But how fun is it to play against the kiki deck? Like does it give appealing and interesting games?
Card/Deck Blink
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I lost to it once after my opponent topdecked the Kiki on turn 10 with an Angel already play. The game was certainly appealing and interesting. Up until the point where he drew a card and said: "Oops, I win!"
I tried it once and the games were super anticlimactic. Cube will (likely) never have the same dynamics as Modern (the decks aren't built to dance around the war of resolving an "I win" combo).
*Sorta-Tourney Report Time*
I played the Kiki deck last week in our draft. And it was THE Kiki deck, complete with Imperial Recruiter, Pestermite, Zealous Conscripts, and plenty of card filtering. It was an average deck I think, because even in 40 card decks you still have to find the proper components, fixing RRR in a U shell is harder than in constructed, and your filtering simple can't make up for the fact that you only get 1 of each combo piece.
I won 2 games out of 9 with the combo, but could have won another couple games with it if I didn't play Twin in constructed. I hesistated to immediately throw the combo down a couple of times, respecting GB mana out of my opponent on turn 6. Turns out, on 2 cards, they usually don't have an answer. My beat-down plan was also super weak (a result of me going "all-in" for the combo) or my opponents were prepared for YP, Clique, and Snappy with Toxic Deluge, Pyroclasm, Arc Trail, Lingering Souls, etc.
Each of the individual pieces are generally high demand, so it doesn't come together that often. Most people play Kiki for value in with their Pod decks, and the Blue tempo/Delver decks usually want Pestermite, and Conscripts is a high red pick as well. I like the individual pieces enough on their own that I think its fine to allow that combination to surface once in a while as a trade-off. It's similar to Anafenza, where I think she's a strong enough two-drop for white aggro to allow for the Finks-Anafenza-Sac. combo to exist in my cube.
I played the Kiki deck last week in our draft. And it was THE Kiki deck, complete with Imperial Recruiter, Pestermite, Zealous Conscripts, and plenty of card filtering. It was an average deck I think, because even in 40 card decks you still have to find the proper components, fixing RRR in a U shell is harder than in constructed, and your filtering simple can't make up for the fact that you only get 1 of each combo piece.
I won 2 games out of 9 with the combo, but could have won another couple games with it if I didn't play Twin in constructed. I hesistated to immediately throw the combo down a couple of times, respecting GB mana out of my opponent on turn 6. Turns out, on 2 cards, they usually don't have an answer. My beat-down plan was also super weak (a result of me going "all-in" for the combo) or my opponents were prepared for YP, Clique, and Snappy with Toxic Deluge, Pyroclasm, Arc Trail, Lingering Souls, etc.
Each of the individual pieces are generally high demand, so it doesn't come together that often. Most people play Kiki for value in with their Pod decks, and the Blue tempo/Delver decks usually want Pestermite, and Conscripts is a high red pick as well. I like the individual pieces enough on their own that I think its fine to allow that combination to surface once in a while as a trade-off. It's similar to Anafenza, where I think she's a strong enough two-drop for white aggro to allow for the Finks-Anafenza-Sac. combo to exist in my cube.
I've seen the Kiki-Twin deck come together exactly once, and it was a great version of the deck. Exarch, Pestermite, Kiki, Conscripts, Twin, Young Pyromancer, Dack Fayden, Snapcaster Mage...happily, I got to play against it, and we had some awesome games. I was playing Grixis, and planning out exactly where to use counters and removal was incredibly fun.
Game 1 he navigated my counter suite and stuck the combo. Game 2 I had the right removal at the right time and blew out both his Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch, and he ended up decking. Game 3 he was about to stick the combo (I knew from a Gitaxian Probe I'd topdecked, and I had no counters in hand), and I ended up killing him by bolting his Glen Elendra and then shooting a burn spell at his face with the Persist trigger on the stack.
His deck got completely run over round 1 by an aggro deck and then comboed out twice against a Green-White deck in round 3. Unfortunately, a lot of my players are fairly casual, and simply hadn't played enough to be ready for a Twin deck. I ended up cutting as it almost never came together and led to unfun games for some of my player base.
Game 1 he navigated my counter suite and stuck the combo. Game 2 I had the right removal at the right time and blew out both his Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch, and he ended up decking. Game 3 he was about to stick the combo (I knew from a Gitaxian Probe I'd topdecked, and I had no counters in hand), and I ended up killing him by bolting his Glen Elendra and then shooting a burn spell at his face with the Persist trigger on the stack.
