-1

[TrainmasterGT]

A few of these seem really weak on -1 compared to some of the other stuff in this format. Why would I ever play Sludge Strider if my opponent is playing out Shambling Remains a turn before that? Same thing with stuff like Bant Sojourners, Grixis Sojourners, and Warden of the Eye. All of these cards are fine on paper, but their stats are not pushed enough compared to all of the 1 and 2 drops that will be running around to be good.

Where's Roon of the Hidden Realm in Bant? He is probably the best reason to be in that color combination.

This is all just stuff to think about. I just think that if you want to power-up low-powered interactions and creatures, then you're going to need to make sure they're not being outclassed by the stuff being played before them.

 

[Brad]

A few of these seem really weak on -1 compared to some of the other stuff in this format. Why would I ever play Sludge Strider if my opponent is playing out Shambling Remains a turn before that? Same thing with stuff like Bant Sojourners, Grixis Sojourners, and Warden of the Eye. All of these cards are fine on paper, but their stats are not pushed enough compared to all of the 1 and 2 drops that will be running around to be good.

Where's Roon of the Hidden Realm in Bant? He is probably the best reason to be in that color combination.

This is all just stuff to think about. I just think that if you want to power-up low-powered interactions and creatures, then you're going to need to make sure they're not being outclassed by the stuff being played before them.

As I said to Onder, it's unlikely Shambling makes the cut. I'm probably going to aim at 3/2 or 3/3 as the two drops, as a more typical cube would have. The whole curve will need some examining once the multicolor setup is closer to figured out, but I'm definitely using a typical cube as a reference point.

Roon is only cool if he hits significant value ETBs, which tend to fuck up the game pretty badly. There's very little reason to play a creature or a spell when you can just play a creature AND a spell with these ETB guys. Warden is a good example where you end up being 3c and have slightly poor stats in order to get your board presence +1. It's difficult to achieve any density of ETB effects without giving a deck excessive value.

I'm gonna go delete the Shambling Remains so no one speaks of it again lol.

 

[Brad]

GRUUL POST
The gruul section was originally thick with creatures, but I narrowed it down to the most likely cards.

Hybrids

Is Pit Fight even good enough? Probably not, right?
I'm skeptical people would tap Valleymaker very often rather than just hit, but who knows. Could play into the ramp section.

Typical RG Aggro Stuff

Grumgully is way too good, right? Love the non-Human part, but wanted to check here. Pretty sure it's nuts.
Raiders and Arynx could team up with Bolrac-Clan Crusher, perhaps.

RG Ramp

I kind of like how Morselhoarder, Valleymaker, and Ventmaw can SUPER ramp you the turn after they hit. Could be a new deck of sorts.
The unloaded card is Escape to the Wilds from ELD.

Other

Stonebrow is solid enough and gives a nice draft angle. Could be too one-dimensional.
Thromok is just a sick card but I doubt it ends up happening if we don't run Jund Sac.
Smash seems probably really good? The buff is a big deal pre-fight.

 

[Brad]

SELESNYA POST

Hybrid

Nature's Chant is a really cool, flexible answer.

+1/+1

Lots of options within these colors including the one drop Ainok Bond-Kin. Needs more investigating, but I'm certain there's depth to it.

Multicolor Matters

This one gets pretty cool with all the hybrids around, but is also a bit scary at how good it might be.
Faeburrow Elder from ELD is the unloaded card.

Enchantments

There's a lot of now-relevant cantripping auras that cost one mana instead of two and could fuel this.

Legends

Pick some legends and fire it up.

Ramp

Bestial Menace plus Summoner would be quite the search through the tokens. Menace likely a bit too much, however.

I also have an idea where you take the convoke cards and combo off with them on their reduced costs, a semi-combo variant of token aggro.



I'm not too fired up about GW. Plenty of solid options and it will be a fine guild, but not currently inspired. Most of the decks are the same as a full cost format except the like-too-good multicolor matters deck.

 

[Brad]

ORZHOV POST

Hybrids

Lot of lifegain...

Lifegain!

Like 99% chance I run exactly these 4. Maybe only Kingpin OR Drana.

Legends exists

But doubt it.

