To loot or not ?

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/luis-scott-vargas/whats-the-play-the-looter-problem/

Why hasn't this question popped up in these forums yet.
I've had so many arguments over this problem already, you must add more fuel to the fire before the flame runs out ! ;)

What i chose:
I didn't want to loot and i still stand by that. We are ahead, so why should i risk it by looting away a card that could be useful in later turns, not to mention it has a perfect target for it already.
The fact that you rather want Control Magic over anything doesn't give me enough reason to risk drawing it on this loot and then having to discard the removal.
Also any creature is a good draw so i don't want to discard them either if i happen to draw them from this loot.
I wouldn't loot on the fact that it's more likely to draw a land from this loot, it seems too risky still. We are in a good spot even if we just pass the turn anyway.
 
Since Lightning Blast is arguably the second best card in your deck at this point in the game, looting at the opponent's end step is basically milling for no value. I would definitely wait until the draw step to have better discard selection. At that point, I'd probably loot even if I don't draw a land, because drawing into Control Magic would probably win you the game.

In general though, if a good card has a reasonable chance of being upgraded to a better card, I'll loot EOT. LSV's example is sort of an extreme case where the rest of your library (besides Control Magic) is significantly worse than what's in your hand.

EDIT: Having now read LSV's response, I realize that he is correct. If you do the math:

Scenario A: loot after draw step

7.7% chance of seeing Control Magic
if successful, 100% chance of being able to keep Control Magic and Lightning Blast
7.7% chance of ending up with both

Scenario B: loot EOT

11.5% chance of seeing Control Magic
if successful, 2/3 chance of being able to keep Control Magic and Lightning Blast
7.7% chance of ending up with both

Control Magic being on top of your library is equivalent to being the third card you wouldn't see in Scenario A.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
The second best card is just as likely to be the bottom in the set of cards you might see this game as the top, so that's a wash. If your top card is anything other than your best card, you want to Loot. So you're weighing up the probability that the top card is your best card AND not having access to the second best card loses you the game versus the probability that each other card you might draw this game being one card further down loses you the game, which I think is considerably higher. In other words, even if you think you 100% lose this game if you Loot immediately and hit the second best card, it's probably still correct to do it (though you could easily change the details of the scenario so that it isn't)
 
Not knowing what else could be in my opponent's deck, I'm reluctant to loot because I don't want to be in a situation where I have no answers left in my deck for another threat of a similar caliber. However, I think what LSV says about looting is correct, just not necessarily for this specific example.

A big part of this is that we're substantially advantaged (empty board, we have a looter) if we just untap and Lightning Blast the angel. So we have a situation where the most important question is, "What do we lose to?" And besides the idea of our opponent answering the Control Magic somehow there's the more probable one where they just have another threat that doesn't die to Shock.

If you loot EOT, there's around a 4% chance that the card you see is Control Magic, and you discard the Lightning Blast, and you're now losing to a bigger flyer, or disadvantaged to a removal spell followed by a 3/3. So it's not a disaster but it's also one of the only ways you lose this game. This wouldn't be nearly as bad if we had another reasonable removal spell left in our deck.

The upside is that you see one more card. In which situations is seeing that card the difference between winning and losing? It's basically only those where the extra card you see is Control Magic, and it's the extra card you see because your opponent had an extra threat that you otherwise die to. So assuming the opponent has a threat (which we might as well because we already win all the other games), that's the same 4% as above. There's also the case where you would have seen the Control Magic in time without looting, but the loot allows you to Control Magic on 5 life instead of 1, for example, which does affect your chances of victory somewhat. If the opponent could have burn in their deck I would assign this some extra value and that could push us more towards looting. Other than burn, what we lose to from having stolen their backup threat is very similar regardless of whether we're on 1 or 5 life, so I don't think this narrow case adds value to looting.

So if we're 4% to make ourselves vulnerable and 4% to save ourselves from a vulnerable position, it seems like it's essentially neutral. What other factors might influence our choice? What other consequences would looting have? The card we see is 4% to be Control Magic, which is kinda bad as we accounted for above, 54% to be a spell which we immediately discard, making our deck marginally worse, and 42% to be a land which we immediately discard, making our deck marginally better. It seems like looting in this exact position is very slightly wrong, but it's very close.

But what LSV really meant to say, as he puts in his answer, is "you have your second-best card in hand and your deck contains a much better card and a bunch of generic mediocre win conditions" and given that, do you loot?

