Innistrad Themed Cube: 360 Unpowered
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Hi guys. Been a long time since i did anything with my cube and i like the way it's developed since last i saw it.
I got back into it with the new set since i saw one card that would be a straight upgrade on one we run now, namely Mardu woe-reaper instead of Elite vanguard. It has the same body, cost and almost the same creature type yet still does something interesting and relevant when entering the battlefield. It got me thinking though since we have a few incidental warriors allready, how much would it take to support a warrior subtheme? I got to looking and found quite a few workable replacements for current cards that are allso warriors. So why would anywone bother about the warrior creature type? So far i have two answers for that:
Bramblewood paragon This is basically a straight lord for warriors that also grant trample. I can see this being useful in non warrior decks too since the sencond ability is useful for any deck with +1/+1 counters.
Obsidian Battleaxe: getting a free trusty machete equip and haste is not something to scoff at since most of the warriors are aggressive to begin with. Not sure how prohibitive the 3 cc is but it's worth a try.
Here are all my changes this time:
I have been trying to work out if a warrior sub-theme could be supported and I think i have found workable warrior replacements for cards. Baically i need to have critical mass of warriors before cards like bramblewood paragon and obsidian battle axe earn a place in the cube.
Elite Vanguard > Mardu Woe-Reaper
Keldon Vandals > Manic Vandal (I run the drudge mage in the slot manic vandals used to fill. I also prefer to have the modern frame on all cards in the cube.)
Colossal Might> Tattermunge Maniac
Reclamation Sage> Viridian Zealot (Not as podable but can fullfill the same role if really needed.)
Dragon-Style Twins > Furystoke Giant(this if anything is a red build-around =)
Viridian Emissary >Bramblewood Paragon
Ashnod's Altar >Obsidian Battle-Axe
Ambush Viper > Gilt-Leaf Ambush (Good with the giant and paragon, cares about top of library and could potentially be a 2-1 =)
Goblin Sharpshooter > Jeska, Warrior adept while goblin sharpshooter was good at what he did he only did one thing, Jeska is more versitile and has two useful creature types (human warrior)
Call of the herd > Hunting Triad While it isn't capable of putting the same amount of power on the board on its own it can be both a token producer and a combat trick. Also since the tokens produced are warriors it gets really good with paragon in play.
Vital Splicer > Ambassador oak Basically the same thing except they are warriors.
I got back into it with the new set since i saw one card that would be a straight upgrade on one we run now, namely Mardu woe-reaper instead of Elite vanguard. It has the same body, cost and almost the same creature type yet still does something interesting and relevant when entering the battlefield. It got me thinking though since we have a few incidental warriors allready, how much would it take to support a warrior subtheme? I got to looking and found quite a few workable replacements for current cards that are allso warriors. So why would anywone bother about the warrior creature type? So far i have two answers for that:
Bramblewood paragon This is basically a straight lord for warriors that also grant trample. I can see this being useful in non warrior decks too since the sencond ability is useful for any deck with +1/+1 counters.
Obsidian Battleaxe: getting a free trusty machete equip and haste is not something to scoff at since most of the warriors are aggressive to begin with. Not sure how prohibitive the 3 cc is but it's worth a try.
Here are all my changes this time:
I have been trying to work out if a warrior sub-theme could be supported and I think i have found workable warrior replacements for cards. Baically i need to have critical mass of warriors before cards like bramblewood paragon and obsidian battle axe earn a place in the cube.
Elite Vanguard > Mardu Woe-Reaper
Keldon Vandals > Manic Vandal (I run the drudge mage in the slot manic vandals used to fill. I also prefer to have the modern frame on all cards in the cube.)
Colossal Might> Tattermunge Maniac
Reclamation Sage> Viridian Zealot (Not as podable but can fullfill the same role if really needed.)
Dragon-Style Twins > Furystoke Giant(this if anything is a red build-around =)
Viridian Emissary >Bramblewood Paragon
Ashnod's Altar >Obsidian Battle-Axe
Ambush Viper > Gilt-Leaf Ambush (Good with the giant and paragon, cares about top of library and could potentially be a 2-1 =)
Goblin Sharpshooter > Jeska, Warrior adept while goblin sharpshooter was good at what he did he only did one thing, Jeska is more versitile and has two useful creature types (human warrior)
Call of the herd > Hunting Triad While it isn't capable of putting the same amount of power on the board on its own it can be both a token producer and a combat trick. Also since the tokens produced are warriors it gets really good with paragon in play.
Vital Splicer > Ambassador oak Basically the same thing except they are warriors.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Hey, its good to see you.
As always, its nice to see you taking things in a different direction. However, I think there are probably some stronger choices if you want to go with a warrior sub-theme.
Overall, I think woe-reaper is a solid choice, while the manic vandal and tattermunge maniac swaps are fine. Furystroke could be fine, and I would be curious to hear how he works out.
