I think it's possible to run exciting powerful cards that impose some constraints on what you're doing. Wraths would be a classic example: you need to think a bit more about how to make them fit, you can't just jam them into any old white deck. If you're playing green, though, what deck can't find a spot for Garruk Wildspeaker? When the exciting cards are also the generically runnable cards, I think the format suffers.
General [Design Discussion] Perfect Imbalance
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Do we really need first picks to commit us so heavily in a direction? I'm perfectly happy to take a solid piece of removal in retail draft, knowing that I can still run it wherever the rest of the draft takes me. As long as we end up _somewhere_, do we really care for it being Pick 1? Players take Liliana of the Veil P1P1 all the time here, but end up in all sorts of decks.
I don't think all first pickable stuff needs to commit you in a direction but if the cube's dense enough in good stuff that five or six picks in you're just picking good stuff, I feel that it's dangerous for you to end up with a powerful deck. I feel picking a strategy and drafting it well should be rewarded: if the generic good stuff plan gets there just as well or better, why bother?
Surely there's some middle ground. Players rarely first-pick Gravecrawler itself, but will first-pick Dark Confidant or Liliana or something and end up in a Bx sacrifice deck.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think its a question of degrees. You want to have people thinking of how their deck's strategy is going to be coming together during the draft, not just lazily stringing strongest cards in the pack together (not saying that happens in your format Jason). You also don't want your cube to feel bifurcated between synergy and powered portions, the powered portion largely negating the synergy portion.
Having a more narrow power band I don't think means running unexciting cards, as exciting is a pretty subjective standard. I find goblin bushwhacker an exciting card, because I know the sum of the parts that it demands is whats going to push the formats power band, rather than the individual card. The opposite would be something like mulldrifter or skeletal vampire, which are generically good cards to get excited about, but represent a small density of the format so as not to overwhelm more synergistic strategies. That results in a deeper draft environment, that maybe is less accessible to drafters, but I like it.
There is also a perception component. Back in 2007, cards like skeletal vampire were exciting. I remember the first time I saw rumbling slum, and watchwolf alongside actual dual lands--I thought wizards had lost their minds. The standard that players have been conditioned to get excited about has just increased dramatically over the years.
Having a more narrow power band I don't think means running unexciting cards, as exciting is a pretty subjective standard. I find goblin bushwhacker an exciting card, because I know the sum of the parts that it demands is whats going to push the formats power band, rather than the individual card. The opposite would be something like mulldrifter or skeletal vampire, which are generically good cards to get excited about, but represent a small density of the format so as not to overwhelm more synergistic strategies. That results in a deeper draft environment, that maybe is less accessible to drafters, but I like it.
There is also a perception component. Back in 2007, cards like skeletal vampire were exciting. I remember the first time I saw rumbling slum, and watchwolf alongside actual dual lands--I thought wizards had lost their minds. The standard that players have been conditioned to get excited about has just increased dramatically over the years.
Totally this.
You can still have cards that are powerful, but promote synergy, and your deck could end up in a few directions. A good example might be Daretti.
I think removal is quite an easy 'good stuff' route to go down, as all decks will want it, but when you start talking about good creatures, and particularly generically powerful planeswalkers you have an issue.
I wonder if there is some player demographic thing here? First picking lightning bolt doesn't commit you to much other than you probably want to be able to play (or potentially splash) red. Is that a spike tendency?
Personally, I love being able to first pick something that pushes me towards drafting an archtype that I like, whether that's Eidolon of Blossoms, or Goblin Welder. Is that more Johnny?
I would feel like such a turd if I first picked Eidolon of Blossoms.
What if you knew though that the card pool had a heavy concentration of enchantments and that this deck was therefore not just a fringe deck but a legitimate tier 1 option if you got all the pieces? Also assume the power level was well below your list (you are excited by seeing Skeletal Vampire).
For P1P1 scenarios, it honestly comes down to familiarity with Cube for me. If I don't know what to expect, I'm just going to pick the strongest card I see that leaves me most flexible. Or just a stupid bomb if I see it. I'll dive deeper with picks if I'm familiar with the cube/format and know of the possible payoff cards that I could see. There needs to be a definite payoff for drafting synergy for me to avoid a goodstuff card early or something that leaves me flexible.
