[Design/Construction] Rebuilding my 360...

Laz

Developer
This cube has been rebuild a number of times now, the original post is in the spoiler block below.
Here is the current list:
Cubetutor Link

Utility Land Draft (lands have a 'pick cost' associated with them, for details, see here)

Core Tenet: I want my format to be about 'playing good Magic', and instilling player agency during both drafting and gameplay.

This cube is designed to be quite high-power, where the aspiration is on the outcome of games being decided by the combined results of as many decisions as possible. I have intentionally moved away from running the single most efficient examples of cards in the aggressive, midrange and control theatres towards cards that have far more contextual power, cards that encourage players to make assessments about how to maximise their use, both in the draft process, and especially during a game.

The primary driver for this was to make aggressive decks more interesting to draft and play, a Savannah Lions is always a Savannah Lions, but Seeker of the Way forces sequencing decisions and constant threat assessment. As part of this, I am attempting to open up routes in order to prevent aggressive decks from falling off as hard as the games go on. Copious Dash creatures keep aggressive decks from having to commit to the board as much, and they themselves offer a number of decision points. The sacrifice theme provides options around an exchange of resources, be it the outclassed aggro creatures for damage, or for vertical growth, or even for cards. The presence of CMC restricted reanimation spells, in Rally the Ancestors, Return to the Ranks or even Ojutai's Command provide the option of something of a combo-finish, reanimating the team for an alpha strike past mid-range blockers or adding more sacrifice fodder. Similarly, there are a lot of powerful tempo tools available. These tools require solid sequencing and assessment decisions, but add far more flexibility and reach to an aggressive deck.

Adding all of these options to aggressive decks also ratchets up the number of decisions required by midrange and controls decks as well. This is a result of these decks being forced to factor in the options available to the aggressive player. This concept well illustrated in current standard (KTK+BFZ), where the threat of Become Immense + Temur Battle Rage out of an aggressive deck forces the opposing player to constantly be making threat assessments. To borrow one of Grillo's concepts, the 'perceived pressure' from the aggressive deck is hugely important, and adds elements of bluffing, educated guessing and hedging to a matchup, all of which reward better decision making from each of the players involved.

An odd and somewhat unexpected consequence of moving to more flexible cards is that hard control is somewhat absent in this environment. It certainly feels as though control decks are perhaps more like control in Modern, where the emphasis is on generating superior value as games go longer, than about locking the opponent out of the game.


Building the Scuttle-cube was a lot of fun, and made me take a long hard look at my current 370 (I explained this somewhere, was aiming for 360, while also being too lazy to cut 10 cards...) and realised that I didn't love it as much any more. I mean, it is great fun, but it doesn't feel as refined as the Scuttle-cube from a design standpoint, too many cards which don't justify their existence.

First things first, I am probably going to be overly verbose in this thread, and I know that a lot of the stated ideas will be obvious to most readers here. While this may irk some of you, for which I do apologise, I feel that more information is better than less information, and I would love for this to serve as a primer to this Cube, which may be played by those with less of an appreciation of the points of cube design than the regular riptidelab reader.

I don't know if I want to start completely from scratch, and I will probably port a lot of ideas from my current cube into this one, but a rebuild gives me a chance to explore new ideas that simply would have required me to shoe-horn things inelegantly into my current environment.

Mission statement: I want Cube to have as many layers as Legacy.

Cube Tutor link: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/12399 (Give it a draft!)

I think asking for Cube to play like Legacy is too much, as so much effort goes into creating incredibly consistent decks, with massive redundancy and highly focussed game plans. I want a cube with Legacy-style decision trees, where games are won by inches. As a point of illustration, I feel that the moment I realised that 'shuffles' were a resource that needed to be carefully hoarded and spent for advantages, I decided my current cube was a little ham-fisted.

Lofty goal perhaps, but let us at least allow it to be aspirational.

There are a number of themes which run through this Cube, some as major build-around concepts, others as small drafting hints.

This cube treats the graveyard as a resource, not simply a place for dead creatures and used cards. There is nothing so obvious as Entomb into Exhume or Reanimate into 'Good game', rather the graveyard provides additional options and angles of play, whether it be through cards that can be cast from the graveyard or cards which interact with that zone. Don't worry, Reanimator is still a supported archetype, it is just slower and designed to slot into control or midrange strategies, rather than be the all-in strategy it often represents.