The rest of them seem a bit narrow, or generally downgrades of existing cards. Viridian Zealot fits in less decks than reclamation sage due to the CC, which is an issue since that effect is already a bit thin, and even more so in your version of the cube.
Sharpshooter I think is way better than you are giving it credit for. Its absolutely insane in any swarm or sacrifice strategy, and is perfectly capable of being a one-sided, recurring, wrath of god. Its also keeps in check opposing token strategies; completely nerfing them until something kills the sharpshooter, and helping games from getting bogged down. Jeska just seems like a more narrow card, with much less play to it.
Ambush Viper I also wouldn't cut, because its just such a solid role player. Its essentially a 2cc removal spell that adds creature count to the yard, which is exactly what those BUG decks want.
The token makers are a bit underpowered and overcosted. Its also worth mentioning that vital splicer is a much more interesting card than ambassador oak. A 3/3 regenerating blocker is something BUG decks are in the market for, it synergizes with pod, and it also creates a removal puzzle that fits in with the cube's 1 damage spells and effects.
Call of the herd I also think is a hard cut (though not impossible), but its overall better than hunting triad. Call fits in with a BUG decks self-mill strategy, is a creature-spell for delver, comes down on a critical turn, makes a competent blocker(s), and is a win-condition in its own right.
Axe is almost there, but the problem is that outside of the warrior strategy its pretty much just unplayable due to the
equip cost. Paragon has similar problems with just being a bear. You would really want to have an existing + + counters theme to weave things together, as is, its a bit poisionous.
The thing with tribal, is that the cards need to be playable on their own, and the benefits have to be incidental. Breaking singleton on mardu woe-reaper or rush of battle would be a better approach, as those are already cards within the cube's existing framework, but just incidentally benefit warriors. To create density you could run more blood-soaked champion, seeker of the way or add sultai scavenger, which is a warrior, but also benefits from the self-mill cards due to delve.
If you get enough density (and it will take some density), than maybe look at chief of the edge/chief of the scale, and have that be the flavor of a B/W color pair. The really tricky thing though is that any buff to a warrior tribe, is probably going to end up being a buff to humans as well, an archetype which is already very powerful.
As always, its nice to see you taking things in a different direction. However, I think there are probably some stronger choices if you want to go with a warrior sub-theme.
Overall, I think woe-reaper is a solid choice, while the manic vandal and tattermunge maniac swaps are fine. Furystroke could be fine, and I would be curious to hear how he works out.
The rest of them seem a bit narrow, or generally downgrades of existing cards. Viridian Zealot fits in less decks than reclamation sage due to the CC, which is an issue since that effect is already a bit thin, and even more so in your version of the cube.
Sharpshooter I think is way better than you are giving it credit for. Its absolutely insane in any swarm or sacrifice strategy, and is perfectly capable of being a one-sided, recurring, wrath of god. Its also keeps in check opposing token strategies; completely nerfing them until something kills the sharpshooter, and helping games from getting bogged down. Jeska just seems like a more narrow card, with much less play to it.
Ambush Viper I also wouldn't cut, because its just such a solid role player. Its essentially a 2cc removal spell that adds creature count to the yard, which is exactly what those BUG decks want.
The token makers are a bit underpowered and overcosted. Its also worth mentioning that vital splicer is a much more interesting card than ambassador oak. A 3/3 regenerating blocker is something BUG decks are in the market for, it synergizes with pod, and it also creates a removal puzzle that fits in with the cube's 1 damage spells and effects.
Call of the herd I also think is a hard cut (though not impossible), but its overall better than hunting triad. Call fits in with a BUG decks self-mill strategy, is a creature-spell for delver, comes down on a critical turn, makes a competent blocker(s), and is a win-condition in its own right.
Axe is almost there, but the problem is that outside of the warrior strategy its pretty much just unplayable due to the
equip cost. Paragon has similar problems with just being a bear. You would really want to have an existing + + counters theme to weave things together, as is, its a bit poisionous.The thing with tribal, is that the cards need to be playable on their own, and the benefits have to be incidental. Breaking singleton on mardu woe-reaper or rush of battle would be a better approach, as those are already cards within the cube's existing framework, but just incidentally benefit warriors. To create density you could run more blood-soaked champion, seeker of the way or add sultai scavenger, which is a warrior, but also benefits from the self-mill cards due to delve.
If you get enough density (and it will take some density), than maybe look at chief of the edge/chief of the scale, and have that be the flavor of a B/W color pair. The really tricky thing though is that any buff to a warrior tribe, is probably going to end up being a buff to humans as well, an archetype which is already very powerful.
Thanks for the comments, i can always rely on you for thoughtful and well reasoned card choice discussions. =)
After a bit of thought i can agree with what you are saying about the oak and the triad, they simply may not be strong enough on their own. I can also see your point about the sharpshooter but still not convinced about that the viper is strictly better than the gilt leaf ambush. Surely there are times where two bodies are much better than the one? It is also kind of neat how it cares about top of library while fulfilling a similar role.
