vs You can only have one.
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
vs You can only have one.
And another one
vs
vs 
Languish. It has an awesome full art promo. And full board wipe for 3 is just too good I feel (life loss drawback doesn't seem enough to me). I like Black Sun's Zenith for the scalable effect. It's much less efficient obviously, but you can potentially redraw it, so you get slightly more than one removal spell for a single card. The permanent -1/-1 counters can create interesting board states too (randomly hose persist creatures and buff undying is a cool perk).
Crystal Shard. I like that shard can be played around when used to bounce your opponents creatures. I haven't cubed with Equilibrium, but I'm guessing it's more oppressive. It's also UU, so less splashable. All feel like downsides to me.
Crystal Shard. I like that shard can be played around when used to bounce your opponents creatures. I haven't cubed with Equilibrium, but I'm guessing it's more oppressive. It's also UU, so less splashable. All feel like downsides to me.
Languish because its actually at a good power level for a sweeper and isn't complete bullshit.
Shard because it can be great with only 1 other creature, doesn't require you to have like 2 good etb creatures to really make a good engine of it. Its also kinda cool that it can encourage your opponent not to tap out.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Agree with both of the above posters. Languish and Crystal Shard seem like the obviously not broken choices, whereas both Toxic Deluge and Equilibrium are just a little bit too good at what they do. Equilibrium, as an enchantment, is harder too remove than Crystal Shard as well.
If, however, you happily run stuff like Hero of Bladehold, Treachery, Grave Titan, Sulfuric Vortex, and Natural Order, then Toxic Deluge and Equilibrium are the picks.
If, however, you happily run stuff like Hero of Bladehold, Treachery, Grave Titan, Sulfuric Vortex, and Natural Order, then Toxic Deluge and Equilibrium are the picks.
If your cube has Damnation, then definitely Toxic Deluge. I don't understand why not.
If your cube doesn't have Damnation, then objectively i can see why you would want Languish over Toxic Deluge, still i would probably go for Toxic Deluge. It has more crunch to it. You can't always use it without risk. You sometimes get to use it to save your own dudes. You can splash it better. It just has more play without being insanely good. Damnation is better most of the time.
I would like to know if it has something to do with the monetary thing where Languish costs nothing and Toxic Deluge costs something? Toxic Deluge isn't that insane really.
Crystal Shard > Equilibrium. I like the force spike effect the Shard has. I run both because they are so sweet though and Equilibrium works better with Aluren.
If your cube doesn't have Damnation, then objectively i can see why you would want Languish over Toxic Deluge, still i would probably go for Toxic Deluge. It has more crunch to it. You can't always use it without risk. You sometimes get to use it to save your own dudes. You can splash it better. It just has more play without being insanely good. Damnation is better most of the time.
I would like to know if it has something to do with the monetary thing where Languish costs nothing and Toxic Deluge costs something? Toxic Deluge isn't that insane really.
Crystal Shard > Equilibrium. I like the force spike effect the Shard has. I run both because they are so sweet though and Equilibrium works better with Aluren.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I've found deluge to be way too strong. Double damnnation forever though.
Old Kiora all the way. Does new Kiora even do anything?
New Kiora. She ramps just as well as the last one, draws better and protects herself fine by having more loyalty.
New Kiora looked like she opened up ~unique lines of play~ over Old Kiora, but since I made the swap, she's not really done much but sit and generate value in a pretty generic way. Nobody wants her in 
over here; she's just another cog in 4c Super Friends Control, and worse, she isn't even that exciting in what her toolkit offers (at least, among my drafters, Old Kiora is consider as giving some more exciting decision points). Sure, she's neat if you're reanimator or something, but I'd rather run Sidisi, Brood Tyrant for that. The truth is that my drafters really don't give a shit about New Kiora and tbh neither do I until gets more graveyard tools than some half-baked self-mill deck. I guess she might be better if I was lower power and pushed graveyard interactions harder, but there's a threshold for how much you can put into a format and still make it interesting imho and she requires a further push in that direction than I care to take. I'm super glad if any of yall get her to do some fun stuff, and if your cube is all about the graveyard, then I can see that working out just fine. For me though, I think she represents one of my many cube design mistakes where I've thought I was put in something that generated more options and ~unique lines of play~, but was actually just watering down my format with some unexciting engine piece to a deck nobody but me really cares to (or could easily discern how to) assemble.