Artifacts are quite prevalent in this environment, and provide a number of options. These options range from a density of equipment for aggressive decks to allowing for the existence of a Wildfire deck. Multiple Tinkers and Tinker-like effects exist, though their targets are not nearly as oppressive as expected from this archetype. Steel Hellkite and Colossus of Akros stand in for Wurmcoil Engine and Blightsteel Colossus, providing solid, but not instantly game-winning Tinker plays.

There are also some smaller themes, which offer joins between colours. These are not as overt as many cube lists, which have wonderful write ups like '{U}{W} is all about flyers! {G}{W} does tokens!' (Aside: I have no idea how to do that, it always seems too isolating from the rest of the Cube). Rather there are a few considerations I have added, which tend to end up focussed in a couple of colours. In this cube, those considerations included the following:
- Sacrificing Creatures
- Instant and Sorcery Density
- Top-of-deck Matters
- Going Wide (having a large number of creatures, which could be tokens)
- Flicker Effects
- Creature Type: Human
- Creature Type: Zombie (ok, so there are Gravecrawlers...)
- Birthing Pod

The above were all represented factors which I held in mind when deciding on cards to include in this cube. There are not optimal decks for each of these themes, unlike say, the {U}{W} Flyers archetype mentioned above, but there will be decks which feature these concepts to greater and lesser extents, and I would like to think, if I have done my job right, these decks will be stronger than those which are simply a 'bunch of cards'.
 

Laz

Developer
Ok, lets start simple. Graveyard.

MTG Salvation: Comprehensive Rules Wiki. said:
Cards in the graveyard are usually no longer relevant to the game, but some decks such as reanimator are built to use or re-use cards in the graveyard, often making it as useful a resource as a player's hand.

There are a couple of extremes here. 'No longer relevant to the game' and 'as useful a resource as a player's hand'. I don't think we want to go to either end here, we are not trying to recreate Vintage/Legacy Dredge (on that note, I am always confused when I see Bazaar of Baghdad in people's cubes, I just don't understand what kind of deck wants that). Then again, the graveyard does provide awesome potential, and dramatically increases deck building and gameplay options, so we are definitely not going with the 'no longer relevant to the game'.

What can we do with the yard?

Put things in it...

Get things out of it...

Get things out of it in a big scary way...

Cast things out of it...

Count things in it?

These are a mere smattering of the types of cards that play with the yard (and I was doing my best to showcase options across colours), so there is a lot of play here, and I think it is worth devoting a reasonable amount of thinking as to how to make the graveyard a consideration for virtually every deck, beyond simply supporting reanimation strategies (and here, zombie recursion...). If we are endeavouring to make our cube play in a similar style to legacy, then we have to consider everything a potential resource, and so it makes very little sense to ignore that which can be most obviously made to work for us.
 

Laz

Developer
Thanks Bob, Spider Spawning has been on my radar since INN limited, where it was an awesome archetypal card. I don't know if it will make it in here, as I suspect the level of focus on the graveyard is over-stated since it is the only aspect I have written about thus far. We will see though, it is a very cool card.

To continue with our discussion of the graveyard, lets throw together a few piles of cards by colour which care about the yard.

Red:
Red probably has the least interaction with the graveyard, and these cards are mostly just value plays. Some of these cards, such as Firebolt and Looting are about providing options and increasing the number of things that can be done in longer games. Looting is also a pretty strong enabler, though while I have two here, I am never that excited when I see one in a pack. That said, I am usually pretty excited to see it in-game, so I honestly am unsure about my evaluation. Hell's Thunder is not a card I have tested, but it seems a reasonable card as I am usually light on three-drops, and it plays nicely with sacrifice outlets. Chandra's Pheonix is simply fantastic, and does what Red wants to do, without being particularly graveyard focussed. Anger is a card that wants to be thrown away, as the front-side is pretty meaningless. Punishing Fire is a possibility, but I am not sure if it can be supported very effectively.

White:
I moved my reanimation suite from Black to White a while ago, simply because it let white engage more with the Graveyard zone, which had the side effect of transforming reanimation from a combo strategy to much more of a value strategy. I have some concerns about the mana costs of these cards, but reanimation costing less than 4 has a tendency to create how do you say 'unfun gamestates'. While I aspire to have this be as nuanced as Legacy, the point I made originally about consistency is paramount. Unlike Legacy, most of the time you are not going to have a turn 2 or 3 abomination of your choice (Grave Titan, Sheoldred, etc), but when you do, the opponent is likely not going to have 4x Force of Wills and 4x Swords to Plowshares in their deck to allow it to remain a game. The game ceases to be won by the result of a number of small decisions.
White lacks the tools to enable their own graveyard, and given the number of high value white creatures, can simply reanimate for value. While a 'combo-reanimation' strategy is still possible, it requires significantly more work, and isn't likely to randomly end the game on turn 2. Instead it tends more towards a 'control-reanimation' strategy, ala Modern Gifts.