Removal and Other

Solid stuff, but lifegain theme appeals to me. Maybe one of these makes it.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

2/4 flying for 1WB is buff! :eek:

I really like the Vizkopa Vampire as a 3/1 lifelink hybrid 2 cmc beater

There's more interesting hybrids I feel, though!


Cauldron Haze is a good one mana trick that works really well against sweepers, Debtors' Knell is a solid control finisher at six mana (it's been solid at seven in my own cube), all of the hedge-mages are in fact amazing bears that you have to work for to get the most out of, and Deathbringer Liege was always a mana too expensive.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

There's more hybrids you haven't mentioned that I personally think are quite sweet.

Azorius

A perfect one drop that isn't a 2/1. (Not really a pure hybrid though, obviously.)
A card advantage bear that has been somewhat bad at three mana, but might be really, really good at two.
A tapper with a big but that can get in and still hold the fort.
A savage Remove Soul/Raise the Alarm entwine spell.
A one mana trick (I love those) that can either take out a blocker, save your own creature from a removal spell, or rebuy an etb effect.

Dimir

I like 1/1 hybrids with a mid- to late game upgrade. This has good stats as a 1/1 with semi-evasion.
A 1/2 for even. Seems sweet! Also, 1 drop into a 2 mana activation is much, much better than 2 into 2. Now it actually curves out, and it blocks all those pesky 2/1's we're introducing.
One mana draw two. Yuss!
Sweet, Unsummon meets Coercion. That's worth .
Connive seems like a brutal swing, maybe too good? Concoct puts Zombify at the correct casting cost though

Rakdos

Is a 2/2 that deals 2 damage for 3 too good? Fire Imp is only okay and easier to cast. I know Redcap is a favourite include in any cube, but I wonder if it would be OP if we shaved off a mana. Premium removal though, no doubt!
A 3/3 flyer for 4 is good value, and this has a really unique effect that we could make use of in the environment.
Goblin War Drums that puts out bodies and can be interacted with! Sweet card!
Phyrexian Arena for everyone! Sounds absolutely awesome!

Gruul

A perfect high power, low toughness beater for aggressive decks.
A sweet build around card that brings multiple bodies.
Best Fires of Yavimaya lookalike available in this format? Also scries!

Selesnya

A cool build around. Don't know if there's enough there, though there are probably a few overcosted tokenmakers we can cheapen up and combo with this.
Hey, another one of those cheap one mana tricks. This saves absolutely everything, including noncreatures, unless villain is exiling our stuff.

 

[Brad]

Ok, let's reply to all this

Haze is fine but I don't really want to get out 13 dice to keep track of one spell.
Knell is cool but doesn't support my themes. Could make the cut as one of five guilds, but not in ten.
Hedge Mages are pretty nasty ETBs all around.
Liege is gonna snowball SUPER hard and doesn't really support any themes.

Witch and Mist, I dislike ETBs and therefore blink.
Adept seems scary in that it could gain a TON of life really quickly, which makes games pretty unfun. Even one hit could be a draw one, gain six. That's gross.
Silkbind may be worth it and a bit of an oversight. It's quite the combatant.
Repel seems REALLY good. Block your team and stop the new guy is a huge effect. Likely too strong at 3 for me.

Inkfathom becomes useful kind of late and does little prior.
Fateseal is so unfun lol.
Scarscale is maybe cool, depending.
I really dislike looking at hands, but Grasp does so somewhat late in the game. Maybe.
Connive looks like a problem to me.

ETB Redcap is so brutal. The times when you play your ETB stuff with tempo and get to Time Walk them is so ridiculous.
Kulrath... teach me how and I'm open but it doesn't initially excite me.
Not convinced I like walkers as cards at all, personally.
I'm skeptical on symmetrical effects, although I did briefly eye Nekusar lol.

Solifuge is absolutely a card I must have skimmed past. One of my old favorites. Will add this almost for sure.
Wort... Seems scary. I looked at Wort for a while before opting out. The base rate is really decent and if you conspire anything it's a big deal. I feel like a Wort untap turn is going to be an issue, but if you have experience with the card, let me know for sure.
Samut, pretty sure I don't want walkers.

I looked at Ranks for a while and I always feel like it sucks on a 1/1 and gets a little nuts anything past that. Also requires quite a shift in the G and W sections where I'd likely end up in a "Populate" search anyways, so I left it for now. Could totally be cool.
Reknit could be cool but I wonder if the scry on Gods Willing is better.