I personally use my own cube sessions to try out fringier archetypes that I've put in and to just play with cards I like most of the time. It's rare that I'll go in trying to draft a perfect 3-0 deck based off an established archetype since I'm at a major advantage having designed the cube. I leave that to my drafters usually, see if they can spot and build up a given archetype if they really wanna go in on synergies.
I personally use my own cube sessions to try out fringier archetypes that I've put in and to just play with cards I like most of the time. It's rare that I'll go in trying to draft a perfect 3-0 deck based off an established archetype since I'm at a major advantage having designed the cube. I leave that to my drafters usually, see if they can spot and build up a given archetype if they really wanna go in on synergies.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Yeah, cubes can really vary. People P1P1 Grave Titan all the time and that's fine. The card is stupidly powerful and a perfectly good. But people often get confused because the typical deck they put Grave Titan in isn't very easy to draft and end up with bad decks because they are trying to make something that isn't there. The reason Grave Titan is appropriate in my cube is because that type of deck is realtively weak, it needs a stupid card as a reward.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Could you tell more? Is there no general demand/not practical to run a 6cc black finisher in midrange or control?
Really? How is that possible? Is your meta just so fast that you can't easily build a deck that simply stalls to 6 mana? Because as soon as that thing comes down, you basically stabilize and win against a lot of decks (aggro for sure outside a last ditch effort burn to the face).
That's been my exact experience with Grave Titan, and the reason I cut him from my list. He fits so easily into any midrange deck as a finisher or control list as a stabablizer (and often finisher). Plus, he's picked early and often enough that splashing for him is never an issue.
I get this. I linked Pascal Maynard's article in a thread a little while ago:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/draft-fundamentals/
"Even though sets are getting more synergy-focused, you want to start with a card that has raw power and that you would likely end up playing no matter what your deck is trying to do."
That said, I find myself quite happy to pick Upheaval or Balance P1P1 in MODO cubes even though both require a little building round. I think some of this comes down to what we consider "raw power". We may be willing to work a little bit for raw power, in the sense of looking to build our deck into a shape that can take advantage of some bomb, but we aren't necessarily immediately reaching for cards that will only actually be great if we are the only player drafting the archetype.
I get the feeling sometimes though when drafting people's cubes that they've got a bunch of neat stuff going on which is completely obliterated by the ability to throw together a collection of powerful cards with some support package of ramp/removal/whatever. And I do think that toning down the good stuff to make your more synergistic or crazily emergent decks pay off better has merits - how much toning down is necessary probably depends on the strength those decks can attain in the cube.
There's a lot I like about the experience of drafting a Tinker/Tezzeret deck, or an Upheaval deck, or a Sneak'n'Show deck: it's just that the gameplay doesn't live up to the drafting, it's short and brutal and someone gets run over quickly. It would be nice to find a place where neither the unfair nor the fair decks are too absurdly unfair.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'll echo alfonso that there is a player demographic aspect to it. Most of my drafters are not very good at the game, just playing it casually, and not all of them approach a draft from the perspective of drafting to win. I have one drafter in particular who will look over a pack, see a card that he thinks is cool, and than become tunnel visioned brewing around it. And I don't think that is unreasonable, quite frankly; this is a casual format with no prize structure. Without that competitive element, every once in a while, even the most disciplined drafter is going to want to go off the rails.
I think there is a good example though of a very high power card you can get excited about, but which still imposes some constraints on what you are doing.
I think there is a good example though of a very high power card you can get excited about, but which still imposes some constraints on what you are doing.
Could you run Sun Titan in your Penny Pincher cube and have that not be a bomb though?
I'm genuinely curious because I've debated on breaking my titan ban for this card. Bu I'm really biased against titans (borderline irrationally).
True story. I liked your post Grillo after reading the first paragraph and then unliked it when I saw you link Sun Titan. Even though I agree with every word written, I couldn't bring myself to sanction a post with a picture of a titan.
I'm genuinely curious because I've debated on breaking my titan ban for this card. Bu I'm really biased against titans (borderline irrationally).
True story. I liked your post Grillo after reading the first paragraph and then unliked it when I saw you link Sun Titan. Even though I agree with every word written, I couldn't bring myself to sanction a post with a picture of a titan.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
There is no way I could run that lol. I was just thinking of highly pushed cards that still have a synergy component.
For the Penny cube, the card would be:
Thats pretty much my philosophy on what a bomb should be: super powerful effect, still beatable, but requires some setup.