Black:
This section probably comes as no surprise to regular forum attendees, and the recursive black threats provide pretty amazing emergent synergies. Bloodghast is one of my favourite cards, and takes very little work to create incredible value. Unburial Rites remains in, despite what I said about the shift to White above, having a reanimation card which can be cast from the graveyard is very powerful. Hell's Caretaker is the creature version of Recurring Nightmare, which crosses over reanimation and sacrifice themes nicely. Whether this one gets the nod over Doomed Necromancer, I am not sure, 4 mana 1/1 creatures don't traditionally have a place in cube...

Blue:
Blue can be swayed towards graveyard interaction by the simple act of selecting card draw/selection spells which dump into the graveyard. Fact or Fiction is probably the poster-child for this, but Forbidden Alchemy digs very deep, while Gifts can range from acting as a tutor, to simply being a double-Entomb. Snapcaster should be obvious, while Body Double is blue pseudo-reanimation, which is pretty damn cool. These cards (excepting perhaps Body Double) really epitomise what I am looking for in graveyard interactions, in that they are very decent cards without explicit graveyard synergies.

Green:
I feel that Green could have a lot more, it is a colour that traditional interacts quite a lot with the graveyard. Perhaps Night Soil? There are a lot of potential enablers, including Tracker's Instinct, Satyr Wayfinder, Mulch, etc. but I am not particularly sure of whether they are too specific and lack, as I mentioned for blue, the 'generally decent without explicit synergies' quality.

Gold:
I am not sure if we should count off-colour flashback cards as gold. For instance, I don't think of Forbidden Alchemy as Dimir, simply because by the time you are getting around to flashing that back, finding a single black source is probably not that difficult. There is no theme to these cards, they are just more of the above, Izzet Charm digs, Varolz gets more value out of the yard, the others just give you more things to do.

Artifact:
I am not sure if there are more interesting graveyard artifacts. These are probably on the line of playability, but I am happy to test them.
 

Laz

Developer
Oh Anotak, I knew I had forgotten something!



I had this one earmarked and everything! How could I forget?

Chandra's Pheonix and Anger were a legitimate oversights though... I will admit I am not sold on Anger, while it is a good card, I am not sure if existing to be put into graveyards is enough.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This might be a good thread to look at it. A lot of the graveyard cards were already compiled there. I referenced it when I was reworking my cube to be more graveyard intensive, and thought it was pretty helpful.
 

Laz

Developer
Thanks Grillo. I am definitely not going as far as Gary Strauss, but there are lots of cards in there which pique my interest.
 

Laz

Developer
Ok, so it is clear that I forgot some stuff, like Fauna Shaman and Grim Lavamancer, but that is fine. Moving on to the next section I wanted to play around with was making Tinker a fun card. There was some writing about it here, and as FSR wrote here, Tinker can be a fun card if you have:
1) A variety of artifacts that can answer problems or create threats
2) A variety of artifacts that are cheap or have temporal value
3) No huge artifacts that can win the game by themselves

Let us see how we can embody these three goals.

Starting with the central cards:

I think two is really the largest number of copies of Tinker that is viable, since it is a card that relies upon having both good targets and cheap artifacts available to sacrifice, it makes large demands of your cube. Assuming two different people pick up Tinker and want to play it, there needs to be quite a reasonable density of artifacts in order to ensure that both players have options. This probably means we need to run mana rocks (which in turn supports a Wildfire theme...) to help reach this density, which is a topic we will come back to in future.

First things first of FSR's checklist, artifacts that answer problems or are threats in their own right. i.e Tinker targets. At this stage, I am thinking the following, all (most) of which are reasonable cards when not cheated out with Tinker.

Tatsumasa and the Colossus are probably the only slightly 'out-there' cards in this list, as the other ones should be reasonably self-explanatory. I figure Tatsumasa being able to give a creature +5/+5 with Tinker (since presumably you will have access to 3 mana even after killing a cheap artifact), with the ability to make a dragon later is good enough (the fact that the sword doesn't come back when the token is bounced is a bit of a bother though, it would have been fine if it was 'token leaves play'). Colossus is interesting, though I am not convinced. I mean, it doesn't just win the game, but it does buy a lot of time (or tragically slips...) and is an awesome (read: super-cool) win condition/ramp target. Can someone persuade me either way?
I don't see Scourglass in that many cubes, but an extra white wrath is probably fine, though its really awkward timing windows definitely put it on the outer, this might want to be a second Disk, or just not be in there at all. In addition to these bigger artifacts, there will be the normal smattering of artifacts and equipment that can be tutored, and sometimes will be fine targets. We are engineering it so that Tinker doesn't just win, so often the middling targets (Pod, Grafted Wargear, etc) will be exactly what you are wanting to get.