over here; she's just another cog in 4c Super Friends Control, and worse, she isn't even that exciting in what her toolkit offers (at least, among my drafters, Old Kiora is consider as giving some more exciting decision points). Sure, she's neat if you're reanimator or something, but I'd rather run Sidisi, Brood Tyrant for that. The truth is that my drafters really don't give a shit about New Kiora and tbh neither do I until gets more graveyard tools than some half-baked self-mill deck. I guess she might be better if I was lower power and pushed graveyard interactions harder, but there's a threshold for how much you can put into a format and still make it interesting imho and she requires a further push in that direction than I care to take. I'm super glad if any of yall get her to do some fun stuff, and if your cube is all about the graveyard, then I can see that working out just fine. For me though, I think she represents one of my many cube design mistakes where I've thought I was put in something that generated more options and ~unique lines of play~, but was actually just watering down my format with some unexciting engine piece to a deck nobody but me really cares to (or could easily discern how to) assemble.
The OG art is still my phone's wallpaper. I may be a little biased.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, the original art is made of pure win.
So are you planning on making the switch back? Is old kiora really less generic than the new one for you? Was old kiora seeing play in your UG decks? It just really seems like you've been let down something fierce, considering probably 50% or more of planeswalkers are almost purely generic value (like look at Ob Nixilis lol). Do you expect less generic mess out of 2+ color walkers?New Kiora looked like she opened up ~unique lines of play~ over Old Kiora, but since I made the swap, she's not really done much but sit and generate value in a pretty generic way. Nobody wants her in
I love new Kiora, but I'm one of those people who adores "grave Impulses" - your Mulches, Satyr Wayfinders, Grisly Salvages, and so forth. RavebornMuse hit the nail on the head by pointing out that she's more of a BUG card than a Simic one, but for the moment I'm more than happy to run some planeswalkers that aren't generic value cards and ask a bit more of you to unlock their potential. The other thing that pleasantly caught me off guard about her is that her minus ability gives you a creature and a land, if you hit both - no small game!
Seriously, planeswalkers are very difficult to fit into ones cube. I personally like Kiora 2.0 because it's difficult to integrate her. Flip-walkers already need conditions to flip, Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is my blue control finisher of choice and the new Chandra is a red control planeswalker. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is for the GW tokens deck, and maybe a bad value card for Gx midrange. The only ones I might want to cut are Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Ob Nixilis Reignited for being a bit too much on the value side, although they fit their colours quite nicely.
Way I see it, new Kiora requires you play creatures while old Kiora doesn't. Just adjust accordingly to your cube's needs.
Some context:
White and black have a cleric theme, red has a goblin (tokens), green has a beast theme, and there are some human elements littered thru all 5 colors. With that in mind, which card would be a better choice? (ie less infuriating to play against but still powerful/useful)
Some context:
White and black have a cleric theme, red has a goblin (tokens), green has a beast theme, and there are some human elements littered thru all 5 colors. With that in mind, which card would be a better choice? (ie less infuriating to play against but still powerful/useful)
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Well, one sucks if your opponent is playing a lot of goblins, the other is awesome if your opponent is playing a lot of goblins (but can still be cleared with a simple removal spell).Way I see it, new Kiora requires you play creatures while old Kiora doesn't. Just adjust accordingly to your cube's needs.
Some context:
White and black have a cleric theme, red has a goblin (tokens), green has a beast theme, and there are some human elements littered thru all 5 colors. With that in mind, which card would be a better choice? (ie less infuriating to play against but still powerful/useful)
The first one is cool if not every colour of yours is tribe-heavy (humans in white, beasts in green and maybe a few goblins in red, wizards in blue, but not too many). That might result in something like 'each player sacrifices a creature' which isn't really where one wants to be with such a card.
The second one is cool if you have like 6-7 tribes across all colours but none very heavily (except for humans), so it's not a total blowout against some enemies.
The second one is cool if you have like 6-7 tribes across all colours but none very heavily (except for humans), so it's not a total blowout against some enemies.
edit: I forgot to mention, but yes, I am switching back to Old Kiora.