As you guessed i made the choices i did with the strength of the human tribe in mind, they are simply strong enough and don't need any more help. This is why i tried to make warriors a red green thing rather than a black white one. I still think I can be done and i have found a couple of new candidates that not only boost warriors but also other small tribes without benefiting humans.
Vital Splicer > Wolfir Avenger - A warrior that also benefits from the mayor in it's flipped form. Still a regenerating 3/3 and even though it doesn't add any extra value for pod i really don't think that should be the final consideration in evaluating cards, especially now that it only is a singleton. Could compensate a bit for the lack of Ambush viper if i choose to stick with the Gilt-leaf ambush.
Mindless automaton > Moriok Replica - still an artifact card draw creature but a warrior as well. Sure it's not a discard outlet but it's also a bit cheaper.
Prophetic Flamespeaker> Markov Blademaster- Not entirely sure about this one. I wish it had haste or flying or something evasive but since I envision the warrior tribe as RG instead of BW and RG is the best color pair for granting trample and pump it's not as bad as it looks I think. If you can connect with it once it also becomes a much bigger (snowballing) beast than the flamespeaker. How relevant has the card draw been for your playgroup?
Another question, How often does Predator Ooze see play? I am thinking of perhaps that slot would be more served by Yasova Dragonclaw. Besides being a warrior this deck already have a theme of threaten effects and she seems to fit right in. Sure it's a small boost to humans but if they loose the flamespeaker, townsfolk (to hedge mage) and flamespeaker perhaps it's ok.
After a bit of thought i can agree with what you are saying about the oak and the triad, they simply may not be strong enough on their own. I can also see your point about the sharpshooter but still not convinced about that the viper is strictly better than the gilt leaf ambush. Surely there are times where two bodies are much better than the one? It is also kind of neat how it cares about top of library while fulfilling a similar role.
As you guessed i made the choices i did with the strength of the human tribe in mind, they are simply strong enough and don't need any more help. This is why i tried to make warriors a red green thing rather than a black white one. I still think I can be done and i have found a couple of new candidates that not only boost warriors but also other small tribes without benefiting humans.
Vital Splicer > Wolfir Avenger - A warrior that also benefits from the mayor in it's flipped form. Still a regenerating 3/3 and even though it doesn't add any extra value for pod i really don't think that should be the final consideration in evaluating cards, especially now that it only is a singleton. Could compensate a bit for the lack of Ambush viper if i choose to stick with the Gilt-leaf ambush.
Mindless automaton > Moriok Replica - still an artifact card draw creature but a warrior as well. Sure it's not a discard outlet but it's also a bit cheaper.
Prophetic Flamespeaker> Markov Blademaster- Not entirely sure about this one. I wish it had haste or flying or something evasive but since I envision the warrior tribe as RG instead of BW and RG is the best color pair for granting trample and pump it's not as bad as it looks I think. If you can connect with it once it also becomes a much bigger (snowballing) beast than the flamespeaker. How relevant has the card draw been for your playgroup?
Another question, How often does Predator Ooze see play? I am thinking of perhaps that slot would be more served by Yasova Dragonclaw. Besides being a warrior this deck already have a theme of threaten effects and she seems to fit right in. Sure it's a small boost to humans but if they loose the flamespeaker, townsfolk (to hedge mage) and flamespeaker perhaps it's ok.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think you'll find that if you play gilt leaf ambush, thats its going to be pretty bad. Two 1/1 bodies at 3 mana is a really bad rate of return, even at instant speed with occastional death touch. The only reason that gather the townsfolk is playable is because of champion of the parish and some of the sacrifice synergies that use human tokens as food. Ambush viper is going to be solid and consistent all the time, a turn earlier. Gilt leaf ambush will sometimes be similar, a turn later, and not feed graveyard synergies.
The fixing in the cube is really good. I've made three color decks running predator ooze that could get it out on curve, and 4 color decks aren't difficult to draft.
Oooze sees a good amount of play, and the game states that it creates are always interesting. Yasova is a fine card to try though.
Wolfir is probably fine, though I don't like cutting one of the 4 drops for it. For some reason flamespeaker has not been a high pick here, so blademaster might not be playable.
The automaton (which I do not have in my version of the list) is quite a bit better than replica, because it acts as a colorless discard outlet.
I think wolfir avenger is more the direction you want to go than gilf leaf ambush or moriok replica. Your main danger is running downgrades of existing cards that are overly narrow to feed a theme whose payoff cards are weaker than other strategies.
The fixing in the cube is really good. I've made three color decks running predator ooze that could get it out on curve, and 4 color decks aren't difficult to draft.
Oooze sees a good amount of play, and the game states that it creates are always interesting. Yasova is a fine card to try though.
Wolfir is probably fine, though I don't like cutting one of the 4 drops for it. For some reason flamespeaker has not been a high pick here, so blademaster might not be playable.
The automaton (which I do not have in my version of the list) is quite a bit better than replica, because it acts as a colorless discard outlet.
