Personally I'm not a fan of green as the base color for aggressive decks. It does offer some cool cards to play around with like Vengevine and Rishkar, Peema Renegade, but I just think there are so many more interesting directions to go into if you start off with a W/B/R base and branch outwards. Green's biggest advantage over other colors, assuming you don't run degenerate low-cost ramp, is the ability to speed up their game and transition quicker to the mid/late game than other archetypes. If you devote too many slots early in the curve for green based decks for aggro beaters, while already using up some of them for early dorks, it kind of stymies what you get to work with in most cubes. I just save most of the pure aggro cards and 2/1 bodies for colors that can't do interesting things earlier in the curve.
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
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Dom Harvey
Contributor
Best green aggro card:
Green aggro is great but the whole point is that you don't have to (or get to) run many 1-drops*. Your 2-drops are strong enough (especially the gold ones) that you don't need to curve out perfectly to present a good offense.
*I've seen people run dubs Experiment One which creates some fun drafting/sequencing choices and has synergies with a bunch of stuff
Green aggro is great but the whole point is that you don't have to (or get to) run many 1-drops*. Your 2-drops are strong enough (especially the gold ones) that you don't need to curve out perfectly to present a good offense.
*I've seen people run dubs Experiment One which creates some fun drafting/sequencing choices and has synergies with a bunch of stuff
Green aggro doesn't mean you can't play dorks and support a strong ramp theme in green though. I get that it's not everyone's favorite, but if you get to make it playable, it doesn't hurt anything in your cube. It actually makes some cards more playable, for example Mongrel/Constrictor would both be more fringe without a green aggro theme imo.
Cycling alone makes it better than a basic land imo, if I were low on playables in a G/X graveyard deck, I would play it just as a colorless cantrip that puts a creature in my 'yard
But seriously, as far as I remember, the drawback came up twice in over 2 years of this being in my cube, and one time the aggro deck still won thorugh it, which was sweet. I don't know, at least I like it more than Pouncing Jaguar and Basking Rootwalla.
I agree that my 2's and especially my 3's could be a little beefier though. One problem is that green does a lot of stuff, and tokens, ramp and dredge need their slots too.
Borderland Explorer does look like it has potential. Pretty sweet with Rootwalla FWIW.
I'm willing to concede most of the argument against green aggro. There are definitely more options now and at the right power level you can make it work. Where I won't budge though is Wild Dogs. It's a 2/1 beater that your opponents sometimes wind up with. Cycling doesn't make up for that drawback. Card is just so so bad. I would take a basic land in a pack over Wild Dogs even if I were in Gx.
Cycling alone makes it better than a basic land imo, if I were low on playables in a G/X graveyard deck, I would play it just as a colorless cantrip that puts a creature in my 'yard
But seriously, as far as I remember, the drawback came up twice in over 2 years of this being in my cube, and one time the aggro deck still won thorugh it, which was sweet. I don't know, at least I like it more than Pouncing Jaguar and Basking Rootwalla.
CoCo is an interesting card. During it's hype though, it was a little costy for my taste to have it tested yet.
I agree that my 2's and especially my 3's could be a little beefier though. One problem is that green does a lot of stuff, and tokens, ramp and dredge need their slots too.
You certainly can run green cards that approximate an aggro section, and at this point nothing seems to change your mind anyway. What it all comes down to is opportunity cost. You list three other themes you want green to be doing (and "does a lot of stuff"), and lament finding space for them, and you want your fourth theme to be a fourth color of vanilla aggro?
The way you are portraing this, you seem just as biased as I am.
And yes, I want green to do all this, I want every color to do as many things as I can support. Nothing sounds more boring to me to have every green deck to be ramp/midrange.
So, no, you guys wont convince me to cut green aggro support entirely. But I still took something from this discussion, even though it's just a nice 2-drop I didn't know about in Borderland Explorer
And yes, I want green to do all this, I want every color to do as many things as I can support. Nothing sounds more boring to me to have every green deck to be ramp/midrange.
So, no, you guys wont convince me to cut green aggro support entirely. But I still took something from this discussion, even though it's just a nice 2-drop I didn't know about in Borderland Explorer
I love green aggro.
I support aggro and control in all colors, since I don't support synergy archetypes in the main cube module it's the easiest way to make sure there are at least 20 different decks to draft (10 aggro two-color decks, 10 control two-color decks).
Green aggro manifests as:
WG - Most vanilla aggro combination, play dudes, attack with them. You want efficient creatures to get in damage early, and green helps with that offering oversized/painful to block threats. White is necessary for reach and protection of tempo. This is the best archetype for going wide, with overruns on green and tokens/anthems on white.
UG - A tempo deck, green contributes with efficient beaters and pump, blue with fliers. Blue protects them with counterspells and bounce, green protects them with hexproof. This deck really wants the green flash creatures/werewolves and instants, as keeping mana up for counterspells/protection is not a problem when you are playing on the opponent's end step. This is the hardest green aggro deck to draft, but my favorite one to play.
