Article ChannelFireball: Archetype Design
- Thread starter Chris Taylor
- Start date
whydirt, I will have to give Marshall some ad revenue and give it a listen! Thanks for the visibility into LR.
I think this reddit user provides a wonderful testimony as to why singleton isn't a sacred cow:
Jason, do any of your plans for CFB articles focus solely on design constraints? This one surely touches on them, and I know some of the others do (I've read them all
), but giving it the spotlight might be a good way to work toward acceptance or whatever you want to call the divide that ahadabans touched upon.
and, uh, Fantasy Sets 4 Life. Cubers R Losers
I think this reddit user provides a wonderful testimony as to why singleton isn't a sacred cow:
Tebwolf359 said:
Jason, do any of your plans for CFB articles focus solely on design constraints? This one surely touches on them, and I know some of the others do (I've read them all
), but giving it the spotlight might be a good way to work toward acceptance or whatever you want to call the divide that ahadabans touched upon.and, uh, Fantasy Sets 4 Life. Cubers R Losers
To elaborate more on the divide, I think it stems from the size of the card pool at rare. Consider what that looked like when cubing started. There were just a few hundred cube worthy cards and the power level dropped like a rock after just a few cards at each CMC. Rare lists looked roughly the same because there was really no other way to build them. Fast forward almost 10 years, and we now have cards power maxers aren't even running at 720 which would have been "staples" in 2008. This is a good problem to have as it simply means we have miles of design space when before we had very little.
Back then it made sense to have Pauper/Peasant/Rare as your cube sub categories. Today though, it's probably too limiting across the board. It certainly is for rare cubes. Penny Pincher versus your standard max power unpowered list might as well be comparing block constructed to extended. While creating additional sub categories might be dividing, it could help to at least create a consistent infrastructure that cubes of all types can fit into. I can't help but feel some of the us vs them thing stems from the idea that traditional rare cubes feel like their identity is being questioned by non-singleton lower power rare lists and vice versa.
You go to a Peasant forum and guys are having friendly conversations about cards and aren't all myopic about includes or specific design philosophies. One guy says skullclamp is OP even though it's technically uncommon, and people are fine with that even if they are running clamp in their own lists and have a different view on it. In rare forums, it's not nearly that civil. And it may have to do with the fact that there is less definition around the format. It's evolving and we should get ahead of that.
Back then it made sense to have Pauper/Peasant/Rare as your cube sub categories. Today though, it's probably too limiting across the board. It certainly is for rare cubes. Penny Pincher versus your standard max power unpowered list might as well be comparing block constructed to extended. While creating additional sub categories might be dividing, it could help to at least create a consistent infrastructure that cubes of all types can fit into. I can't help but feel some of the us vs them thing stems from the idea that traditional rare cubes feel like their identity is being questioned by non-singleton lower power rare lists and vice versa.
You go to a Peasant forum and guys are having friendly conversations about cards and aren't all myopic about includes or specific design philosophies. One guy says skullclamp is OP even though it's technically uncommon, and people are fine with that even if they are running clamp in their own lists and have a different view on it. In rare forums, it's not nearly that civil. And it may have to do with the fact that there is less definition around the format. It's evolving and we should get ahead of that.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Part of the problem too is that mtgs forums can be very toxic. It reminds me of 10-15 years ok when I would go onto gaming forums and posters were more concerned with securing their dominance in a social hierarchy than producing good content. Some of those posters have really invested their ego in the idea of cube being singleton, which is weird.
That's probably true as well. Part of this is definitely a personal investment and the baggage that inevitably comes along with that. And I can understand and identify on some level (we all probably can). When I first started researching this format, I spent a great deal of time reading old posts on MTGS. The dialogue back in 2008/2009 was a lot more open. That probably had to do with the fact that things were still in a discovery phase of sorts, so you had a lot of engaging conversation and experimentation. Very much like how things are on Riptide right now, that's how a lot of the exchanges on MTGS were 8 years ago believe it or not.
But then after a time, people got stuck in their view points. They dialed in their cubes and it was less about exploring new territory and more about protecting what had been built (refining it maybe). That's a common tendency with people - we all do it to some extent. And I get it. It's not like power max cubes don't work. They work and I can see the argument that if it ain't broke. I also understand wanting to have a common ground on which to do card evaluation. Problem is, the format is diversifying too much for things to continue as they were. So you either evolve with it or you wither and die.
There may come a day on this forum when things stagnate in a similar fashion, which is why I try to absorb all this creativity while it's still alive and healthy here. I hope things stay this way.