I think wolfir avenger is more the direction you want to go than gilf leaf ambush or moriok replica. Your main danger is running downgrades of existing cards that are overly narrow to feed a theme whose payoff cards are weaker than other strategies.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Things have been getting a little spikey over here. The day the big aggro three have long feared has finally come...and some innocent cards that have been underperforming got caught in the cross fire:
Out
In
The spirit theme hasn't really panned out over the long term: too narrow. Angel gets played, but its always been a 4/4 flyer for 5, which won't cut it here. Flamespeaker has been a huge disappointment, and I'm not sure why. I hate fettergeist, as its a card that punishes you for casting spells. Hada spy patrol is too expensive. Elves was just the only green card I could justify cutting.
The 3rd champion could stay, I'm just getting championed out. The delver decks have been getting absurd now that everyone has realized how easy it is to break with vault.
I added (back) a second waif in red, because waif does everything you need (punishes durdling). Neonate rewards a certain type of aggro deck building. Wolfbitten captive because I wanted more wolf transform creatures, and its a great mana sink. Scholar is a super interesting card and I wanted it back in. Makeshift mauler just encourages a lot of great synergies in the cube. Priest and bonds of faith just sort of made it in.
Out
In
The spirit theme hasn't really panned out over the long term: too narrow. Angel gets played, but its always been a 4/4 flyer for 5, which won't cut it here. Flamespeaker has been a huge disappointment, and I'm not sure why. I hate fettergeist, as its a card that punishes you for casting spells. Hada spy patrol is too expensive. Elves was just the only green card I could justify cutting.
The 3rd champion could stay, I'm just getting championed out. The delver decks have been getting absurd now that everyone has realized how easy it is to break with vault.
I added (back) a second waif in red, because waif does everything you need (punishes durdling). Neonate rewards a certain type of aggro deck building. Wolfbitten captive because I wanted more wolf transform creatures, and its a great mana sink. Scholar is a super interesting card and I wanted it back in. Makeshift mauler just encourages a lot of great synergies in the cube. Priest and bonds of faith just sort of made it in.
What do you think of Gideon's Lawkeeper instead of the priest? Do the 2 points of thoughness matter that much?(I bet they do.)
Which of the "out" cards were actually removed entirely, vs just having their number of copies reduced?
Does your local group like the penny pincher cube or the old Inni cube better?
Does your local group like the penny pincher cube or the old Inni cube better?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I like the tribal nature of the priest and the 1 extra toughness, not really married to the card though.
Champion, delver, and stromkirk were all reduced by one. The others represent singletons and were thus removed entirely.
Haven't gotten to draft the penny cube yet, still waiting for orders to come in from TCG player. Will let you all know when it happens
Champion, delver, and stromkirk were all reduced by one. The others represent singletons and were thus removed entirely.
Haven't gotten to draft the penny cube yet, still waiting for orders to come in from TCG player. Will let you all know when it happens
Nice to see we reached the same conclusion on the aggro one drops. I have also reduced the delver and noble count by one in favour of a bit slower creatures and the white and green changes look good too. One thing I don't really understand is the blue changes. You said yourself a few pages back that you could have two whole blue sections considering the amount of good blue creatures (paraphrasing, don't remember the exact quote) and yet you put in the third Armored skaab and a rather unexciting beater that is slightly under the curve. Why not include a new twist on the mill mechanic instead of the skaab (Selhoff Occultist, Cephalid Vandal, Cephalid Illusionist or perhaps even Ambassador Laquatus)? I do realize he is a good blocker but there must be better ways then just adding a third copy. You could also go outside of the creatures for self mill and run something like Chronic flooding
Also there must be more interesting cards than the makeshift mauler that compete for that spot. How about Havengul Runebinder (Zombie theme build around), Ludevic's Test Subject (good blocker early and win con late), Relentless Skaabs (At least they do something unique)?
Also there must be more interesting cards than the makeshift mauler that compete for that spot. How about Havengul Runebinder (Zombie theme build around), Ludevic's Test Subject (good blocker early and win con late), Relentless Skaabs (At least they do something unique)?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I've been focused more on the other cube, so I was just looking for cards that would encourage key interactions. I really like the ambassador laquatus idea though.
I want to try mauler, because I feel that the mulch-skaab interaction is under represented, but I test subject seems good. Solid mana sinks are always welcome.
I want to try mauler, because I feel that the mulch-skaab interaction is under represented, but I test subject seems good. Solid mana sinks are always welcome.
It could be just me, but it looks like your spoiler blocks have broken in the first post.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
No, they've just always been funky. You have to click on the bottom of the two; the top one is redundant.
Dunno why I haven't been following this cube. Can you comment on these cards?
The first two I might like to add, and I'm wondering if increasing confusion is not a really unfun bomb.