To satisfy FSR's second requirement for fun*, we need artifacts that we want to sacrifice. Lets start with the usual suspects:

I love these little guys. They are simple, but desirable across decks as very useful blockers/things to feed to Pods, etc.

In addition to these, we need some decent cheap artifacts with temporary value. To me, the most obvious ones are the following:

Of these, I think there is an interesting balancing act. Tumble Magnet is kind of expensive, but might be strong enough on its own, especially if we have other cards that care about numbers of artifacts. Pentad Prism is weaker than the others, but very explosive with Tinker. I think this is a passable situation though. Prophetic Prism is also an excellent candidate, as it still draws you a card even if you sacrifice it immediately. Other mana-rocks are not as temporary as these, but are probably required in order to reach an acceptable density of artifacts to support this theme.

A question that remains is how far we want to go with this, and will emerge from other choices that are made in this cube. Do the wellsprings (Ichor and Mycosynth get a place? Do we make 'sacrifice a permanent' a thing? I do love some Trading Post...

*:I like the concept of an 'FSR's Complete Guide to Cubing Fun', or 'Fun through 3 Simple Rules'
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I've never had much success with making tinker fair/fun...however on the off chance that you can break the code, there is this guy that loves small artifacts:



And things you could either sacrifice/bounce/recur, in addition to the ones you already mentioned, could include:



Since you have so many cards with charge counters, maybe run some proliferate: grim affliction,volt charge,thrummingbird. Throne of geth is both another artifact sacrifice outlet and a proliferate engine.

Whip of erebos was a reasonable tinker target for us, as was birthing pod. If you want to have some sort of a mini-pod effect with tinker, creature targets could include molten-tail masticore, masticore, lodestone golem, juggernaut, and razormane masticore. And the masticores take you back to graveyard interactions.
 

Laz

Developer
Since you have so many cards with charge counters, maybe run some proliferate: grim affliction,volt charge,thrummingbird. Throne of geth is both another artifact sacrifice outlet and a proliferate engine.

Ha! Thanks for the thought Grillo, but I have already built 'that cube'.


Some of the cards you listed are definitely making it, I mean, who doesn't love Sad Robot? I haven't had very much success with Smokestack archetypes in the past, so I am not sure if I want to go that route this time. Any thoughts or conversations you can provide?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I like having both smokestack and braids cabal minion, because I like having a few challenging build arounds, but I have to be honest and admit they almost never come together as an archetype. I really tried to get the prison decks working, but it just really wasn't worth the effort in the end, at least as an archetype, and maybe that is actually for the betterment of my cube. However, I will vouch for tangle wire as a fun cubable prison card that fits into a lot of different decks.

Also, if you want a more fair tinker, there is this:

 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Having forsaken artifacts and therefore any hopes of using tinker in my own cube, I'm intrigued and excited to see where this goes.

Pithing needle is the perfect tinker card because its a cheap artifact you can trash AND its the kind of card you might just need to search for to save you.

I was talking to a friend about big artifact creatures that don't suck and we both liked Steel Hellkite, Razormane masticore and Dupilicant

I realize all of these cards have been mentioned already, but I wanted to attempt to add something.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I was trying to think of why exactly tinker failed in my cube, to give some idea of what mistakes not to make, and maybe give myself some idea of what would have to change for it to return.

I remember on channel fireball, in one of the magic tv episodes, LSV talking about how he thought demonic tutor was overrated in cube, because unless you were putting together a specific game winning combo, or tutoring up a needed silver bullet, it essentially just increased the cost of a normal card by two mana. In that situation, he argues, it makes more sense to run another value card than invest a slot in DT. An example of that would be that you shouldn't splash black for DT in a mono red aggro deck to tutor for your burn spell--just run another burn spell in DT's place.

I think tinker had that same problem for us. However, instead of increasing the cost of the spell by two mana, it increased the cost by what felt like two cards: the slot you gave up for tinker (which can become a dead tutor), and the card you sacrificed to tinker. If we were playing a value artifact creature deck, or value artifact ramp deck, why devote a slot to tinker->razormane masticore or tinker->gilded lotus when you can just run another dumb midrange creature, or another mana rock in tinker's place? I think that might be the sort of pitfall that caused it to wheel as much as it did.