And it's hard to answer this in a vacuum because Magic is complicated and there are so many edge cases. Every little bit of information pushes you one way or another. But I've thought about this problem for some time now and I've come up with an example that I believe illustrates LSV's point:

Your opponent has no creatures in play and no cards in hand. You have three Islands and three Mountains, all tapped, and an untapped Merfolk Looter. You have a Moon Heron in your hand. Both players have 16 life. Your deck contains:

Hypothetical Situation

Creatures (10)
Air Elemental
Hill Giant
Wind Drake
Goblin Piker

Spells (5)
Unsummon
Shock
Searing Spear

Lands (11)
Island
Mountain

Here, I think looting EOT is unambiguously correct. You would absolutely always like to draw Air Elemental and would happily throw away Moon Heron for it. So you're 4% to be totally happy with the choice immediately. You'd discard any non-Air Elemental card you drew, but you'd be more likely to see the Air Elemental on any following turn in that case. Note that unlike an answer, where drawing it earlier matters only if the opponent has something at that moment, drawing a threat earlier improves your clock and decreases the number of cards the opponent gets to see. So supposing the game goes on for 7 more turns, that's 6 more positions in the deck the Air Elemental could be where you draw it earlier because you looted and it gets to attack, for another ~23% that looting EOT helps you win faster.

(7 turns is how long it will take to kill them with Moon Heron, but you could easily draw other threats that would shorten the clock, or the opponent could be able to interact. It's beyond the scope of this model to examine the exact consequences of each series of draws.)

So instead of looting EOT having 4% of a downside and 4% of an upside as in LSV's example, we have 4% of immediate upside and 23% of delayed upside. So in this case we definitely loot.

What's the actual distinguishing factor here? I think in his example, if we had another flexible removal spell in our deck, the downside is diminished and we should loot. In my example, if we didn't have any win conditions besides Moon Heron and Air Elemental, there would be a substantial downside to discarding Moon Heron and looting would be less good and possibly wrong. After all, once our deck has only one threat in it, we lose to one removal spell. A 4% of losing the game outright to any removal spell probably outweighs a 23% of drawing the other threat one turn earlier.

So, in my example, there's no likely trajectory the game could take where you need to be able to cast the Moon Heron specifically in order to win the game, because there are other cards that fulfill that role that you could draw. In LSV's example, there are trajectories where you need to be able to cast the Lightning Blast specifically in order to win, because you have so few outs to a second threat.

Both examples live in the same region of the game space, where we are advantaged and so we're looking to minimize our opponent's outs. If we were behind, the logic would change. If in LSV's example the opponent had a second Serra Angel already in play, I think looting is definitely correct because even if we Lightning Blast one of them we're on a strict clock to draw the Control Magic, and the Control Magic creates board parity by itself, and we're in no position to assume the opponent will have anything else because we can't beat any of it if they do.

I also think LSV's logic is correct in the majority of real game situations. There are occasionally positions where you're in more of a gray area where there is ambiguity in whether looting is correct or not and you need to examine the entire game state, but that's far from a common occurrence. "If you shortcut to 'loot any time you have anything but your best card,' you will be right way more often than not," as he says. And no one has time to write out a full analysis in the middle of a game. You just take the shortcut, because brain resource management is a thing, and other decisions will affect the result of the game more, so you should devote more thinking time to those.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I think I understand why it's correct to loot on end-step, despite holding a great card in hand, but this goes against everything my intuition tells me. My 'gut feel' is so strong that I probably still wouldn't loot at the end of my opponent's turn, despite strong reasoning that proves my gut is wrong.

This seems like one of those classic 'analytics vs. intuition' battles, where most people's initial thoughts on the matter will be both very assured, and very off.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The simple explanation is that you aren't actually drawing to anything but a threat, as you already have the answer in hand.

At this point in the game all you want is a threat to put pressure on the opponent asap, to win the top deck war, which you are already favored in because you have a looter. One of the only ways you lose here is bricking off, and you have a ton of bricks in your deck (over 50%) due to the game's victory conditions having adapted (its debatable that piker is a real draw). You need to adapt your strategy to reflect this.

Statistically, you are more likely to EOT loot into a brick you want to burn through, but there is a chance you loot into a non-control magic threat and proceed to screw yourself.

