180 cards, 3 colour cube.
- Thread starter Jonas
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Its hard to say, because I've not played with the card myself.
However, I think it has that potential, even as a singleton. If you draw it, your odds of winning should go way up as it powers so many interactions: madness, dredge, graveyard count cards, delve--its an engine that does everything you could ever want.
However, I think it has that potential, even as a singleton. If you draw it, your odds of winning should go way up as it powers so many interactions: madness, dredge, graveyard count cards, delve--its an engine that does everything you could ever want.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, when we do 3-4 player multiplayer, with cards like bonehoard that check all graveyards, its not unusual to have it be 12/12 or larger.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Hah! This is the first cube ever where I'm not saddened by the inclusion of Sword of War and Peace 
Had a chance to draft the cube yet Jonas?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I did 5 packs of 9 cards, assuming 4 total players (3 bots).
Its pretty hard for me to give feedback, since the cube is so different from anything else I've drafted. Even the graveyard elements are pretty different from my own cube, so its hard for me to say if this would be a good deck or not, or if I even built it correctly. I went with an early vengevine, and I feel like this didn't turn out to be a great vengevine deck, but I have no idea if that is true or not. A few thoughts as a result:
1. I do feel like like the deck is more of a collection of good cards. In normal cube, we try to steer away from the 5 color good stuff decks, because after a while they all start to bleed together and feel the same, and I feel like this ended up being a 3 color good stuff deck, when I wanted to draft a strong theme.
2. One of the things with a lot of graveyard strategies, is that they seek to provide an alternate form of card advantage. Unfortunatly, they are inheriently less efficent than raw draw effects. Strong draw spells like deep analysis, frantic search, compulsive research, and thirst for knowledge, can undermine the push towards using the graveyard as a source of card advantage. I felt that tension during the draft, and I think there is a risk that one form of card advantage may end up being strictly better than the other, from a min/max point of view. Its difficult to say without actually playing the decks, of course, but I would keep an eye on it.
3. My instinct was that the graveyard hate was very strong. Ooze seems like a slam first pick and some of the other cards seemed like they could just hose another graveyard deck after a few turns of being in play (necrogenesis). I found myself really tempted to just draft all of the hate cards, and built a deck around it, which seems really lame. Some more subtle hate, like pacifism effects (oubliette), I think might be healthy, or something like stab wound. To put this in perspective, over here, memory's journey and krosan reclamation are absolute beatings as far as graveyard hate goes: every control deck wants to run at least one copy of them, and its worth splashing green to be able to flashback journey. Necrogensis (for example) would just be insane here, and effectively beat a lot of decks on its own. Ooze would basically be a game ending removal check.
4. Cards like damnation seems pretty bad here. Removal that dosen't exile or pacify against a graveyard strategy often times ends up being either de facto bounce, a fueling something far nastier. Since you are in the BUG colors, there really arn't any matchups where those removal spells would shine. I'm not sure if that is good or bad for the cube.
Wish I could be more helpful, but hope those thoughts are at least somewhat helpful.
GrilloParlante's draft of 180 BUG on 23/10/2014 from CubeTutor.com
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Its pretty hard for me to give feedback, since the cube is so different from anything else I've drafted. Even the graveyard elements are pretty different from my own cube, so its hard for me to say if this would be a good deck or not, or if I even built it correctly. I went with an early vengevine, and I feel like this didn't turn out to be a great vengevine deck, but I have no idea if that is true or not. A few thoughts as a result:
1. I do feel like like the deck is more of a collection of good cards. In normal cube, we try to steer away from the 5 color good stuff decks, because after a while they all start to bleed together and feel the same, and I feel like this ended up being a 3 color good stuff deck, when I wanted to draft a strong theme.
2. One of the things with a lot of graveyard strategies, is that they seek to provide an alternate form of card advantage. Unfortunatly, they are inheriently less efficent than raw draw effects. Strong draw spells like deep analysis, frantic search, compulsive research, and thirst for knowledge, can undermine the push towards using the graveyard as a source of card advantage. I felt that tension during the draft, and I think there is a risk that one form of card advantage may end up being strictly better than the other, from a min/max point of view. Its difficult to say without actually playing the decks, of course, but I would keep an eye on it.