For the Penny cube, the card would be:
Thats pretty much my philosophy on what a bomb should be: super powerful effect, still beatable, but requires some setup.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Sun Titan is the perfect example IMO: if it ends up as a powerful but generic finisher in my UW Control deck, that's fine, but I can also construct entire decks around Sun Titan where it's the best and most important card and does all manner of cool things. I'm actually considering doubling up on it the way I do with Primeval Titan.
Grave Titan is borderline. I wish there was a black control finisher that was almost at that level but not quite, as the next tier of options are more narrow or just unappealing.
Grave Titan is borderline. I wish there was a black control finisher that was almost at that level but not quite, as the next tier of options are more narrow or just unappealing.
As cube designers we need to be aware of what we and our players enjoy drafting and what they get out of the experience. It might be right for a group to have a high power level low curve cube that, is very much go for the throat win if that works for your group. Other groups might be much more casual and like to have more build around so. Eidolon was just off the top of my head and I don't run it myself but I was just trying to think of a build around. However I went through the first pick thread to get some quotes that might hopefully illustrate my point a bit more:
I think the "correct" pick is probably Bloodstained Mire or maybe Sidisi, but I think I'd take the Wildfire and go in.
I take Mire b/c I'm boring and I know I'll get something back in this pack. But if I wanna YOLO, I'm going Alesha.
I'm kind of tempted by the Wayfarer's Bauble, but if I'm being honest I think I would take the Jeskai Ascendancy and try and build around it.
I think I would take Elite Scaleguard. That thing is such a beast, and there are multiple cards that synergize well with it.
I'm taking Eidolon of Blossoms, but I can't help but feel I should take a fetchland.
Toshiro fo sho; fantastic buildaround.
In the absence of a true bomb, I think I would take the strong removal and pick Exquisite Firecraft, though I might also pick Eidolon of Blossoms, depending on how solid the enchantment theme is in this cube. I like card advantage
I think if i were in my BDSM-Griefer-Johnny mode instead of my usual scrub-Spike mode i'd take Howling Mine and hope to wheel Terminus or Ojutai's Command.
If I want to win, Wargear or Young Pizzle.
If I want to feel alive, Demonic Pact.
I mean, I totally agree with you. Not trying to discredit anyone, just saying that personally Eidolon of Blossoms doesn't really get my blood running. I see it and think "okay, 2/2 for 4, I'm already down half a card (at least) when I play it. if I trigger it once, it's like a bad Elvish Visionary. maybe I can go off but I'd rather take a card that leaves me more open to other archetypes". Just personally, for me, I am not excited after first-picking Eidolon.
But Rosewater talks about how you can't please everyone with a card, and if you only have generically pleasing designs that it makes for a boring game. So I don't object by any means, I'm just not really the target audience for such a card.
But Rosewater talks about how you can't please everyone with a card, and if you only have generically pleasing designs that it makes for a boring game. So I don't object by any means, I'm just not really the target audience for such a card.
Eidolon is just far too slow for many of our cubes. I've tried to make it work, I wanted it to work really badly, but a cantripping 4 drop is not where I want to be. It's an AMAZING card in my Karametra Enchantress EDH, the first card I'd look for with a tutor, but that only works because I can reasonably chain it into a curve of enchantments at 5+ or multiple plays after T6. It's just not possible in most cubes because you'll usually want to play out your enchantments (which are usually between 1-3CMC) on curve instead of sandbagging them to cantrip.
Maybe if it were altered to 1GG (maybe as a 2/1 or 0/3) it would be more functional in cube? I really feel like you want to drop this ASAP and dork acceleration into T2 would be the only way to maximize its triggers with how cubes are structured curve wise. You can play do nothings T4 and T5 in a battlecruiser format like Commander, can't do it in Cube that often.
Maybe if it were altered to 1GG (maybe as a 2/1 or 0/3) it would be more functional in cube? I really feel like you want to drop this ASAP and dork acceleration into T2 would be the only way to maximize its triggers with how cubes are structured curve wise. You can play do nothings T4 and T5 in a battlecruiser format like Commander, can't do it in Cube that often.
You have a problemTrue story. I liked your post Grillo after reading the first paragraph and then unliked it when I saw you link Sun Titan. Even though I agree with every word written, I couldn't bring myself to sanction a post with a picture of a titan.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Eidolon of Blossoms draws you a card when you play it, so you don't have to wait for it to be a bad elvish visionary. Its a bad Elvish Visionary immediately.