Those are my initial thoughts, but I'm glad the cards are in the thread and maybe someone convinces me that I'm totally wrong on them.

I should also note that, after looking at the 3C options, I'm leaning towards a 10 guild structure. So guild slots are at a premium and we can't really run a TON of double+ hybrid symbol cards. Single hybrids are cool all day, of course.

 

[Brad]

IZZET POST

Hybrids

Hatchlings are kinda cool but probably fall a bit flat in ten guild build.
Nuck is sick. High enough on the curve plus below average stats makes me not mind the +2 that you have to work for on ETB.

Spells Matter

Entity might be a bit much, not sure.
Gelectrode seems spot on.
Dragon gets pretty aggressive in general at this cost.

Other

Mix of draw matters, second spell matters, and spells. All support spells matters pretty well and we're almost surely going to end up in classic Izzet. There's probably some sort of storm-like deck around Gelectrode, Djinn, and Niv if we wanted to work that as a possibility. Which actually sounds quite cool.

 

[Brad]

GOLGARI POST

Hybrids

Death bear, bit of fat, REALLY fat and probably not good, and an interesting (maybe too strong in those tough combats) removal spell.

Sac

Interestingly, this section is diminished because a lot of the good sac BG cards are already appropriately or well costed.

Slimeyyy

As a side note to sac, I kind of want to push this dude.

Value

Some solid value dudes to solidify the mid-late game. Mender is a HELL of a Gravesifter and Null gets you a LOT of value, but he comes down pretty late. Although, he's serviceable at 6 mana. All three of these seem maybe fine, maybe too pushed.

Other

Is sprout too good here? It seems a bit bad at 4, but maybe a bit much at 3. It's borderline Time Walk sometimes, I'd think.
Jarad's maybe gets interesting if we support the graveyard.
I want to cast Casualties so many times. Love the card. Really gets me excited, similar to Cruel Ultimatum.



I was tempted to run “toughness matters” but I think it's detrimental to the format to have a ton of blockers who won't die clogging up the board.

 

[Brad]

BOROS POST
On a roll, let's keep the posts going. Almost done with 'em.

Hybrid

Recruit is a little pushed but I'm not too worried. Boros is an attacking guild, after all.
Spitemare is a fixed Reckoner.
Blow is a maybe. Not sure I'll need specifically artifact hate.
Arrows seems easy to add, as Gideon's Reproach has been decent and the cost is flexible here.

Regular Hitter Types

These all do their job. Avenger probably more compelling than Mantis.

Affect Combat

These guys all this combat in your favorite and all cost the exact same amount... so maybe one of them. Adriana is the most raw stats, Agrus makes you work a little more, and Basandra is kind of more balanced by just being well-statted and not a full-on anthem. Probably the most interesting and least wordy effect, as well.

Burn!

These guys are adding value to your burn spells, which is great. All red decks love burn and these make it sweeter. Warleader's Helix is probably a bit much, however.

 

[Brad]

SIMIC POST
Let's wrap this up.

Hybrid

Little hitter with a twist. Hatchling posted, but probably not great in 10-guilds.

Ramp

I really fear the speed of the 2 mana tappers. I'm not sure where to place my ramp in this cube. I really dislike early ramp locking out early game decks.
I like the ramp payoffs here quite a bit. Sky Swallower is a throwback.

Draw Matters

Coatl grows a bit quick, but this looks decent. Not sure it's super motivating to do anything, but could sit alongside UR SpellDrawStormNiv.dec

Other

I worry that Mutation is too similar to an ETB effect.
I have a soft spot for Bring.


I'll try to wrap my head around it and post some overall summary tomorrow. Thanks for tagging along.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

No love for



? It's a nice crossover between Harbinger of the Tides and Healer of the Glade with a better body. Definitely not overpowered if you get both.

Snakeform seems absolute gas as well. It's close to good enough for cubes at three mana, at two it's bomb removal!

For Golgari as well, the Hag Hedge-Mage seems perfectly fine, as a cross-breed between Ravenous Rats and Reclaim. Rendclaw Throw seems like a perfectly decent two drop, that plays well with sacrifice shenanigans (and Kuldotha Knight).