His deck got completely run over round 1 by an aggro deck and then comboed out twice against a Green-White deck in round 3. Unfortunately, a lot of my players are fairly casual, and simply hadn't played enough to be ready for a Twin deck. I ended up cutting as it almost never came together and led to unfun games for some of my player base.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I feel Tanner's post sums it up pretty nicely. The matchup is interesting for experienced players, given you have the tools to battle the combo. For inexperienced players, and for players without the tools to deal with the combo, the matchup is disheartening and frustrating. This can be as simple as playing 
in a cube like mine that cut Path and StP.
in a cube like mine that cut Path and StP.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Which card do you guys think adds more to the cube--kiki jiki or resto angel?
Resto Angel. Fits in more decks and more splashable. That said, I don't mind having the two in the same Cube. Even having the two in the same deck isn't that bad. The Twin-style Cube deck needs a critical mass of untappers, Kiki/Twin style spells, and Tutors to tie the whole package together.
However, if you're running several tutors in combination with Kiki and Resto Angel, the math becomes a little different.
Personally I've just cut Kiki. The payoff for 2RRR just isn't there unless you're winning the game outright with it.
However, if you're running several tutors in combination with Kiki and Resto Angel, the math becomes a little different.
Personally I've just cut Kiki. The payoff for 2RRR just isn't there unless you're winning the game outright with it.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I think it's close, but I'd side with resto.
However, it's a bit of a misnomer. If you really want to cull the combo, the list is longer than resto angel:
Probably a few others I'm forgetting, plus kinda win guys like Kiroa's Follower
And in that case, cool as Kiki is, I gotta side with mah man Zealous Conscripts (Yes I'm aware both of those cards depict females
)
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Yeah, blink can quickly become obnoxious. Actual Blink is fine, and one-shot blinks tied to other effects are good, but it's a bit too easy to win by just moving Blade Splicer back and forth between zones.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Do people actually cube pestermite and exarch in the absence of splinter twin or kiki jiki? They both seem like they are better fitted for low power cubes as actual cards.
I forgot about zealous conscripts, thats probably a unique enough effect to not run kiki-jiki.
I forgot about zealous conscripts, thats probably a unique enough effect to not run kiki-jiki.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I Cube Pestermite, it's a decent and interesting card even if you're not up to anything nefarious with it
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
For people that want a kiki like effect?
I still have Pestermite in my cube, I don't see it being cut any time soon. It's been a nice flash threat, has been very useful in certain matchups by tapping down a crucial land/blocker early, and has been a nice value blink target that isn't broken. There's a lot of interesting play to it, I like it a lot.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I don't play Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch. Because they Splinter Twin deck is so prevalent in modern, people tend to get the wrong idea that I support that combo in my cube as well, resulting in multiple players ending up with a crappy UR deck because the color is overdrafted because one player tried to draft a nonexistent combo. Resto and Conscripts are fine in that regard, though I only cube the Conscripts at the moment I believe.
Laz
Developer
I used to do that, now I do the opposite.
I suspect this is because the effect is pretty neat while also being flexible, and the cards are well costed at 3-CMC. Exarch is a very defensive option who is nice to flash in to eat attacking X/1s, while Pestermite is a strong tempo play, tapping down a blocker EOT then acting as an evasive flyer. I guess it has to do with how you perceive your Blue section, whether it is defensive or aggressive by nature.
Red was originally the most boring color in my cube, so I staunchly maintained Kiki simply because it was an interesting red card. Over the last year and a half or so, the color has really changed a lot. White has stolen the crown of "most boring".
I think it's probably time to put Kiki on the bench for a while.
On a side note, it's interesting how Restoration Angel and Zealous Conscripts have risen to the top of my cube's power level.
I think it's probably time to put Kiki on the bench for a while.
On a side note, it's interesting how Restoration Angel and Zealous Conscripts have risen to the top of my cube's power level.
It's borderline. I ran it for a while and it fits in great into UR Tempo (already gave my ticket) shell, and featured in lots of 3-0 lists. It's currently not in there, but I never felt bad playing it.
Yeah, white's super boring. I don't know what to do about it. I should probably push white control more.
There was a sweet Monowhite deck circa old Zendikar/M11 which used Emeria to recur Sun Titan and Pilgrim's Eye. I don't think it was very good, given that you could instead be playing Jace the Mind Sculptor, but maybe something like that could be used as inspiration?
Sun Titan/Karmic Guide/Reveillark/Proclamation of Rebirth and stuff like Pilgrim's Eye/Solemn Simulacrum/Mind Stone, building up to Martial Coup/Decree of Justice/Entreat the Angels. Could work Martyr of Sands in there too but that's probably not great.
Sun Titan/Karmic Guide/Reveillark/Proclamation of Rebirth and stuff like Pilgrim's Eye/Solemn Simulacrum/Mind Stone, building up to Martial Coup/Decree of Justice/Entreat the Angels. Could work Martyr of Sands in there too but that's probably not great.