Since you have the answer in hand, and opponent has 0 cards in hand, why take the risk? I'm in such a favored position, and one of the only ways I randomly lose here is by EOT looting away a threat, bricking, and giving the opponent the draw steps they need to get out of this.

I'm on team don't EOT loot.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
We also have to take into account the way player names and acronyms effect statistical probability.

When your name is said to stand for Luck, Skill, Victory, your probability of hitting a land off of your loot, followed by a land off of an upkeep loot, into drawing your control magic, is roughly 150.9 %.

Thats just pro playing.
 
I loot in that situation 100% of the time. The opponent is hellbent, I have an answer to their threat in hand, and I know exactly which card I want to hit. So I see only two possible outcomes from looting EOT:

1) Draw into something other than Control Magic, loot it away because the Lightning Blast is better.
2) Draw into Control Magic, loot away the blast b/c Control Magic is the best card left.

At this point of the game, an unanswered Serra Angel that you steal away could just close it out really quickly. If my opponent had cards in hand or I had more knowledge of what I need to watch out for, my play is probably different, but at this point I'm trying to go for broke rather than try and grind them down. I don't think I have enough creatures/burn in the deck to comfortably stick a clock on the opponent. I need to deal with the Angel somehow or else I'm probably going to die to it or even if I draw into a flyer, they'll be on chump duty soon enough to just keep my life total afloat. If I hit the Control Magic, I've put them on a clock where they must topdeck an answer to their own creature or just lose in a few turns.

If I needed a combination of cards to get out of this situation, I don't loot because it's too risky to ditch the Lightning Blast, but I felt like this one wasn't too hard of a choice personally. Always be looting.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I loot in that situation 100% of the time. The opponent is hellbent, I have an answer to their threat in hand, and I know exactly which card I want to hit. So I see only two possible outcomes from looting EOT:

1) Draw into something other than Control Magic, loot it away because the Lightning Blast is better.
2) Draw into Control Magic, loot away the blast b/c Control Magic is the best card left.

3) Draw into a creature, loot it away because you need to answer the angel. Fail to hit a threat in your subsequent draws. They top deck better than you and win.
4) Draw into a creature, don't loot it away, and discard the answer. They top deck better than you, and you lose to the angel.

Looting just seems like one of the ways that you lose a game that you are otherwise ahead on.

---

And as it happens, it turns out I have a pro that agrees with me too!
 
3) Draw into a creature, loot it away because you need to answer the angel. Fail to hit a threat in your subsequent draws. They top deck better than you and win.
4) Draw into a creature, don't loot it away, and discard the answer. They top deck better than you, and you lose to the angel.

Looting just seems like one of the ways that you lose a game that you are otherwise ahead on.

---

And as it happens, it turns out I have a pro that agrees with me too!

I mean, I can't really play around topdecks unless I know something specific that I've got to worry about from a previous game. If I know that he's got a card that will just end me, I'm definitely playing the game a little differently, but I'm not envisioning 9 damage right off the top. Against an unknown, I just go for broke here. I'm still going to be seeing two cards to his one every cycle of turns with the looter so I feel pretty confident hitting something relevant. I just feel like it's better to actively work towards a card that will probably win me the game in Control Magic.

All I know is that if I don't deal with that angel someway, somehow, I'm probably dying to it or just chumping it to oblivion with whatever smaller fliers I end up drawing into. Despite having the looter, I don't feel like I'm that far ahead in this boardstate. If he topdecks and draws better than me, there's not realistically anything I can do about that so I'm just going to play to my outs here. I just don't have any way in my deck to quickly close out the game, it'll still be a grind of at least 3-4 turns after dropping some creature. Getting one closer to the best card in my deck is perfectly fine for me here, if I don't hit it, then I'm probably still seeing two other cards during my turn from draw + another loot. I'm fine going 3 cards deeper into the deck looking for more gas.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I mean, I can't really play around topdecks unless I know something specific that I've got to worry about from a previous game. If I know that he's got a card that will just end me, I'm definitely playing the game a little differently, but I'm not envisioning 9 damage right off the top. Against an unknown, I just go for broke here. I'm still going to be seeing two cards to his one every cycle of turns with the looter so I feel pretty confident hitting something relevant. I just feel like it's better to actively work towards a card that will probably win me the game in Control Magic.

