Another vote for Silverblade Paladin. He's great. He himself is just a 2/2 double strike. Not overly exciting (though double strike plays very nice with white's anthems). What makes him awesome is granting double strike to other dudes. You can sometimes get blown out similar to Wolfir Silverheart, but the payoff is worth it. It's also a card that epitomizes synergy. It's completely useless without something else in play but potentially broken paired with the right stuff (especially if you can protect it). NWO slam dunk for me.
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Maybe my instincts are wrong, but those seem like they're on very different power levels. I'd consider Skeletal Vamp to fit in cubes with a power level around 3.5~4.0, but Kokusho goes to 6.5~7.5+ very easily, on a hypothetical 10-point power level scale. Enter/exit abilities are super key to making big creatures more pickable in removal-efficient, aggressive environments, and, as boring as Kokusho is, at the very least he offers a guaranteed 10-point life swing for 6 mana. Skeletal Vamp may work alright in decks that want tokens to eat, but even when it comes to a question of sacrifices, Kokusho can be value-sacced for a 10-point life swing under a worst-case scenario; assuming you're feeding a Carrion Feeder, you need to eat gallons of mana to get that much of a life swing out of the bat engine the Vamp provides, and even Goblin Bombardment could only deal 3 out of the Vamp. I think the Vamp's cool, no question about that, but considering power level, if Kokusho is an acceptable fit in an environment, I can't imagine wanting the Vamp in that same exact environment if he was available.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I should have included ink-eyes, servant of oni in my RGD era comparison.
Do you think it depends on format speed? Both Kokush and skeletal were top level black finishers back in Kami/Rav standard, but I don't remember if one was clearly better than the other. In a faster velocity driven format, I could see skeletal vampire strickly lossing out because you don't have time to activate it.
Do you think it depends on format speed? Both Kokush and skeletal were top level black finishers back in Kami/Rav standard, but I don't remember if one was clearly better than the other. In a faster velocity driven format, I could see skeletal vampire strickly lossing out because you don't have time to activate it.
Batman's bat making cost is really high. It was high back then. In cube, it's borderline unplayable outside a really slow cube or maybe a control mirror battle of attrition. When I played Batman, I was running other bats. His regenerate clause is sweet though. But with lightning bolt level burn in cube, even with a compliment of other bats I just don't see how this guy justifies costing 6. Trust me, I want to believe. I just don't.
I've done a lot of playing skeletal vampire over kokusho in constructed. A lot of kokusho's power level was playing it in multiples to create back breaking sorceries or just consistently putting down guys that you cannot leave alive or put into the graveyard and assume you will win the game. I think seeing 2x koko a game is sorta where you wana be at with that card.
Vampire felt more like a wrath that could attack. Being able to infinitely block a kokusho or yosei without killing it was also kinda sweet. Sacing a bat to your vampire while it blocked a jitte equipped creature was also pretty relevant. This deck won with remands and persecute and court hussars though, it wasn't too relevant which 5 cards I had in there to win the game with so I chose 1 debtors knell, 3 vampire and 1 meloku because they felt like they had the most versatility. They were just much smarter creatures than death trigger dragons.
Vampire felt more like a wrath that could attack. Being able to infinitely block a kokusho or yosei without killing it was also kinda sweet. Sacing a bat to your vampire while it blocked a jitte equipped creature was also pretty relevant. This deck won with remands and persecute and court hussars though, it wasn't too relevant which 5 cards I had in there to win the game with so I chose 1 debtors knell, 3 vampire and 1 meloku because they felt like they had the most versatility. They were just much smarter creatures than death trigger dragons.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
oh god I thought batman had 4 toughness
I have a lot of graveyard synergy in my cube, so keep that in mind. IMO, Kokusho is still very scary. It doesn't need to die to win games. It's a 5/5 flyer. Those are good all by themselves. But killing it is generally a poor option too because of the death trigger, so it's a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. Nothing punisher about it at all. And every deck that I run Kokusho in has a way to recur it. Being BBx, it's actually quite difficult to build a deck that CAN'T recur it honestly.