Man, I'm definitely including the Hedge-Mages whenever I get around to building my version of this :') I might even design the allied ones!

 

[Brad]

HEDGE-MAGE?!
First of all, to reply, Snakeform seems cute for sure and possibly good. I've used it at 3cmc and it felt like it got stuck in my hand a lot but it's a lot better at 2.



I want to start by saying that I actually really like the concept of these guys, I just think that the majority of the scenarios they create are negative experiences. I would LOVE for you to convince me otherwise and that these are all fine, because they ARE interesting designs.


1. We have 2 plains turn 2 and we get a decent 3/3 overall stats. Nice, but easily achieved more consistently.
2. We have 2 plains turn 2 vs an aggro deck and we trade the 1/1 for their t1 and the 2/2 for their t2 and the game is effectively over.
3. We have 2 swamps turn 2 and we shrink their dude a bit or pop a token. Ok, I guess.
4. We have 2 swamps turn 2 and we kill their 2/1 and block their t2 play and the game is effectively over.
5. We've drawn a nonbasic land and we maindecked a 2/2 for 2 with no effect. Bad and probably very common. I don't foresee a shock/fetch manabase here.
6. We've drawn this later in the game where it will chump block twice, maybe the -1/-1 matters.


1. We have 2 islands and tap some blockers. Alright, I kind of like that.
2. We have 2 mountains and this is baby Flametongue Kavu, an insanely busted card. Much less relevant later in the game, but a serious t2 tempo.
3. We've drawn a nonbasic land and we maindecked a 2/2 for 2 with no effect.
4. We've drawn this later in the game where it could open a path on a very even board.


1. We have 2 swamps and this does a very mild and appropriate +1. I do worry that a density of this effect is unfun, however. Curving out ETB discard would hurt.
2. We have 2 forests and no targets to put on top.
3. We've drawn a nonbasic land and we maindecked a 2/2 for 2 with no effect.
4. We've drawn this later in the game and it's still an ok +1 and/or a +0 recur on a 2/2.


1. We have 2 plains and we Time Walk their turn 2.
2. We have 2 plains and they have no targets.
3. We have 2 mountains and we Time Walk their turn 2.
4. We have 2 mountains and they have no targets.
5. We've drawn a nonbasic land and we maindecked a 2/2 for 2 with no effect.
6. We've drawn this later in the game and hit two targets and get them pretty bad.


1. We have 2 forests and gain a little life. Sometimes relevant.
2. We have 2 islands and we bounce their guy, setting them back a varying amount.
3. We have 2 islands and they have no targets.
4. We've drawn a nonbasic land and we maindecked a 2/2 for 2 with no effect.
5. We've drawn this later in the game and we bounce their guy, setting them back a varying amount.
6. We've drawn this later in the game and they have no targets.

Sorry that this was so long, but I wanted to get my take on all the outcomes in here. This is how I analyze most cards, especially ETBs. What's the most unfun case from both sides of the card? If your Duergar hits my turn 2 artifact creature, you end up really far ahead on board immediately. Conversely, when you lack the proper lands to hit these in a timely manner, you're frustrated that you took the card. It's a REALLY high variance scenario. Granted, they aren't all that bad, but the "miss" case feels pretty shit.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

1. I was plugging these under the assumption of a good mana base. Why not use a shock/fetch mana base?
2. I have never seen someone be so dramatic on Disenchant. Time Walk really is the parallel you want to draw here? War Priest of Thune and Manic Vandal do exist, and are in no way overpowered whatsoever.
3. FTK can hit creatures, Noggle Hedge-Mage only hits players and planeswalkers. I think you might have misread the card. It's a perfect plant for aggressive UR strategies, I think.
4. For the Gwyllion Hedge-Mage you're being equally dramatic. It is definitely the best of the bunch, but thinking in doomsday scenarios like this isn't really fair to either player. So you're putting up a great defense. What's the aggro player going to do about it? Probably not run both his drops into your wall of bodies in an act of compleat defeatism.
5. What does Selkie Hedge-Mage do in situation 6? How about gain 3 life and add a warm body to the board?

And even curving these out on turn 2 without targets could be okay. There was a whole article linked to recently about how 2 is the magic toughness number for 3-drops, because it makes your 2- and possibly your 1-drops more relevant. I think even in a cube like this, aiming for a comparable p/t spread to normal Magic is important. I wouldn't include too many 3/3's for 3, let alone 3/3's for 2.