The first two I might like to add, and I'm wondering if increasing confusion is not a really unfun bomb.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I really like sever the bloodline, and put it in any cube I can get away with running it in. Its always solid, sometimes spectacular, and makes it easier to run token heavy themes. I also like the style of control that it promotes, very grindy, and carefully eeking out card advantage. That sort of classic UB spot removal heavy control--a bit like the dralnu decks during time spiral standard. In addition, its a nice source of incidental graveyard hate. Higher power cubes, I suspect, will need more from their sorcery speed spot removal spell.
Temblor is more specialized. I like the card, but where it shines (and what it was designed to do) was to push a U/R flyers theme. Its really great there, as a sweeper in a format where a pyroclasm effect is going to be impactful. In most formats, I think its fine to look at other pyroclasm effects.
Increasing confusion has been fine, though that might be a consequence of poor deck drafting/building. When people look at it, they tend to be hesitant to run it, if they are not on a pure mill plan. When it does get drafted, its usually some whacky Johnny, putting it in some less than min/max deck. I can say that I've found the card fun, and not a feel bad, but its hard for me to really put a finger on it.
Temblor is more specialized. I like the card, but where it shines (and what it was designed to do) was to push a U/R flyers theme. Its really great there, as a sweeper in a format where a pyroclasm effect is going to be impactful. In most formats, I think its fine to look at other pyroclasm effects.
Increasing confusion has been fine, though that might be a consequence of poor deck drafting/building. When people look at it, they tend to be hesitant to run it, if they are not on a pure mill plan. When it does get drafted, its usually some whacky Johnny, putting it in some less than min/max deck. I can say that I've found the card fun, and not a feel bad, but its hard for me to really put a finger on it.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So, I've been toying around with an update, which is still really rough I think. The realization that I could balance out removal and synergistic board states with temp. protection effects was something of a breakthrough, so I feel I can run a pretty powered removal suite. I'm kind of taking some idea from the penny pincher cube, which has been both good and bad. Part of me wants to go deep in the low power direction, as there are certain things I feel I can't do until Wizards expands the card pool.
But there are some cool ideas here I've been toying with, so I wanted to posts some lists and talk about whats working and not working. Here is the list I've been toying. The idea is to power graveyard velocity using the higher power artifacts. Probably the biggest facilitators of this are x3 thought scour and x3 satyr wayfinder. These are bread and butter cards that form the foundation for self-mill and graveyard velocity strategies, alongside the x6 chromatic stars.
First, I've been going on about U/R artifacts and tinker, here is a list:
Really happy with this. Tinker, or rebuying tinker is actually awesome here as a way to perilous vault, pyromancer's goggles, spine of ish sah, or sharding sphinx. There is a lot of cantriping and graveyard velocity driven drawing going on here, so I think the deck would be able to get its chromatic star to power the tinker engine, though obviously more disposable artifacts would have been ideal. The deck kind of has to rely on foundry of the counsels to add this level of redundancy, and thats a bit slow. After this I added a second academy ruins, and a totel of 4 wellsprings. As is, the potential of thopter spy network as a control finisher and tinker enabler seems great. Sharding Sphinx can quicky get out of control with thopter spy network and foundry of the counsels.
The academy ruins allows for a higher power version of auriok salvagers recursion, and involves TOL manipulation.
Pyromancer's goggles looks really exciting here, making anger of the gods into a high powered sweeper, and much of the burn suite into a real game ending threat, or high powered spot removal.
This is also something I wanted to experiment with: the idea of using bow of nylea as an engine in a tight sight type deck. Here it has the potential to mill itself nearly to death and go infinte with worm harvest, or alternately, win with laboratory maniac. Removal on the maniac can be responded to by activating bow and putting cards on TOL. Proc effects like apostle's blessing help protect that key threat. Also experimenting with garruk wildspeaker in conjuncton with bouncelands as a ramp engine.
And then there is this sweet new archetype, built around taxing effects.
The idea behind these decks is to cheat tempo by upping the average CC of an opponent's deck, and sneaking under that with a series of discounted threats. All stars here are cards like delver of secrets, and the delve threats. Familiars (which I vastly prefer to ritual effects) help get the deck below the mana threshold, while archangel of tithes, grand arbiter augustin iv, thalia, and thalia horse push the opponent over. A novel way to approach tempo that bleeds strongly into control and prison strategies.
Key pieces like grand arbiter or archangel have temp protection effects to help keep them around.
The second deck follows a similar strategy, but has a really mean looking splicer midrange strategy going, which now also powers nasty threats like etched champion.
This is a bit rough for what I would like ultimately for aggro, but it has an engine I've been wanting to experiment with for a long time. Since this is a heavily graveyard based format, mardu woe-reaper in conjunction with dashing or recurring warriors is a pretty interesting disruption engine, which can also grow champion of the parish. To tie that together, I have double keldon mauraders (human and warrior), which seems interesting with the blink and value reanimation strategies.
But anyways, my big problem right now is figuring out the mana base. The bouncelands enable a lot of really good things, and the control or midrange decks really want two sets to draft from, I feel, but at the same time thats miserable for the aggro decks. In the penny cube they can make up the difference pretty easily, because that format develops slower anyways, and they can easily dip into the star/wellspring selection to effectively have +8 lands to choose from. Here this is just a lot of competition for the stars/wellsprings from all of the other archetypes, and it looks like a tough draft with multiple aggro players at the table.