One game recently, I had Kokusho, a sac outlet, Genesis in the yard and an aether vial in play with 6 counters.
It's worth noting too that we play a lot of multiplayer, so my love for Kokusho is certainly colored by that. I'm also not running the 1CC white exile twins.
One game recently, I had Kokusho, a sac outlet, Genesis in the yard and an aether vial in play with 6 counters.
It's worth noting too that we play a lot of multiplayer, so my love for Kokusho is certainly colored by that. I'm also not running the 1CC white exile twins.
Yeah kokusho is great if 5/5 flyers for six are great in your format and you don't like cubing cards with a higher power level than spirit dragons. Always helps if you've got a magical Christmas land vibe going too!
Did I ever tell you guys about my Mirrodin / kamigawa standard footsteps of the goryo and goryo's vengeance deck? Foot stepping a kokusho with greaves in play is like 15 points. You'd win a lot of games on the 5th turn or so by getting a second Koko into play after attacking or sometimes kuro put lord would do the trick. Vengeancing the pitlord was also almost always a great reactive play against tooth and nail.
T1 land mox greaves
T2 land thought courier or discard spell
T3 land zombify or footsteps
The post affinity green control decks had no idea what to do with it but the mono blue match was super weak lol
Did I ever tell you guys about my Mirrodin / kamigawa standard footsteps of the goryo and goryo's vengeance deck? Foot stepping a kokusho with greaves in play is like 15 points. You'd win a lot of games on the 5th turn or so by getting a second Koko into play after attacking or sometimes kuro put lord would do the trick. Vengeancing the pitlord was also almost always a great reactive play against tooth and nail.
T1 land mox greaves
T2 land thought courier or discard spell
T3 land zombify or footsteps
The post affinity green control decks had no idea what to do with it but the mono blue match was super weak lol
I'm sort of beating a dead horse, but I'm curious about this.
What do guys feel is the specific change to the game from let's say 2008 to now that took 5/5 flying dragons for 6 with value on death trigger from auto-include into not good enough? If you look back at forum history, you won't find guys including Kokusho just because there was nothing better. It wasn't Silvos, Rogue Elemental (just waiting to be replaced). Pre Grave Titan, it was a prime finisher that you would snap include in any control deck and maybe even draft control or reanimator if you saw it early in a pack.
I don't mean this question in a confrontational way either. I'm genuinely curious. Cube is evolving. There's no question about this. But what has contributed the most to this? Did cube just get that much faster to where control decks can't win with anything other than Grave Titan style finishers? Is it the impact of walkers on the meta?
I've kept my cube retro as you all know. I don't run walkers, I've intentionally curved power level and speed. My cube still plays like a 2008 cube. And Kokusho is just as scary in my meta today as it was when we first started cubing and it was making top 20 black card lists on MTGS. So what changed to where guys have gone 180 on this card? I personally do not feel like control or value midrange should be getting more than a 5/5 flyer with upside for 6 mana. Completely undoing board states with six drops is unacceptable to me. If you are so far behind that you need a Wurmcoil Engine to bail you out on turn 6, you deserve to lose. Do more with you first 5 turns.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I'd posit that the odds of me winning by ignoring their 5/5 flier are greater now than they were at the time: IE Aggro sucked
Holy crap Lucas, those posts were great. I don't know why I love hearing so much about niche Standard interactions from over a decade ago, but everything you said about those decks is fascinating, and a bit off the beaten path. Also helps illuminate why people who played in that era are so high on Kokusho - the legend rule being different back then certainly played a part (your second Kokusho is a Sorin's Vengeance!).
I didn't realize that Kokusho was seen as so low-powered. I run him in my cube and he seems fine to me. He's maybe a little under the average but he gets the job done for a lot of decks.