All I know is that if I don't deal with that angel someway, somehow, I'm probably dying to it or just chumping it to oblivion with whatever smaller fliers I end up drawing into. Despite having the looter, I don't feel like I'm that far ahead in this boardstate. If he topdecks and draws better than me, there's not realistically anything I can do about that so I'm just going to play to my outs here. I just don't have any way in my deck to quickly close out the game, it'll still be a grind of at least 3-4 turns after dropping some creature. Getting one closer to the best card in my deck is perfectly fine for me here, if I don't hit it, then I'm probably still seeing two other cards during my turn from draw + another loot. I'm fine going 3 cards deeper into the deck looking for more gas.


Isn't it greedy though to EOT loot? There are looting sequences there that can cause you to lose the game, while even your best looting sequence seems win-more.

With the answer already in hand, you can afford to play around those losing looting sequences by avoiding the EOT loot. What are you in such a rush to draw for that its worth risking the game?
 
Isn't it greedy though to EOT loot? There are looting sequences there that can cause you to lose the game, while even your best looting sequence seems win-more.

With the answer already in hand, you can afford to play around those losing looting sequences by avoiding the EOT loot. What are you in such a rush to draw for that its worth risking the game?

I don't think it's win-more if I don't really have a draw that will allow me to close out the game in a timely manner.

The way I see it, my best threat is literally Hill Giant from this point and some 2/2 evasive dudes. Even if I stick one of those guys after blasting the angel, I'm still probably giving the opponent 4-5 more turns to find something relevant. I have a TON of dead draws in this situation that I wouldn't mind clearing out of the way to get to a Control Magic that would likely just win me the game if unanswered. With the opponent hellbent, I'd want to take advantage of this window to get closer to my best chance of winning. It's probably more aggressive than your typical line, but I want to apply some pressure and work towards a card that will flip the game.

I just can't think of anything crazy punishing for an EOT loot here. If they topdeck the right answer after I get Control Magic, that's just going to happen, can't really play around luck like that. Unless it's a super blowout play (like dropping a body + killing CM), I should still be in good shape with the looter on board.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I agree, thats why the loot seems greedy.

If you loot into the threat and have to discard it, its now possible to lose.

If you don't loot here, you eliminate that risk, a risk that you aren't really under any pressure to take.
 
I just don't agree with that, I don't feel like it's greedy at all. I don't have a threat in my deck that will actively pressure the opponent aside from Control Magic. On BBD's article, Paulo had a much more eloquent way of summing up my feelings on this:

I feel like the mistake people are making when they evaluate this scenario is that they're only considering the one "negative" outcome (which is when CM is the top card) and ignoring the positive outcomes (such as "CM is the third card down and you get to CM the Serra as opposed to killing it", or finding CM a turn earlier in other scenarios). People say "oh but if I kill the Serra that's still not a bad spot for me, I'm fine with that", and that is true, but if you discard Blast and steal the Serra that's also not a bad scenario for you. Yes, there are bad scenarios that can follow this up, but there are also bad scenarios that can follow not looting, and I think those are much more likely.

I'm very big on "play conservatively when you're winning and bold when you're losing", I've even written a whole article about it, but this is just not what this scenario is, this is people for some reason having an irrational fear of milling some of their good cards and ignoring every single positive of the scenario because of that fear when it's just so unlikely to matter. An example of "play conservatively when you're winning" would be if you had a better board position and both cards in your hand and you'd STILL want to Lightning Blast the Angel and keep Control Magic in hand for a possible bigger threat - this would be a conservative play, but you've admitted that this is not the play you'd make with both cards, so you do not want to be conservative. Not looting is not being conservative (if that is what you feel, you should play Lightning Blast when you have both cards in hand), it's hoping that you never have to make the decision because then you're not going to feel that you're responsible for it.

Yes, there are spots in which you wouldn't loot, but that's if you think Lightning Blast is a better card right now than Control Magic (which most people seem to agree it is not, including you) or if you have reason to believe you need both cards to win (i.e. they're at 8 and you have Bolt in hand and Lava Axe in your deck along with a bunch of lands), which this is not the case. If you believe Control Magic is better, then you should just loot.
 
On a side note, this was actually just an excellent What's the Play. Most of the time it's just navigating through a given boardstate, but I've been surprised with all of the posts and discussions on this through CFB and reddit and whatnot.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That exert though didn't actually address the issue though: what justifies the gamble? Especially in an instance where the mana on his turn will probably be spent killing the angel anyways.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I agree, thats why the loot seems greedy.