Probably will be forced to go down to one set of bouncelands, and run a set of fetches?
I feel like I have some midrange identity work left to do, and some of the contours of the draft feel pretty sharp if you don't know what you are doing. I think I finally have just enough support for black aggro.
The multi-color section is also a bit of a mess I think. Feel pretty good about the spot removal, but will probably have to tweek the mass removal. I kind of want mass removal to removal enchantments and artifacts.
But there are some cool ideas here I've been toying with, so I wanted to posts some lists and talk about whats working and not working. Here is the list I've been toying. The idea is to power graveyard velocity using the higher power artifacts. Probably the biggest facilitators of this are x3 thought scour and x3 satyr wayfinder. These are bread and butter cards that form the foundation for self-mill and graveyard velocity strategies, alongside the x6 chromatic stars.
First, I've been going on about U/R artifacts and tinker, here is a list:
U/R Goggles from CubeTutor.com
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Really happy with this. Tinker, or rebuying tinker is actually awesome here as a way to perilous vault, pyromancer's goggles, spine of ish sah, or sharding sphinx. There is a lot of cantriping and graveyard velocity driven drawing going on here, so I think the deck would be able to get its chromatic star to power the tinker engine, though obviously more disposable artifacts would have been ideal. The deck kind of has to rely on foundry of the counsels to add this level of redundancy, and thats a bit slow. After this I added a second academy ruins, and a totel of 4 wellsprings. As is, the potential of thopter spy network as a control finisher and tinker enabler seems great. Sharding Sphinx can quicky get out of control with thopter spy network and foundry of the counsels.
The academy ruins allows for a higher power version of auriok salvagers recursion, and involves TOL manipulation.
Pyromancer's goggles looks really exciting here, making anger of the gods into a high powered sweeper, and much of the burn suite into a real game ending threat, or high powered spot removal.
BUG Tight Sight from CubeTutor.com
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This is also something I wanted to experiment with: the idea of using bow of nylea as an engine in a tight sight type deck. Here it has the potential to mill itself nearly to death and go infinte with worm harvest, or alternately, win with laboratory maniac. Removal on the maniac can be responded to by activating bow and putting cards on TOL. Proc effects like apostle's blessing help protect that key threat. Also experimenting with garruk wildspeaker in conjuncton with bouncelands as a ramp engine.
And then there is this sweet new archetype, built around taxing effects.
Delve and Taxes from CubeTutor.com
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Death and Splicers from CubeTutor.com
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The idea behind these decks is to cheat tempo by upping the average CC of an opponent's deck, and sneaking under that with a series of discounted threats. All stars here are cards like delver of secrets, and the delve threats. Familiars (which I vastly prefer to ritual effects) help get the deck below the mana threshold, while archangel of tithes, grand arbiter augustin iv, thalia, and thalia horse push the opponent over. A novel way to approach tempo that bleeds strongly into control and prison strategies.
Key pieces like grand arbiter or archangel have temp protection effects to help keep them around.
The second deck follows a similar strategy, but has a really mean looking splicer midrange strategy going, which now also powers nasty threats like etched champion.
3 color aggro from CubeTutor.com
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This is a bit rough for what I would like ultimately for aggro, but it has an engine I've been wanting to experiment with for a long time. Since this is a heavily graveyard based format, mardu woe-reaper in conjunction with dashing or recurring warriors is a pretty interesting disruption engine, which can also grow champion of the parish. To tie that together, I have double keldon mauraders (human and warrior), which seems interesting with the blink and value reanimation strategies.
But anyways, my big problem right now is figuring out the mana base. The bouncelands enable a lot of really good things, and the control or midrange decks really want two sets to draft from, I feel, but at the same time thats miserable for the aggro decks. In the penny cube they can make up the difference pretty easily, because that format develops slower anyways, and they can easily dip into the star/wellspring selection to effectively have +8 lands to choose from. Here this is just a lot of competition for the stars/wellsprings from all of the other archetypes, and it looks like a tough draft with multiple aggro players at the table.
Probably will be forced to go down to one set of bouncelands, and run a set of fetches?
I feel like I have some midrange identity work left to do, and some of the contours of the draft feel pretty sharp if you don't know what you are doing. I think I finally have just enough support for black aggro.
The multi-color section is also a bit of a mess I think. Feel pretty good about the spot removal, but will probably have to tweek the mass removal. I kind of want mass removal to removal enchantments and artifacts.
How is that tight sight deck supposed to mill itself? I see Golgari thug and wayfinder. Won't this take forever?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I was actually debating if I shouldn't copy safra's howling mine tech for that reason: it would work in the tithe deck too. I think turbo mill is too narrow at this power level, so maybe slower controlling type builds?
