General Fight Club

[Mondschwein]

What do people think about big cards that do not win the game at the time they hit the table but rather need some more play to them?
In particular, I'm speaking about:

vs.

The first one being something like a combo enabler, which green decks want to ramp into to swarm the board the turn after while refilling their hands.
Bounty on the other side goes the more controllish route, slowly burying the opponent under an army of (pumped up) beasts while gaining life. Especially with some lands matter support, this card may become an incredibly effective game-ender if your opponent wasn't able to kill you fast enough, but it might also be way too slow.

Did riptiders already test both of them?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Pfft off topic? You've been here long enough to know us better than that

 

[xyz]

Good timing! I was just rereading our discussion on this. Start here (http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads...ur-card-advantage-deck.1276/page-4#post-57145) and read until about here (http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads...ur-card-advantage-deck.1276/page-5#post-57529).

My feelings regarding Zendikar Resurgent have not changed. My group's experiences with it continue to be stellar. It's an exciting first pick and performs in both vanilla ramp decks and combo oriented big mana decks. Exciting is the important part here. Sure, if we were playing for money, Craterhoof Behemoth would be considered the strongest draw into a creature ramp deck. But in practice, Zendikar Resurgent is what really gets my group excited for ramp.

However, Zendikar Resurgent may not be for every group. If you've never seen it in action or don't know what to do with it, it's easy to dismiss or draft with poorly. On the other hand, Primeval Bounty is more new player friendly because it's power is more obvious and easy to wield. Also, as we pondered in the other thread, Zendikar Resurgent might actually be better at higher power levels and too clunky for less explosive cubes.

 

[ravnic]

I have zero experience with both, but if I would see them in a pack, I would be more excited to get ZR than bounty. But both seem sweet, so if you have room go ahead and try both.

I also want to give a shoutout to Genesis Wave as an exciting big green ramp card!

 

[sigh]

I think I more or less agree with xyz's past and current analyses of those cards. Right now, I think my favorite "Big green cool enchantment" is

Solid to ramp into, solid in slower, engine-y decks that value the attacker disruption. Cool card that I could definitely see running.

 

[RavebornMuse]

I feel like Zendikar Resurgent is interesting, but I think I'd probably rather just have Lifecrafter's Bestiary. I know they don't really fill the same roles exactly or signal the same decks, but my first reaction to seeing it again after all this time is "Lifecrafter's Bestiary fits so well in green-based decks, I don't even know that I'd want ZR at all in comparison".

As for the other option, I've played extensively with Primeval Bounty and found it both rather boring and a bit obnoxiously strong. I think I'd feel a lot better if it had more mana symbols in its mana cost and lost one of its triggers, but as it stands my drafters never found it very fun or exciting, it just kinda oozed too much easy value for us. YMMV though, definitely feel free to try it out if your format has things like Garruk Wildspeaker already.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I love Sandwurm Convergence. I got second in my most recent cube draft with a really janky but super cool GWuB deck that did practically nothing before turn 5 but demolished a Naya midrange deck in the first round and defeated a mono red aggro deck in the second round (2-1 because he topdecked burn the turn before I would have stabilized ), before falling to an Esper control deck. Had so much fun in those two first round though!

 

[Velrun]

I love Sandwurm Convergence. I got second in my most recent cube draft with a really janky but super cool GWuB deck that did practically nothing before turn 5 but demolished a Naya midrange deck in the first round and defeated a mono red aggro deck in the second round (2-1 because he topdecked burn the turn before I would have stabilized ), before falling to an Esper control deck. Had so much fun in those two first round though!

Was that the foreboded 30’th tournament? Sorry for being off topic (but) could you share a few thoughts on how you feel your format has developed from your first tournament to the 10’th to the 20’th to the 30’th?

 

[Peter LaCara]

Primeval Bounty is the most unassuming looking massive bomb ever. If you live to untap with it, you are going to absolutely bury your opponent in value. More than once have I heard the chorus of "Primeval Bounty, what does this do? *reads* ...I have no idea how I'm going to beat this card." I had to replace it with Sandwurm Convergence to *tone it down.*

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Was that the foreboded 30’th tournament? Sorry for being off topic (but) could you share a few thoughts on how you feel your format has developed from your first tournament to the 10’th to the 20’th to the 30’th?

30th as in 30th if the month. It was actually only the third cube session with my current cube Before that I used other color wheels, I think I switched three times before "settling" (no guarantees) on the current wheel? As for how it has evolved... Well, the cube started out with a huge Kaladesh component, and still has a lot of cards from that block, but the themes shifted around a tiny bit, mainly to help out Gruul. I think Orzhov needs my attention next, as the human sacrifice deck doesn't seem to really work.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

vs

Guttersnipe maybe signals "dorky spell pile deck" better, but man, isn't firebrand archer just a better version of guttersnipe? Does it depend on how much it'll get wrecked by its tiny little 1-toughness but? Do I just run both?

edit: I just realized arches just deals one damage. I considered just deleting the post but, eh, let them fight!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's actually a close fight. It depends on what you want to support. Red aggro will be much happier with the archer dealing some incidental damage off burn spells, whereas a true spells matter deck will gleefully pick up the Guttersnipe.

 

[Velrun]

No doubt the Archer is better in combat since it’s more likely to commit some damage before the blockers grow too big but the difference between 1 and 2 damage per spell is quite drastic.

I would say the difference between Instant/Sorcery and Non-creature is the only real upside for the Archer. Maybe it could negate some of the damage-gap if you also get to deal 1 from Sulfuric Vortex and 1 from Koth of the Hammer.

If you test them both, could you please report back with feedback and data? I would be much appreciated <3

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Guttersnipe is a proper signal that does proper damage. The only thing is it's quite restrictive to the spells deck, whilst the archer can play a role in aggro. No contest for me, guttersnipe all the way.