I think he compares similarly to Sphinx of Jwar Isle in my cube. Both are 5/5 flyers for 6 that often serve as control finishers. Kokusho is worse in the sense that he can be targeted and removed, but often it will result in a 5 point drain. So Sphinx definitely has the edge there, but then Kokusho can also show up in sac outlet decks. He's an ideal win condition for a recursive-sac type control deck.
I think he compares similarly to Sphinx of Jwar Isle in my cube. Both are 5/5 flyers for 6 that often serve as control finishers. Kokusho is worse in the sense that he can be targeted and removed, but often it will result in a 5 point drain. So Sphinx definitely has the edge there, but then Kokusho can also show up in sac outlet decks. He's an ideal win condition for a recursive-sac type control deck.
I guess over here, black control decks haven't typically overlapped with the black sacrifice/recursion decks, which might be explaining why my evaluation of Kokusho doesn't line up with others. Black control is usually just looking for value cards or board stabilizers in their finisher slot, and are less concerned with maxing out on synergy. Some of the cards I've ran and liked more than Kokusho in control (I realize they're not all 6 cmc but I'm just talking about general finishers):
I didn't even realise I wanted to see more focus on black control on this board until now! My question is, is there even a door open for black control to be able to use the graveyard for value at high power? Too durdley?
I mean, Animate Dead seems like a fine control card if that's what you mean.
Following up a Damnation with a Kokusho ought to be reasonably strong, right? Even without a sac outlet. It's certainly not as efficient as Massacre Wurm most of the time but it still is a solid late game threat/blocker.
Following up a Damnation with a Kokusho ought to be reasonably strong, right? Even without a sac outlet. It's certainly not as efficient as Massacre Wurm most of the time but it still is a solid late game threat/blocker.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
You mean like a more traditional UB dralnu style control deck?
You've got solid graveyard caring spot removal:
Undercosted finishers that benefit from either graveyard count or spell count
attrition value enablers
Tutors to find specific answers or setup graveyard plays
And you can even toss in some mass removal if you wish, one which is even graveyard specific
You've got solid graveyard caring spot removal:
Undercosted finishers that benefit from either graveyard count or spell count
attrition value enablers
Tutors to find specific answers or setup graveyard plays
And you can even toss in some mass removal if you wish, one which is even graveyard specific
At the risk of touching off another page-long debate, I feel like people are overrating a 5/5 evasive body for 6. These creatures below are all that and a bag of chips, yet still see next to no inclusion in cubes. You really want the sacrifice or recursion synergy with Kokusho before he becomes remotely viable.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Blue and/or white decks tend to have lots of ways of dealing with Kokusho without triggering it; red aggro decks can often attack through it with creatures small enough to not trade and give you the lifegain unless you can sacrifice it - it's just hard for the overall package to do much any more. It's nice to be able to recoup life given all of black's self-harming effects though, so if that's a concern then give it a shot I guess.
FWIW, none of those 4 pass the terminate test. You get nothing if they die immediately. I'd play Kokusho over all of them personally.
The horse is definitely dead, but I just keep swinging that bat...
I guess I just don't understand why 6 drops are required to be more than a 5/5 flyer with upside. I know many have been printed and will continue to be printed. If you just look at this from a power perspective, I get the position people are taking. I just don't see why super finishers make the game better. Assuming you didn't completely sit around doing nothing for the first 5 turns, if you got to this point in the game as the control player you should have stabilized already especially against an aggressive deck that blew their wad on Hellrider. You probably wrathed. You probably drew some cards and filtered to some answers. You probably got some two for one action going so you are ahead on cards (card quality if nothing else). Assuming you aren't at 2 life, at this point drop your finisher and win. And pretty much anything will do honestly. Now, if you are staring down a huge board position against you because your opponent's deck is better than yours or you just have a shit tuned control deck, I fail to see why your finisher (one fucking card) should fix that problem for you in one fail swoop just because you suddenly have 6 mana.