Seems doable to me, just needs a different build:
Tight Hoof from CubeTutor.com
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More incidental graveyard filling might be called for though. I think the howling mine tech would work with the tithes deck and might shore up non-graveyard aggro (i had an abortive UB delver draft that felt like it could've been a real contender)
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That looks pretty good. I really like the bow works as a piece of tech in this sort of enviornment: much more eloquent than the old way of using krosan restoration and memory's journey, though those cards were neat as anti-graveyard and TOL manipulation tech. Its also nice as an anti-flyer card for green. Part of me still wants to run a single copy of memory's journey, but thats probably not the right focus right now.
I think you are right about the incidental graveyard milling. I feel like blue really needs something on top of the x3 thought scour (no, I am not running mental note). Maybe just a second forbidden alchemy and call it a day? I probably need to get red a little more involved as well: tormenting voice should be in there. I might want x2 tormenting voice, x2 magmatic insight, x1 faithless looting.
The thing is, you really don't need a lot of self-mill or card draw, I don't think. A more controlling build should be able to take the long game enough where it decks itself off of a little card draw. Forbidden alchemy + flashback +second draw or mill spell is usually going to be enough, I feel, to put a control deck in mill range.
Craterhoof is supposed to be my pelakka wurm replacement, as a fair/fun reanimation/ramp target. I'm kind of running a bunch of mana dorks for tht reason.
I want my control decks to have distinct personalities, so this is what I am going for:
1. U/W: sort of a tempo-tax feel to it.
2. U/B: 2006 dralnu decks, getting value off of spot removal to grind out a game, hopefully with a toolbox feel
3. U/R: sort of an artifact based control deck.
Obviously, the personalities change a bit with the edition of a third color: e.g. Esper can run Terminus like a champ.
Fyi, I really wanted that past in flames, because I think it could be great with bounceland ramp, but I have no idea how to use it lol.
The artifact and land section is still a pretty big mess though, I feel. How did you feel about the fixing and competition for stars?
I think you are right about the incidental graveyard milling. I feel like blue really needs something on top of the x3 thought scour (no, I am not running mental note). Maybe just a second forbidden alchemy and call it a day? I probably need to get red a little more involved as well: tormenting voice should be in there. I might want x2 tormenting voice, x2 magmatic insight, x1 faithless looting.
The thing is, you really don't need a lot of self-mill or card draw, I don't think. A more controlling build should be able to take the long game enough where it decks itself off of a little card draw. Forbidden alchemy + flashback +second draw or mill spell is usually going to be enough, I feel, to put a control deck in mill range.
Craterhoof is supposed to be my pelakka wurm replacement, as a fair/fun reanimation/ramp target. I'm kind of running a bunch of mana dorks for tht reason.
I want my control decks to have distinct personalities, so this is what I am going for:
1. U/W: sort of a tempo-tax feel to it.
2. U/B: 2006 dralnu decks, getting value off of spot removal to grind out a game, hopefully with a toolbox feel
3. U/R: sort of an artifact based control deck.
Obviously, the personalities change a bit with the edition of a third color: e.g. Esper can run Terminus like a champ.
Fyi, I really wanted that past in flames, because I think it could be great with bounceland ramp, but I have no idea how to use it lol.
The artifact and land section is still a pretty big mess though, I feel. How did you feel about the fixing and competition for stars?
Here's my other two drafts for reference (what can I say, I like Gifts):
I had a pretty rough time evaluating how many baubles decks needed at first but I think I eventually got the hang of it (i just didn't want any). The fixing is interesting but in the absence of fetches I don't know that shocks are doing everything you want them to be. The Mystic Gate cycle might be really interesting with bouncelands. I think there are enough lands but I didn't always feel that way in the draft. I'd personally like to see the scrylands in there, but you already have a bunch of ETBT fixing. I'm really excited by this redesign though and I can't wait to see where it goes.
I'd try Loaming Shaman over Journey to be honest, it's surprisingly versatile.
More looting effects is a cool way to fill graveyards that jives with grindy incremental advantage. I wouldn't double up on magmatic insight over Faithless Looting. I still think you should probably do more to enable graveyard filling; a skaab archetype maybe?
yeah, I think the grixis list I drafted without foreknowledge fits your UB/UR goals, so hopefully that's heartening.
I had a pretty rough time evaluating how many baubles decks needed at first but I think I eventually got the hang of it (i just didn't want any). The fixing is interesting but in the absence of fetches I don't know that shocks are doing everything you want them to be. The Mystic Gate cycle might be really interesting with bouncelands. I think there are enough lands but I didn't always feel that way in the draft. I'd personally like to see the scrylands in there, but you already have a bunch of ETBT fixing. I'm really excited by this redesign though and I can't wait to see where it goes.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I reset the drafter, since I've been doing nothing but forcing aggro, I think all the bots were just forcing it with me, which is why I was having such a hard time.
I'm trying x20 bounce, x10 temples, x10 shocks, x5 zenidkar manlands, x2 academt ruins, evolving wilds/expanse, and foundry of the counsels. Plus x6 star, x1 exp. map, x2 ichor wellspring, x1 mycosynth wellspring.