If you loot into the threat and have to discard it, its now possible to lose.

If you don't loot here, you eliminate that risk, a risk that you aren't really under any pressure to take.


But you replace it with another risk: every card you draw on a future turn is now one card behind schedule, and that ends up mattering. In particular, with both players having empty boards/hands, the value of having a given threat a turn earlier is much higher.

The fail case of Looting now (I have to bin one of my two best cards and now I might die to another threat) is much more in-your-face and emotionally resonant than the fail case of not Looting (the aggregation of the small edges you give up by not having access to each successive card on the previous turn and the way those decisions compound each other, based on counterfactuals and hidden information), but that doesn't change the calculation.
 
What I see:
(this is from your remaining library. The only time you discard Blast is if you won the loot anyway and get CM).
Cards you really want to find: 1 (CM)
Cards you would rather not discard: 2 (Sift)
Cards you are ok discarding: 12 (giant, drake, warrior, shock)
Cards that welcome discard openly: 11 (lands)

Seems pretty easy that your chance of "whiffing" on this loot is pretty freaking low. 2/26 is 7.5%, and Sift isn't the be-all-end-all of cards either, just a decent draw spell you have to wait to use (in this scenario).

Furthermore, the increase of 2 to 3 cards seen means your probability of getting far, far ahead goes from:
2 cards seen: 7.5% CM draw chance
3 cards seen: 11.5% CM drawn chance.

Now my chance of drawing the best spell in my deck are 4% higher then having to discard one of the two draw spells that aren't even the greatest, just decent.


That's my take on it. And in the heat of "I'm-in-the-game-what-do-I-do", I'd recognize that I have the answer of Lightning Blast in hand if needed. I have one card that's a lot better than that, and a bunch that don't affect my game state at all on my next turn.... loot!
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
The fail case of Looting now (I have to bin one of my two best cards and now I might die to another threat) is much more in-your-face and emotionally resonant than the fail case of not Looting (the aggregation of the small edges you give up by not having access to each successive card on the previous turn and the way those decisions compound each other, based on counterfactuals and hidden information), but that doesn't change the calculation.

That's a good way of putting it, and probably why most people's gut feeling to not loot immediately is so strong and raw: it hurts to have to move the second best card in your deck from your hand to your graveyard, but it hurts a lot less if your best card was on top of your deck when you died, especially if you don't peek.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
But you replace it with another risk: every card you draw on a future turn is now one card behind schedule, and that ends up mattering. In particular, with both players having empty boards/hands, the value of having a given threat a turn earlier is much higher.

The fail case of Looting now (I have to bin one of my two best cards and now I might die to another threat) is much more in-your-face and emotionally resonant than the fail case of not Looting (the aggregation of the small edges you give up by not having access to each successive card on the previous turn and the way those decisions compound each other, based on counterfactuals and hidden information), but that doesn't change the calculation.


Sure, but realistically you know that you're not losing by not milling at EOT. You've developed this board state to win by out top decking an opponent, and are positioned to do so due to the looter. Its not so much that you need specific draws at this point (air elemental, CM, goblin piker) you just want to have better average hits.

This is the problem I have with the statistical approach. Its not so much that cards that you could or could not draw matter, its card average quality that matters. Thats how we're going to win the game, and thats how we've played to this point, to set ourselves up to sift draws, assemble a critical mass of bad cards (the only bomb left is CM), and win from there.

Why would you suddenly go back on your own strategy, stop sifting, and start self-milling yourself: we're not really trying to dig to any individual card or powerful bomb, we've already found the individual card we need to win. All that we risk to do here, is remove an option, and by doing so, remove part of the critical mass we are trying to obtain to win.

If this were a high power format, I might agree with EOT looting, because the cards you're digging too can be so swinging. But in a low power format like this, its hard to wrap my head around. Why did we even play the game in the way we did if we're going to self mill?
 
We are just as likely to set up that critical mass by eot looting, and gain more chance of pulling way ahead. What card are you seriously concerned about milling? Hill giant? You've got basically just as much chance to gain our critical mass on our turn?

To be more clear: our deck power level is very flat, and much lower than CM, except CM.

Additional thing I thought of. The deck we are playing against has white. White, as a color, should be the best top decking color. Aka individual card power is better. Thus we should work to finish in as few turns as possible
 
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