On the other hand, tinker was great to tutor up for cards like whip of erebos to combine with bitterblossom--but than that is the sort of "combo" situation that seems to justify the investment that tinker demands, without being overtly broken. Pithing needle and phyrexian revoker also both seem very good, and they fall under the silver bullet heading. Duplicant and phyrexian metamorph also seem excellent for the same reason. So maybe what I’m looking for is a broad array of reasonably costed utility/combo cards to justify bringing it back?

The speed of an environment should be another important factor to consider. I can't see staff of nin, for example, being good on its own in a fast environment.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I don't want to be too negative on tinker, since perhaps the problems with it can be overcome. But my experience with Tinker pretty much mirrors Jason's dissenting opinion here, except the value tinker route was underwhelming for reasons already stipulated. I would draw attention to the following quote:

Tinker’s efficacy as a card is primarily dictated by the combination of the following:
- The quality of the targets
- The speed (power) level of your environment
- The density of artifacts in the draft
- The specific array of Tinker targets


When I ran tinker I basically just focused on the quality of the targets--trying to balance "fairness" with "power"-- but neglected the other factors, and they are just as important.

One of the big differences between tinker and every other tutor in my cube--excepting enlightened tutor--is tinker's propensity to become a dead card with every draw. It’s a card that’s dependent on a fraction of a subset of cards being drawn in the right order.

And it’s that running expiration date that makes tinker hard to run as a "value" tutor, and pushes it more towards the "big cheats" style of play. A lot of the value sacrifice targets we pointed out, whether its pithing needle, tumble magnet, or tangle wire, are all cards that want time to extract that value, and the more time you devout to them, the more likely you are to draw into your one or two tinker targets and foil your whole plan. The card wants cheap artifacts that can be immediately sacrificed for value: targets that justify the investment without being broken (and which you want to ETB turn 3 or 4), and it needs both of those showing up in a sufficient density in the draft.

Of course, the easiest way to circumvent all of those problems is just to rush out tinker asap and tutor in an artifact that just wins--and that is what the design of the card is pushed to do. I think that’s my biggest problem with tinker, it tends to gravitate between being either a very poisonous tutor or grbs.

But complaining is easy! I don't know what the exact solution is, but I know from experience, that if you want it to work, you are going to have to take into consideration bullet points 2-3 that Jason outlined.
 

Laz

Developer
Density of artifacts is definitely a concern. Something that I have observed, and that I have seen hinted at by others here, is that non-creature threats really need a watchful eye and a deft hand. My crude approach is to push my cubes either towards artifacts or enchantments, rather than simply run a relatively even split. Doing so dilutes the number of answers far too much.
I never really discussed it in the thread, but in the Scuttle-cube, I consciously pushed enchantments over artifacts. None of the artifacts there really provide the ability to take over a game, or need instant answering. Contagion Clasp, Lux Cannon or the Shrines (Red and White) are probably the closest, but they all require a lot of time to come online. Some of the equipment is reasonably strong, but it can be dealt with via interaction with creatures. On the other hand enchantments range from build around engines (Ion Storm, Ooze Flux, Blowfly Infestation) to enablers (Druids' Repository, Martial Law) to game ending monsters (Genju of the Realm, and, as I discovered the other day, much to my surprise, Homicidal Seclusion). This has allowed me to scale back artifact interaction, and instead push enchantment interaction.

This cube I am electing to push artifacts over enchantments, which is the more typical way of things (even if most cube designers do it unconsciously). I feel I need a critical density of artifacts, not just to support the Tinker archetype I have discussed this far, but also to provide more focus to the cards which interact with non-creature permanents.
 

Laz

Developer
Grillo, I am simply going to imagine that you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of sweet themed cubes and will link to them anytime anyone mentions a related archetype, first the graveyard cube, then this cube, you are definitely contracting the amount of research I have to do. Again, it is a question of extremes, I certainly cannot get away with what Hannes has done, simply because his cube is basically Mirrodin... This makes things like Metalcraft viable, where they are certainly not going to be here. I honestly don't know how many artifacts I will end up with, but I am going to keep in mind that I need to be careful with enchantments, and push incidental artifact hate.

While I am on the topic, my favourite main-deckable artifact handling cards:


If only Rakdos Charm were more like Golgari Charm... (Don't even mention Fury Charm). Also, why does White have at this stage three bears that kill enchantments (Keening Apparition, Kami of Ancient Law, Ronom Unicorn) where Red can't even get one that doesn't cost mana to activate, or has 2 toughness?
 
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