This is what went in, talk me out of anything that seems crazy:
I want to do a few drafts with doomsday, extractor demon, demonic pact, and past in flames to see what my imagination can cook up.
All I have for doomsday right now is lab. maniac, but I'm sure its lethal with most any combo.
A few notes, after given it some thought, I actually cut stitched drake. The reason being is that its not actually very good. Even in pauper its a very middling card, and is way outclassed in terms of power by essentially everything else in the cube. Its probably never actually been very good, but has just had its spot because its a zombie. I think if I were to do a lower power version of these themes, I would run the skaabs, but at this power level I think they are just outclassed.
I also cut soulflayer and necropolis fiend. The on those cards is actually pretty limiting, and I am running double gurmag angler instead. Tombstalker is still in there because its cheaper than fiend.
I'm trying x20 bounce, x10 temples, x10 shocks, x5 zenidkar manlands, x2 academt ruins, evolving wilds/expanse, and foundry of the counsels. Plus x6 star, x1 exp. map, x2 ichor wellspring, x1 mycosynth wellspring.
This is what went in, talk me out of anything that seems crazy:
I want to do a few drafts with doomsday, extractor demon, demonic pact, and past in flames to see what my imagination can cook up.
All I have for doomsday right now is lab. maniac, but I'm sure its lethal with most any combo.
A few notes, after given it some thought, I actually cut stitched drake. The reason being is that its not actually very good. Even in pauper its a very middling card, and is way outclassed in terms of power by essentially everything else in the cube. Its probably never actually been very good, but has just had its spot because its a zombie. I think if I were to do a lower power version of these themes, I would run the skaabs, but at this power level I think they are just outclassed.
I also cut soulflayer and necropolis fiend. The
on those cards is actually pretty limiting, and I am running double gurmag angler instead. Tombstalker is still in there because its cheaper than fiend.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Really like these slaver control and pyromancer goggle decks. Artifact theme looks legit.
Doomsday is also looking pretty sweet, though not sure about demonic pact and past in flames. Took past in flames out for the moment. Doomsday is basically just the ultimate combo tutor, condensing the game down upon its resolution to a show down turn.
I feel like the mana is ok. I didn't feel like there was enough graveyard interactions in the sense of using self-mill as a sort of draw engine, so I added flashback and unearth cards, as well as a few other recursive cards. I'm experimenting with some of the red phoenixs as part of a package to encourge U/R thought scour based decks.
Really want to run punishing fire, not sure I will have enough incidental life gain though to make it playable.
Grixis Pyromancer's Control Slaver from CubeTutor.com
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Control Slaver from CubeTutor.com
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Doomsday is also looking pretty sweet, though not sure about demonic pact and past in flames. Took past in flames out for the moment. Doomsday is basically just the ultimate combo tutor, condensing the game down upon its resolution to a show down turn.
Doomsday from CubeTutor.com
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I feel like the mana is ok. I didn't feel like there was enough graveyard interactions in the sense of using self-mill as a sort of draw engine, so I added flashback and unearth cards, as well as a few other recursive cards. I'm experimenting with some of the red phoenixs as part of a package to encourge U/R thought scour based decks.
Really want to run punishing fire, not sure I will have enough incidental life gain though to make it playable.
Wait, is this the innistrad cube or did you post the pincher in the wrong thread
This is what I thought first off as well. It takes a lot of elements of the penny pincher cube that it does seem like the pincher cube just without the budgetary constraints, which is why (I am assuming) it got shifted to this thread.
I think it is pretty fun. I did enjoy the penny pincher cube and the flexible archetype driven card choices that made the cube fun to draft. This does the same thing but includes some power ($$$) as well, which is rather appealing.
My favourite route seems to be the value blinking route (How can you ever pass a Mulldrifter?!?. I drafted this monstrosity, which just looks like an absolute blast to play:
WURg Blinkin' Value Town from CubeTutor.com
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I did see a couple of cards that don't seem to fit (just from my couple of drafts):
Fabled Hero: I first picked him in a draft and saw only one white combat trick. The number of tricks between the pincher cube and this one feels to have dropped substantially, especially in other colours. Wondering if he still worth the slot when Silverblade Paladin is almost doing the same thing. (Plus there are a lot of 1WW in your 3 drops, which minght need to be lowered)
Genesis Wave: I don't know why I dislike this card. I love Villainous Wealth so I don't know why I always feel this card is underwhelming. I guess you need to do it for (at least) 5 to get decent value, so that makes it a 8+ drop. I don't know if you have the consistent ramp package for that.
Sylvan Safekeeper: I don't get where this goes. Green stompy? I probably need to play with it to understand the appeal.
Also, the baubles just don't feel the same without this guy
Feels like a solid upgrade from the pincher cube, will continue to draft again. I do miss the old Innistrad Cube a bit though. Burning Vengeance shall always live on in my dreams.