But then after a time, people got stuck in their view points. They dialed in their cubes and it was less about exploring new territory and more about protecting what had been built (refining it maybe). That's a common tendency with people - we all do it to some extent. And I get it. It's not like power max cubes don't work. They work and I can see the argument that if it ain't broke. I also understand wanting to have a common ground on which to do card evaluation. Problem is, the format is diversifying too much for things to continue as they were. So you either evolve with it or you wither and die.
There may come a day on this forum when things stagnate in a similar fashion, which is why I try to absorb all this creativity while it's still alive and healthy here. I hope things stay this way.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The only thing I can think to add to that is that there exists a general belief in the broader mtg community that the higher the power magic = better magic. I kind of attribute that to wotc marketing.
People need to remember great standard formats like kamagawa/ravinca, which were basically peasent or pauper power level compared to SOM standard.
People need to remember great standard formats like kamagawa/ravinca, which were basically peasent or pauper power level compared to SOM standard.
I wish there was more content summarizing Standard and Draft formats of yore. My memory is mediocre (so I've forgotten a lot of the MTG periods I've played through); I've also missed a lot of competitive formats as I lost the desire to spend a weekend traveling/sitting in convention centers.
Also, I would love to see a 450-540 based on CHK-RAV standard :] such a format might also be somewhat affordable. ...oh god, Divining Top is 30$?!!
All good things become self-referential and circular! (circular? I 'ardly... oh, bother. )
It's mostly that moderating requires effort, but then I cover it up with some bs about allowing freedom of expression.
whydirt, I will have to give Marshall some ad revenue and give it a listen! Thanks for the visibility into LR.
I think this reddit user provides a wonderful testimony as to why singleton isn't a sacred cow:
Jason, do any of your plans for CFB articles focus solely on design constraints? This one surely touches on them, and I know some of the others do (I've read them all
and, uh, Fantasy Sets 4 Life. Cubers R Losers
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/breaking-the-rules-learning-from-legacy-part-2/
I kind of feel like writing an article about the cube community. Kind of like the good old days when I spat fire and people loved and hated it.
If you haven't already seen them, the block reviews at http://blog.killgoldfish.com/ are pretty good for this.
Aoret
Developer
I lol'd then and I lol'd now.
ONLY BUILT 4 CUBING LYNX
What Zombies are you people playing? the only card I need to support is Gravecrawler but I want to support it well.
That's it. I'm considering cards like Wretched Anurid and Sarcomancy but black isn't the aggro colour of choice here tbh.
W and R are the colours that often splash the Crawlers so I'd appreciate suggestions referring to those.
That's it. I'm considering cards like Wretched Anurid and Sarcomancy but black isn't the aggro colour of choice here tbh.
W and R are the colours that often splash the Crawlers so I'd appreciate suggestions referring to those.
Skinrender is a good man if you are in the market for another 187 type. Lower power, you've got Twisted Abomination (which also doubles as fixing since it swamp cycles).
Anybody try the new zombie dragon?
Anybody try the new zombie dragon?
I like my rotting rats and fleshbag marauder but then again twisted abomination and pontiff of blight are pretty strong in my cube.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I'll tell ya, the best zombie to return gravecrawler with is another gravecrawler
Laz
Developer
I have recently gone in the opposite direction, and have been purging Zombies from my cube. I am down to 4, and tokens. I have to transform Victim of Night into premium removal some how, though I do want to try the Zomgon... Dragbie? Z-Drag!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Cemetery Reaper is a slow-ish army in a can with some utility past making zombies. It shines in environments that are a little bit slower with a graveyard component.
Risen Executioner is a nice recursive threat. It is basically Gravecrawler's big brother, more expensive, but also better at getting damage through.
Lotleth Troll is a very good card. It's hard to get rid of, and the discard ability synergizes wonderfully with Gravecrawler.
Putrid Leech hits like a truck.
Dreg Mangler hits like a sports car, but makes other cards hit like a truck after it had a fatal accident.
Risen Executioner is a nice recursive threat. It is basically Gravecrawler's big brother, more expensive, but also better at getting damage through.
Lotleth Troll is a very good card. It's hard to get rid of, and the discard ability synergizes wonderfully with Gravecrawler.
Putrid Leech hits like a truck.
Dreg Mangler hits like a sports car, but makes other cards hit like a truck after it had a fatal accident.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Ah yeah, Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Curse of Shallow Graves are also in my cube
