velocity. You would have to go under the hood of your cube to see how your tempo decks are functioning. Traditional (powered) UG tempo decks revolved around blue cantrips, counterspells for disruption, and powerful ETB green creatures.

Whatever you do is going to reflect a formula of cantrips to smooth out draws, disruption from counterspells, and some way to get ahead on spell castings.
 
Potential UG Topdeck package: Oracle of Mul Daya, Mul Daya Channelers, Future Sight, Courser of Kruphix, Impromptu Raid, Conundrum Sphinx, Predict, Sylvan Library, Brainstorm and friends, Scroll Rack, Stretching it even harder: Skill Borrower, Bloodline Shaman, Miracle cards? Thoughts?

My cube's cantrip suite is a lot smaller than most cubes, so that could actually be what's making the difference. I guess I'm just not giving blue the card selection it needs to go this route. I will have to analyze some of our games a lot more closely to get a better idea of how they function compared to traditional UG tempo. Maybe UG topdeck support will actually help those decks get the smooth draws they need. Kill two birds with one stone. :3
 

Aoret

Developer
Somebody with super powers should probably just merge this thread with that other one that trainwrecked. Personally I wasn't all that satisfied with the "run coatl and chimera and then cast brainstorms" look on this color pairing. To me it just feels flat; I ran both cards for forever and I never once went "Oooh I want to play this color combo!" when I opened them. Of course, this is an entirely personal preference based argument, but I also never saw any of my drafters play the pairing either, so it seems like I need some other kind of solution.

The UG Topdeck theme feels more exciting to me, and I already run the better cards in the list that Tzenmoroth listed, so maybe it's worth pushing the archetype a little further. This feels very reminiscent of other riptide packages where somebody has realized we're already running a bunch of cards that are good in a theme and it really only needs another card or two to really incentivize it.
 
Retreading a little on my post above, but I really like the +1/+1 counter theme in this color combination. There's a lot to work with there and it can go in various directions (more aggro if you play it straight or more combo depending on how much you push the synergy aspect of the mechanic). It's the best and most fun identity I've found for this color combination. As much as a love the UG tempo style aggro decks, they are hard to assemble and they are not super consistent in cube in my experience.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
UG is mostly a ramp color pair here, with two very distinct sub archetypes: one more controlling focused around managing bursts of mana, while the other more of a true ramp deck concerned with consistent big mana abuse. Don't know how easy that is to port over to higher power formats, but you can run utopia sprawl and fertile ground at least, while frantic search is perfectly playable.

We also have more tempo varients, that revolve around buffing little flyers to smash with, backed up by disruption.

100% support for the tol interactions though: channeler's is a really sweet card. TOL interactions of course, aren't really a strategy, you are still on a tempo plan, accept you are generating spell effects off of the triggered abilities you use to manipulate your TOL, making it essentially the U/G version of prowess. Delve cards are also really strong here, since you are looking to maximize spell castings, in order to multiply your triggers.

I think you may have fallen into a trap I lamented about briefly in the other thread, where people go to support a "tempo" theme, which to them means running a bunch of cards that have a reputation as "tempo cards," but not really thinking about how those cards will actually generate spell velocity in the context of their own environment.

Do you have a link to your list, btw?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Retreading a little on my post above, but I really like the +1/+1 counter theme in this color combination. There's a lot to work with there and it can go in various directions (more aggro if you play it straight or more combo depending on how much you push the synergy aspect of the mechanic). It's the best and most fun identity I've found for this color combination. As much as a love the UG tempo style aggro decks, they are hard to assemble and they are not super consistent in cube in my experience.
When I still supported UG, I had a custom spell-land (think Gavony Township) that proliferated for {1}{G}{U}, {T}. It totally won a draft!
 