 

[ahadabans]

Guttersnipe is the more "combo" or archetype specific. Firebrand Archer is a value card IMO (with some late game reach). It's a goblin piker, in a color that can often burn blockers out of the way. So body is totally reasonable. And the damage trigger is going to trigger a lot and in many types of decks. And even if you only trigger once and get a single swing in with Archer (3 damage), that's still Lightning Strike and good enough for a card and 2 mana. Guttersnipe is a worse deal since it rarely swings for damage coming down a turn later and one trigger means you paid 3 mana for a shock. That's bad value, so it needs a dedicated deck.

 

[sigh]

This fight club has re-piqued my interest in this colorful blob:

Seems like it can be a cool draw unto the color pair, and isn't useless when you aren't casting spells

 

[ahadabans]

Gelectrode is a sweet card. I'd rate it very highly if it weren't a gold card. That's what I think keeps it out of a lot of lists honestly. Pingers for 3 are fine if unexciting, and this one is breakable. Not as busted as Goblin Sharpshooter, but certainly capable of shenanigans. Again, being gold is the issue.

 

[ravnic]

I actually like it more than sharpshooter even.

I can understand not running Gelectrodes in the highest of power levels, but it is among Izzets greatest creatures imo. It is obviously great in spells matter, making the archetype attractive with it's ability to kill lots of creatures with toughness 1, 2 or 3 basically for free. The damage also stacks nicely with burnspells.

But then, it is also decent in any less dedicated URx deck. I've played it before with only 6 spells or so, and it still was decent. But most izzet decks, wether control or tempo, do run quite a few spells naturally.

So, if you want a creature or two in your izzet section (imo the spells are kinda boring/replaceable with monocolored cards), and if Gelectrode hasn't to competite with Dack Faden for it's slot, give it a try.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Shit, I'm missing out! Will try to find a spot for Gelectrode in my relatively huge Izzet section.

 

[ravnic]

Good decision!

_______________


vs.

 

[sigh]

Good question... I'm running the Branchwalker right now, but that's not to say I couldn't run the Explorer. I guess I don't like that Borderland Explorer is a symettrical effect, and against the wrong deck, might give your opponent more value than you get. Branchwalker being single-sided and scrying the top really pushed me to try it.

I've got one here:

Right now I'm running Force Spike, but I'm not certain it's really seeing that much play. Are people having luck with Censor? Is Miscalc just a better bet? I really like the thought of the cycling...

 

[inscho]

I prefer Branchwalker because my cube has a heavy graveyard component, and giving an opponent an opportunity to profit off the Explorer really kills it for me. I also prefer the potential for a bigger body or card advantage as well.


Miscalculation is my favorite counterspell in cube. It's better at countering than Censor, and by the time Miscalculation becomes irrelevant as a counterspell, the additional mana to cycle is less cumbersome. Also being a colorless cycle helps in the event of mana screw.

I've never been super into Force Spike. It's very swingy for such an innocuous card, but the net feeling is pretty negative in my experience. It has so little value past the early turns. I run Force of Will in place of Force Spike, because it can wreck early while coming at a substantial cost, but remains functional as a hard counter in the late.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I'm playing both branchwalker an explorer. I actually like explorer better as the discard from hand is generally more relevant that mill the top card. Even though both players can do it, I actually like it as it reduces the number of non-games - in cube, wouldn't you rather have a proper fun game, rather than one player getting mana screwed?

I'm also running both censure and miscalculation. Miscalc is just a great counterspell, and censure for some reason is less of an emotional blow out than force spike. The ability to dig deeper into your library for win cons, answers or combos actually makes these much more viable than just counters. They're great. Also, see note re drake haven etc.

 

[sigh]

I think the Branchwalker adding a "reduce the number of non-games" effect to a format is already a good step to reduce non-games for all, as the more of this type of effect, the more that all players will likely have these effects to help them out.

I think coming close to the top of my wishlist is a colorless explore-on-a-body effect. Probably little chance that will happen at an appropriate power level, but hey, that's whay it's called a wish list.

It's funny to think about Force of Will in the same token as Force Spike, but I can see in lower-powered formats where it actually has a very legitimate downside that reduces its ceiling. Too bad they are 'spensive.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Merfolk Branchwalker has more appeal to me as it intersects with +1/+1 counter synergies and offers some card selection that green (and white) are always hungry for; I especially like that it can also benefit graveyard strategies, which run wild through my list.

I don't like Force Spike in cube, period. I'd rather have Mana Tithe if we're going to run that effect; Force Spike is just so positively miserable to me.

As for the other two, currently, I'm running Censor, and I prefer it pretty highly over Miscalculation, much to my own surprise. Now that I've removed all my 1-mana blue cantrips, the Cycling makes it highly desirable in any deck that runs blue, whereas in my old list I found many instances of Miscalculation sitting in the sideboard with the justification that the 2-mana tax with 2-mana cycling was both not reliable enough and too expensive to cycle (compared to just running a different card that more easily smooths draws to the "better" removal/counterspells/what-have-you).

As for how they play, I've also found Censor catches people far more often than I honestly expected it to in the counterspell mode. I figured it might cycle more than counter, since my format is slowed down, but actually, my players are using mana so efficiently and the CIPT lands are holding them up just enough that Censor stays competitive well into the late game as players are looking to slam their bigger spells with a tap-out or sequence a lot in one turn. I can see how Miscalculation might hit things more frequently based on your format speed/quantity & quality of mana sinks, so I wouldn't fault you for running it, but I find too many of these "tax-counters" leaves a bad taste in player's mouths, so I'm just running Censor, Supreme Will, and Logic Knot for mine currently.