Ultimately, this comes down to your choice of mana base though. I can draw up doomsday scenarios for every card you would want to add, so thinking like this doesn't seem very useful to me. If none of the fixing has basic land types, however, the value of the Hedge-Mages goes way, way down. As I said, I'm a fan of good mana bases, but there could be reasons to not indulge in splurging on mana fixing as much. Maybe you want to keep the cube cheap so you can take it to GP's with less fear of it being stolen, maybe it's your second cube and you simply don't want to spend as much on it as on your main cube. Whatever the reason, the mana base of choice most certainly impacts the playability of these.

 

[Brad]

1. I'm going to do the untapped lands rule and won't go with shock/fetch. I'll likely be on maybe tri/vivid or something unless that gets obscene with 5c bases. Don't love the searching and shuffling or the investment. It's kind of a necessary evil of typical cubes, but I'll see what happens when we change how we evaluate lands.
2. I would never run War Priest or Vandal. Also, I spent two mana to get a creature into play, undo your last turn's play and effectively negated your card draw. It's a land drop from a Time Walk. I used to play with Rec Sage and everyone either complained they had no targets or complained they got wrecked when their turn 2-3 play got hit with tempo.
3. Definite misread. Card's VERY red in that case and I actually like both effects here, as they're both a damage push.
4. What IS the aggro player going to do? In an average scenario, probably not much. I used to run Nest Invader and hated it because it's going to soak up SO much damage. It may be a worst case scenario, but doomsday implies it's going to be exceptionally uncommon, which it isn't.
5. Adds a very poor body and a very small life gain. Of course, two drops aren't supposed to be very good later, but still.

Do you really play and never feel blown out when you get curved on something like War Priest with target into Fire Imp for +1 into FTK? Doesn't really matter what the card is, but ETB tempo into ETB tempo is basically unbeatable without your own ETB tempo to try and keep up. Back in the day, I played FTK into the -4/-4 morbid ETB into Noxious Gearhulk and I remember thinking how unfair it was in a creature vs creature matchup, as most are, and I felt bad about the win. Of course, these are further up the curve, but the point still stands.

Even if we suppose that getting ETB tempo'd is somehow a full-on doomsday scenario and it would be uncommon, it's going to feel very bad when you get hit with turn 2 tempo and it's also going to feel very bad when the card is just a bear, which will even happen in a shock/fetch -1cmc format. So there's a spectrum of play where this card can leave both the caster OR the villain feeling as if they were scammed out of a game. That's not going to make the playgroup happy. There's no reason to play extremely high variance cards like these.

Maybe your environments are running on a wildly higher power level than mine so that you don't see an issue with any of this because you're constantly getting spells tacked onto your creatures, but these tempo ETBs have been extremely detrimental to my environments and even the intermediate level players quickly realized how brutal these are when they come on curve and displace an entire turn.

There's no finesse. There's no play to it. My creature has a spell tacked on and yours didn't and now you're behind. That's unfun to me and has been expressed as unfun by all of my main playgroup who had the misfortune of going through that when I was in a higher powered cube.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Yeah, that's not my experience, but ymmv. I've never thought of, e.g., Mystic Snake as unfun, and neither has my playgroup. Now FTK is a completely different animal, and it's much better than any of these hedge-mages.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Ardenvale Tactician and some of the other adventures seem like they'll be great in this format.

 

[Brad]

Ardenvale Tactician and some of the other adventures seem like they'll be great in this format.

For sure. Another class of spells that get cast twice and will get a resultant -2 overall cost reduction. However, definitely a class of spells to be weary of as well, as they're essentially down-payment-ETBs. Quite a few of the rare ones, especially, are obviously too much value. Several of the commons caught my eye, for sure.

Definitely a type of card I will look into more once I have a better idea what decks I'm trying to support. I have a cool GB idea to present in the next few days here.

 

[Brad]

HOW DUMB IS THIS???
Suicide Rakdos with a touch of Ogre/Demon because that's where the list started and it's still a little relevant.