BG - This is the most versatile aggro color pair, it can range from 14 land hyper-aggro with the curve ending at 3 mana to aggro-midrange full of value, with aggro-control using discard and disruption on a different axis. Hyper aggro works because these are the colors with the best stats. Aggro-midrange taps on the value cards in both colors, it's easy to get a deck that is on the aggressive side and at the same time has many two-for-ones (this is the version in the example deck). Aggro-control is like the UG version, with green providing beef and black providing evasion, but black uses removal and discard to protect the offensive instead of bounce and counterspells.
RG - Red takes aggro to a different direction. Burn as reach changes the game completely - green pumps become better because the option of sending them to the opponent's face is more attractive when they are dead at 6 life. Burn as creature removal means creatures will get in for damage more often, increasing the value of pump, damage triggers and high power/low toughness. Green offers card draw/advantage that red can turn into fire and brimstone. It's a much more resilient deck than mono red.
I support aggro and control in all colors, since I don't support synergy archetypes in the main cube module it's the easiest way to make sure there are at least 20 different decks to draft (10 aggro two-color decks, 10 control two-color decks).
Green aggro manifests as:
WG - Most vanilla aggro combination, play dudes, attack with them. You want efficient creatures to get in damage early, and green helps with that offering oversized/painful to block threats. White is necessary for reach and protection of tempo. This is the best archetype for going wide, with overruns on green and tokens/anthems on white.WG Aggro - japahn's draft of japahn's Cube on 26/10/2017 from CubeTutor.com
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UG - A tempo deck, green contributes with efficient beaters and pump, blue with fliers. Blue protects them with counterspells and bounce, green protects them with hexproof. This deck really wants the green flash creatures/werewolves and instants, as keeping mana up for counterspells/protection is not a problem when you are playing on the opponent's end step. This is the hardest green aggro deck to draft, but my favorite one to play.UG Aggro-Control - japahn's draft of japahn's Cube on 26/10/2017 from CubeTutor.com
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BG - This is the most versatile aggro color pair, it can range from 14 land hyper-aggro with the curve ending at 3 mana to aggro-midrange full of value, with aggro-control using discard and disruption on a different axis. Hyper aggro works because these are the colors with the best stats. Aggro-midrange taps on the value cards in both colors, it's easy to get a deck that is on the aggressive side and at the same time has many two-for-ones (this is the version in the example deck). Aggro-control is like the UG version, with green providing beef and black providing evasion, but black uses removal and discard to protect the offensive instead of bounce and counterspells.BG Aggro - japahn's draft of japahn's Cube on 26/10/2017 from CubeTutor.com
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RG - Red takes aggro to a different direction. Burn as reach changes the game completely - green pumps become better because the option of sending them to the opponent's face is more attractive when they are dead at 6 life. Burn as creature removal means creatures will get in for damage more often, increasing the value of pump, damage triggers and high power/low toughness. Green offers card draw/advantage that red can turn into fire and brimstone. It's a much more resilient deck than mono red.RG Aggro - japahn's draft of japahn's Cube on 26/10/2017 from CubeTutor.com
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I appreciate the post, but the first thing everyone is going to do is scroll their eyes down the 1 drop line, and notice how light the decks are on 1 drops to begin with, and how jungle lion looks pretty poor in all of those lists. These all look like turn 2 aggro decks, and turn 2 aggro decks don't value 2/1 aggro beaters very highly by design. This is one of the benefits of turn 2 aggro design, you kind of dodge this particular misdraft completly.
Two of the lists are also basically mono-decks splashing a second color, which goes back to what i've been saying about many of these green aggro decks essentially being misdrafts, where you're maybe providing something like kessig prowler to ease up the pressure when they find themselves coming up short on 1 drops, since they were overly dependent on red ones without knowing it/ someone was competing for those cards in the draft, and they now need to pickup a few extra one drops to make up the difference.
Two of the lists are also basically mono-decks splashing a second color, which goes back to what i've been saying about many of these green aggro decks essentially being misdrafts, where you're maybe providing something like kessig prowler to ease up the pressure when they find themselves coming up short on 1 drops, since they were overly dependent on red ones without knowing it/ someone was competing for those cards in the draft, and they now need to pickup a few extra one drops to make up the difference.
Two decks are majorly of the other color, but 7 or 8 cards are not a splash. I basically force drafted these archetypes now in Cube Tutor just to get a sample list from my updated pool.
But you're right, I don't include many aggro 1-drops because they are boring and not very versatile. Some amount of them is good to reward decks for being proactive from turn 1, and Kessig Prowler, acting as a mana sink on the late game, is one of the best ones.