UG control has potential in theory, someone could probably build it in my cube, but none of us have I guess and after a ton of drafts too. o_O I might update my tappedout list and give it a few attempts. Im still figuring out how to implement a top of library matters theme in UG (Probably tied in with landfall), thinking about ways to keep the archetype rooted in UG e.g. possibly replacing colorless options like Top with topdeck manipulation in UG if I can find more.

Also, does anyone know how to remove cards from or clear out a cube on cubetutor? I had a huge update to load, ended up making the cube big, tried a few times to find a way to remove cards in bulk, have like 4,000 cards in the cube now. I think without the ability to bulk remove cards, cubetutor is just useless to me and I need to stick to tappedout. I don't update my cube often, but when I do I practically shred it. xD
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Also, does anyone know how to remove cards from or clear out a cube on cubetutor? I had a huge update to load, ended up making the cube big, tried a few times to find a way to remove cards in bulk, have like 4,000 cards in the cube now. I think without the ability to bulk remove cards, cubetutor is just useless to me and I need to stick to tappedout. I don't update my cube often, but when I do I practically shred it. xD
You can reset a cube (and start from scratch) by clicking on the little cogwheel in the top right corner and select 'Reset A Cube' from the drop down menu.
 
Wow thanks, I didn't even catch that icon. I'm a noob. :p I shall load a list tomorrow and maybe even post it.

Okay but seriously, how many of these are cubeable under the assumption that the UG section supports topdeck manipulation pretty well? These cards go super well with stuff like Sylvan Library, Crystal Ball, Oracle of Mul Daya, etc but I feel like they might just suck. Clash likes green's ability to go big too which is nice and Research the Deep as an archetype has my inner Johnny excited as all hell. Brings me back to playing with Evermind. xD


I think this theme basically boils down to making obscenely efficient real and virtual card advantage through synergy, which will in turn probably power various UG tempo/control/ramp decks that happen to have a lot of weird tinkering with their library going on. The more I think about it, the more I really like it and feel like it can work if I find the right cards to get it there.
 
The problem I have with this idea is that Clash is really high variance and odds are a TOL manipulation deck will run too wide a range of CMC spells to effectively capitalize on Clash other than pushing percentages by a small amount. It seems a bit too cute to me, unfortunately.

I strongly encourage folks to go the route of UG super-ramp/control, as it has been extremely fun and popular over here. A potent combo of fast mana generation, a disruptive toolkit, and creatures that can stomp over, fly over, or sneak under enemy defenses leads to some really run decks and a playstyle that actually FEELS thematically unique to UG without being poisonous - a feat I have yet to get well in-hand for some other, more commonly-enjoyed colour pairs. Bring to Light and the UG manland will provide even more delicious toolbox potential out of BFZ, and Awaken could play nicely with some untap effects for surprise fighters.
 
Awaken is pretty nice with manlands as well :)
Do you awaken the manland? Isn't that putting eggs in a basket?

Also, this might be a soft link but it's pretty coincidental so could maybe be expanded upon without it really taking all that much space now that we're in the TOL manipulation topic:



Brainstorm helps setting up collected company, and popping a creature with pod gives you a shuffle for brainstorm. With other green TOL cards worldly tutor and chord of calling and land fetchers is there room for green as a brainstorm support color?

Bluegreen creature combo?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Also, this might be a soft link but it's pretty coincidental so could maybe be expanded upon without it really taking all that much space now that we're in the TOL manipulation topic:



Brainstorm helps setting up collected company, and popping a creature with pod gives you a shuffle for brainstorm. With other green TOL cards worldly tutor and chord of calling and land fetchers is there room for green as a brainstorm support color?

Bluegreen creature combo?

The problem is that its not really a theme, and more of an incidental interaction. You're never going to have the effect density to make that work consistently in a deck. Honestly, the TOL theme is going to be hard to run as a theme without aggressive singleton breaking.

The natural impetus of simic is green dudes backed up by counters and draw smoothers, or control-ramp. TOL manipulation can fold into those themes as a sub-interaction.
 
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