Kind of did a few searches and threw everything semi reasonable into the list. I'm thinking that, if we compare to Wild Nacatl or Woolly Thoctar, this stuff is maybe fine? Seems kind of fun to risk it all, Rakdos style. Not sure what the payoffs are or anything, but my main red-lover would totally want to YOLO this kind of deck and I find myself wanting to try it as well. Feels similar to Phyrexian mana, where you're trading some life for .5-1 mana in most cases.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

If you wanna get really spicy with the Ogres/Demons:


And then

As an additional gold ogre payoff.


Also Ebon Drake is still really bad even at 1B, it's just slightly less bad than normal.

 

[Brad]

Ya, haven't gone too deep on the ogre/demon part yet. Was just in that part of the list. Tomb's a little rough, maybe not worth a draft pick until LATE pack. Not sure. Flip a coin massive ETB randomness is probably lame. The other two are probably about right. It'll likely be a light tie-in to SuiRakdos, if anything.

But I take it you're mostly not too scared of the over-statted bodies? Some seem much better or worse than others, just wanted to show the spectrum of potential adds.

EDIT:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I've already held my pro-"2 toughness at < 3 cmc" speech, so needless to say I think stuff like Raving Oni-Slave And Nim Abomination are a bit much. I'll admit that the downsides are real though, so maybe they're okay?

 

[Brad]

I've already held my pro-"2 toughness at < 3 cmc" speech, so needless to say I think stuff like Raving Oni-Slave And Nim Abomination are a bit much. I'll admit that the downsides are real though, so maybe they're okay?

Ya. I generally prefer to have P>T on each mana cost so that they can fight +/-1 cmc in either way. But you can't maintain that for every card and those two in particular are beatings. Nim is kind of like a "must attack" Watchwolf with an extra toughness but you can not attack at hefty cost. Doesn't seem too crazy. I may even cross off the ETB trigger on Oni to give it synergy potential and not make the player take SIX DAMAGE!!! Or leave it out, who knows.

It's not really a cohesive theme in that there's many cards that want you to gain life (I can't really run Spawn of Mayhem), which I dislike about it. However, throwing everything away to bash face is a VERY Rakdos feeling. 90% of those cards are straight up garbage at full cost, which is cool to me because my players will get to use entirely different cards in this cube. Many that they've never seen before.

If the general consensus isn't that we are afraid of this kind of aggro, I might as well try it out. There's probably issues where too high of a density of these cards can either A.) Lead to blisteringly fast, unfair, unfun starts or B.) Lead to the players killing themselves and not being able to win. I also have concerns that the deck's matchups may be very polarized. It probably STOMPS control and gets similarly crushed by another aggro deck that isn't killing itself due to the starting life differential. So, definitely a lot of aspects to iron out, but a really cool concept (I think).

If it doesn't turn out as an entire deck, I think some of the higher costed ones are well worth keeping around anyways. Lava Hounds is a nice threat and you can better assess your life total vs theirs and make an informed play on T3. Same with Vampitic Spirit and Howling Banshee (which is basically unblockable-haste, lose 3), Char seems like a cool pick for a lot of red decks that are willing to trade 2 of their life for an extra point on their spell. Cost and Craving were likely going to make it in the cube anyways.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Ya, haven't gone too deep on the ogre/demon part yet. Was just in that part of the list. Tomb's a little rough, maybe not worth a draft pick until LATE pack. Not sure. Flip a coin massive ETB randomness is probably lame. The other two are probably about right. It'll likely be a light tie-in to SuiRakdos, if anything.

But I take it you're mostly not too scared of the over-statted bodies? Some seem much better or worse than others, just wanted to show the spectrum of potential adds.

EDIT:

I think part of the allure of this format is over-statted bodies for the cmc. Blue, for example, doesn't get 2/1s for one, let alone with upside, like Sage's Row Savant would here. Plus, it sounds like you're adding a bunch of cards that translate to being 1 mana 2/2s. It looks like you're building a very quick format as it is, so therefore I don't see an issue with big boys.

Rakdos is also pretty fun as long as there's ways to deal with him. He is significantly more interesting in a cube environment than in a retail limited format where all the removal is bad.

Speaking of removal...

Only reason I'm bringing up price is because of the hybrid element you seem to want to implement. It looks like it will miss enough of the format to be a good "kill a thing" card for one mana. To the Slaughter looks like Diabolic Edict with upside.