But you're right, I don't include many aggro 1-drops because they are boring and not very versatile. Some amount of them is good to reward decks for being proactive from turn 1, and Kessig Prowler, acting as a mana sink on the late game, is one of the best ones.
Okay, because it is fun I will post an example deck too. Here is actually a pretty good example why I love green as an aggro color in my list. Yes, it doesn't contribute as much as red does, but I would not like to miss these green cards here. It delivers combat tricks, which are great in aggro either to push through damage or kill big blockers, while also being great with evasion. No card closes out games like Might of Oaks does. Deadbridge Goliath is also a great curve-topper, it hits super hard, and when opponent manages it to reach the midgame, scavenge 5 on Spined Thopter seems like a great plan B with zero opportunity cost. Gruul Guildmage makes blocking super difficult and with Naturalize and Wickerbough Elder I have two great answers against Propaganda and friends. And of course here are good 1's and 2's in green as well.
Gruul Aggro from CubeTutor.com
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vs. Which card is more interesting, and how does power level compare? Both obviously are super low power, but in a format where 1/1s are actually relevant, can these be viable? As of now I like Selfless Cathar; it seems to offer more decisions and actually activate a lot more. However, first strike is a legitimate boon for Keeper in a format with lots of 2/1s. And games should run long enough that it should be able to threaten a lethal swing, especially in token decks. (1st post, been lurking for months.)
Welcome to posting! I think of those two, I like the Cathar a little more. Another option that I've seen do well, in a limited setting at least, is
Sticking around after the effect is solid, enabling multiple turns of pumping, or multiple pumps at late game. Is this in consideration for one of the two cubes in your sig?
Sticking around after the effect is solid, enabling multiple turns of pumping, or multiple pumps at late game. Is this in consideration for one of the two cubes in your sig?
I'm considering them for both, actually. That's a neat card, I think I may use it instead! Being able to attack after pumping seems clutch.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
8 mana is a metric fuckton, even in slow formats. You need to put some serious pressure on your drafters to make 7 realistic, let alone 8.
What are people putting into their Gruul and Selesnya Gold sections? To me these cards always pulled me a bit into an aggro green deck. It's a little weird to put green aggro support into the gold section without at least a token amount of support in green itself.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
These all do lean pretty midrange other than rampager, but GW just isn't a color pair with an itentity for me yet, so I'm kinda hedging my bets.
I was running knight of the reliquary for the longest time, but I wanted something a little more aggro specific, so I'd been throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks. Advent of the Wurm is up this week, we'll see how that goes
Still pretty midrangey tho.
Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist is probably too effective
People still Bloodbraiding?
It's a terridfic card, albeit a bit bland if you want decks-not-cards maybe.
I'll never stop.
E: I have a big GW section. Gold cards are the strength of the colour pair and I provide good fixing and a higher density of gold cards overall. I also have signposts for GW as my two most human-centric colours.
Mind Shrieker is a very cool mana sink that is a weapon in the right deck.
The other too are boring and suck.
The other too are boring and suck.
I tried it for a short time in my old heavy midrange list. It's pretty broken. Glare of Subdual is in a color combination that has absolutely no trouble assembling dudes. That's the token combination in many cubes and even without tokens it's child's play really. So in my experience running Glare mandates a critical mass of disenchant effects in your list. You don't have enough of those and this card just wins the game on resolution as your opponent can never attack or block again. Opposition is obviously a more oppressive card since it stops you playing Magic all together, but I don't think the gap is nearly as high as people make it out to be. Again, GW can flood the board with creatures without even trying and all their dudes are efficient so there's going to be a real clock. Games with glare don't drag unless it's in a Bant shell. Glare comes down and if your opponent's deck is creature centric (how many aren't in a midrange cube?) and they don't have a disenchant, the game pretty much ends.
Opposition's ceiling is obviously a lot higher seeing as how it just locks you out of a game completely, but in my experience it's often harder to break due to the mana cost and scarcity of cheap blue creatures and/or creatures that don't hit like a limp noodle. YMMV clearly but I wouldn't recommend running either in a lower powered list personally.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I really enjoy mindshrieker, and feel it makes fun games.
My only caveat is that if you run it, remember its a very RNG based card. I think its the right kind of rng, but if you have a player base that hates randomness, it might not be a good selection.
Either your games play out very differently than mine, in cube and retail limited, or you guys just dislike aggressive decks. Mistral Charger saw play even in powered cubes not long ago. In my lower powered list I'm still running it (as well as Wings of the Guard), and blue getting slightly worse versions seems adequact. W/U Skies is a classic archetype I like to support a bit. A good tempo deck.
I do consider Mindshrieker though, because I think is is more interesting and does work with selfmill and as a control finisher. I just asked because I dislike the random factor Grillo mentioned.
Thanks ahadabans for your execution on Glare, I think I was right to not play it in my cube.