Old Kiora has some specific points making her more interesting to me. In the first, grave impulse effects are a turnoff to a lot of players, especially if they lack a generous supply of graveyard tools. Nobody likes binning their Garruk Wildspeaker and their Cryptic Command for the sake of drawing an Island and a Scute Mob. It's a bit of a letdown, really, and if you're
over here, you're likely on the ramp-and-counter plan. Is Explore really better than a grave impulse that can grab one or two cards? Probably not in general, no, not at all, but the grave impulse line of play doesn't necessarily feel better, at least not to my drafters. For reference sake, if you played SOI Limited, you may have seen a lot of players reluctant to draft or play Crow of Dark Tidings, even though it was a really solid card that fueled some of the strategies in the format. Less Spike-oriented players are often afraid of losing their cool, bomby cards to random, self-imposed mill. This effect can be drastically multiplied in a cube environ, where all the cards feel cool and useful, and especially so in a colour pair that often tools its decks around generous space for noncreature cards like counters and draw spells.Speaking of ramp-and-counter, Old Kiora's +1 ability helped buy valuable time on its own, but it also required either board presence (hi
) or some interaction (hi ) to successfully safeguard Kiora, who is either a time-buyer or a good Protect the Queen piece in a lot of scenarios. Compare this to New Kiora, who... maybe generates 2 extra mana a turn (hi Garruk Wildspeaker) or provides 1 extra mana and vigilance for a beater. If she was , I think that ability would be pretty perfect! But in , I'm not sure I've often really wanted for the vigilance. I'd rather just be immune to one permanent Villain has next turn.And speaking of Villain; Old Kiora is more of a puzzle. Very low loyalty, and a +1 that makes it harder to get in, means that Old Kiora can be a real pain in the ass, but is easily handled if there's no presence there to help her out. Meanwhile, New Kiora follows the Pile o' Loyalty approach that I so dislike, and granting pseudo-vigilance when she's not using her draw mode makes her even more obnoxious to crack.
As far as ults go, I have a strong preference for a steady trickle of 9/9's than I do for 3 8/8's and a fight generator. The former is a lot more beatable and thus makes the playing of it more intensive. I've seen Old Kiora's ult get beaten plenty. I've not seen New Kiora's ult ever fired off, because the few times she's been ran since I got her some time ago (and I believe I tend to draft a lot more than most around here), the player would rather just bounce between her + and - abilities.
I know this has been long, but the more I think about it, the more I beat myself up for making such a lazy swap. Was Old Kiora seeing more play? Absolutely! My group loved Old Kiora. I saw her all the time. And why wouldn't I? She does what the pair wants to do in my list; deal with pesky permanents, draw cards and ramp, and provide a win engine if you can keep her safe until she ults. Compare that to some untap shenanigans (what if I don't have anything I want to tap in the first place?), a grave impulse (what if I want to draw noncreatures because I'm more spells-oriented?), and a kooky
pseudo-boardwipe (???), and it's pretty clear to me that I made the swap moreso to be clever than to work in the service of my environment or my play group.And for the record, even though Ob Nix is as "generic value" as he gets, he doesn't really feel that way to me, because he's perfectly on theme for black; life pay for card draw, targeted creature removal, and an ult that makes an opponent suffer for your own progress, like you've passed on some dark pact's downsides. He's pretty flavourful, despite being extremely utilitarian-looking, I think!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
vs. 
vs. 
The original is pretty bad, right? The first alternative is a pretty simple alter, but maybe/probably too strong? The second option requires a bit more altering, but looks like a more balanced option to me.
I like spell mastery as a mechanic, it's pretty grokkable. It's just a pity that on average, the spells with spell mastery on them are pretty average.
Second one might be a bit much, given it's at least Negate with what could be a pretty bit upside with Spell Mastery. I think that version at might be OK? I can't really tell how narrow the last one would be in practice. It seems great vs Black and Red, maybe alright against White but dead against Green and Blue, unless you play a lot of fight and bounce cards. Might be worth testing.
might be OK? I can't really tell how narrow the last one would be in practice. It seems great vs Black and Red, maybe alright against White but dead against Green and Blue, unless you play a lot of fight and bounce cards. Might be worth testing.