3. My instinct was that the graveyard hate was very strong. Ooze seems like a slam first pick and some of the other cards seemed like they could just hose another graveyard deck after a few turns of being in play (necrogenesis). I found myself really tempted to just draft all of the hate cards, and built a deck around it, which seems really lame. Some more subtle hate, like pacifism effects (oubliette), I think might be healthy, or something like stab wound. To put this in perspective, over here, memory's journey and krosan reclamation are absolute beatings as far as graveyard hate goes: every control deck wants to run at least one copy of them, and its worth splashing green to be able to flashback journey. Necrogensis (for example) would just be insane here, and effectively beat a lot of decks on its own. Ooze would basically be a game ending removal check.
4. Cards like damnation seems pretty bad here. Removal that dosen't exile or pacify against a graveyard strategy often times ends up being either de facto bounce, a fueling something far nastier. Since you are in the BUG colors, there really arn't any matchups where those removal spells would shine. I'm not sure if that is good or bad for the cube.
Wish I could be more helpful, but hope those thoughts are at least somewhat helpful.
It's very useful feedback, about some stuff I haven't thought about, thank you very much!
One thing that seems hard to balance about your first point, is that if I make four separate themes, they will probably be so strong and visible that there will only be the same four decks every time. I've tried to steer away from that and have most of the cards having some sort of synergy with each other, which means that good stuff decks are viable, but will hopefully give more variation in the decks on the other hand, since most of the cards can go into any deck.
One thing that seems hard to balance about your first point, is that if I make four separate themes, they will probably be so strong and visible that there will only be the same four decks every time. I've tried to steer away from that and have most of the cards having some sort of synergy with each other, which means that good stuff decks are viable, but will hopefully give more variation in the decks on the other hand, since most of the cards can go into any deck.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Here is another one:
I felt like this was a bit more focused: I tried to be the gy hate deck. I have some bounce for removal, madness interactions, and a lot of shifting to try to find ooze and deathrite. Wonder is so that I can fly over with a giant ooze or lord of extinction.
I think gaea's blessing is probably pretty bad for most of the decks in the format, and should be a krosan reclamation. I'm also not sure there is enough knight density for haakon.
GrilloParlante's draft of 180 BUG on 24/10/2014 from CubeTutor.com
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I felt like this was a bit more focused: I tried to be the gy hate deck. I have some bounce for removal, madness interactions, and a lot of shifting to try to find ooze and deathrite. Wonder is so that I can fly over with a giant ooze or lord of extinction.
I think gaea's blessing is probably pretty bad for most of the decks in the format, and should be a krosan reclamation. I'm also not sure there is enough knight density for haakon.
Hmm, it looks like I've been cutting knights right and left, and only have three left besides Haakon. He is a self recurring threat though, along with only Gravecrawler and Bloodsoaked Champion. I agree that the knight density is low, but since there is no real reanimation, I think that he still can play that role?
I think your gy hate deck looks quite fair, aside from scooze, which I will of course have to look out for, along with necrogenesis.
What do you think about the triple fetches, too many, or seems fair? It should be the same density as double fetches in a 360 (kinda), and it does seem like you didn't get to take too many of them?
I really appreciate the feedback, and will think about all the points made.
I think your gy hate deck looks quite fair, aside from scooze, which I will of course have to look out for, along with necrogenesis.
What do you think about the triple fetches, too many, or seems fair? It should be the same density as double fetches in a 360 (kinda), and it does seem like you didn't get to take too many of them?
I really appreciate the feedback, and will think about all the points made.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The fetches seem fine. I felt like the cube was in a good spot as far as mana fixing was concerned; you would only be punished if you completly ignored mana fixing in the draft.
Those are fair points with haakon. I guess my inner johnny just wanted to use him as an engine, and I forgot he could recur himself.
Those are fair points with haakon. I guess my inner johnny just wanted to use him as an engine, and I forgot he could recur himself.
UB Aggro from CubeTutor.com
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Did a draft as well. I felt like there were some themes that kept me from dipping into green and focus on picking certain cards of over others. Its a pretty hard cube to evaluate though, without having played it.
Edit: Totally didnt realise how hideous that curve looked.
Still looks pretty interesting. I appreciate the feeback!
I made a quick deck myself, with a green base. Could probably do some better choices on what ends up in my final 40, but anyway.
I made a quick deck myself, with a green base. Could probably do some better choices on what ends up in my final 40, but anyway.
snorful's draft of 180 BUG on 24/10/2014 from CubeTutor.com
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That deck looks really sweet; delving with vizier in play must have been filthy.