I don't want to go around in circles on this (and I'm repeating myself so the value add in this post is already questionable I apologize). But the way I see it, if you have super oppressive finishers that do multiple things (stabilize, play offense and defense simultaneously, etc), all you are accomplishing is moving the game to a more polarized state. By that I mean, you suddenly REQUIRE your aggressive decks to win the game before turn 5/6 or they essentially auto lose the game. Why is this a desirable thing? As far as I'm concerned, the more homogenized I can make the whole stupid ass aggro - midrange - control "theater" nonsense the better.
I will freely admit that this is somewhat a thought product of playing multiplayer and of having a group that gravitates towards midrange. So I'm coming at this from what is likely an atypical perspective.
The horse is definitely dead, but I just keep swinging that bat...
I guess I just don't understand why 6 drops are required to be more than a 5/5 flyer with upside. I know many have been printed and will continue to be printed. If you just look at this from a power perspective, I get the position people are taking. I just don't see why super finishers make the game better. Assuming you didn't completely sit around doing nothing for the first 5 turns, if you got to this point in the game as the control player you should have stabilized already especially against an aggressive deck that blew their wad on Hellrider. You probably wrathed. You probably drew some cards and filtered to some answers. You probably got some two for one action going so you are ahead on cards (card quality if nothing else). Assuming you aren't at 2 life, at this point drop your finisher and win. And pretty much anything will do honestly. Now, if you are staring down a huge board position against you because your opponent's deck is better than yours or you just have a shit tuned control deck, I fail to see why your finisher (one fucking card) should fix that problem for you in one fail swoop just because you suddenly have 6 mana.
I don't want to go around in circles on this (and I'm repeating myself so the value add in this post is already questionable I apologize). But the way I see it, if you have super oppressive finishers that do multiple things (stabilize, play offense and defense simultaneously, etc), all you are accomplishing is moving the game to a more polarized state. By that I mean, you suddenly REQUIRE your aggressive decks to win the game before turn 5/6 or they essentially auto lose the game. Why is this a desirable thing? As far as I'm concerned, the more homogenized I can make the whole stupid ass aggro - midrange - control "theater" nonsense the better.
I will freely admit that this is somewhat a thought product of playing multiplayer and of having a group that gravitates towards midrange. So I'm coming at this from what is likely an atypical perspective.
Does the "terminate test" start to apply at six mana? Honest question, I haven't visited the other place in years.
Also, the reason I brought up the other four cards in comparison is that the crux of the argument seems to be that "5/5 flyers for six with upside should be good enough", and I wanted to point out that that hasn't been true, for about as long as I've been cubing. Whether that upside is a death trigger, activated mass removal, an attack trigger, or something else can be adjusted for the particular environment, but in any case my feeling is that they're all roughly on par with one another. Now, synergy with other cards and archetypes in your cube is another matter entirely; but for plain ol' control decks just looking for value and board stability, none of the options presented stand out particularly in one way or another.
Also, the reason I brought up the other four cards in comparison is that the crux of the argument seems to be that "5/5 flyers for six with upside should be good enough", and I wanted to point out that that hasn't been true, for about as long as I've been cubing. Whether that upside is a death trigger, activated mass removal, an attack trigger, or something else can be adjusted for the particular environment, but in any case my feeling is that they're all roughly on par with one another. Now, synergy with other cards and archetypes in your cube is another matter entirely; but for plain ol' control decks just looking for value and board stability, none of the options presented stand out particularly in one way or another.
I did just cut wolfy recently, but mainly for being boring rather than too powerful. Sometimes he eats an instant speed removal spell, but often he would at least get to offer +4/+4 to another attacking creature before getting killed during my opponent's main phase.
I have to agree with ahadabans, here. I've gone through several iterations of power levels with my 6+ drops, and each time it seemed to make the most sense to lower their strength. I haven't really gotten to a point where it feels like control needs the extra help. Maybe I'm just finally reaching that now, but we'll see.
I have to agree with ahadabans, here. I've gone through several iterations of power levels with my 6+ drops, and each time it seemed to make the most sense to lower their strength. I haven't really gotten to a point where it feels like control needs the extra help. Maybe I'm just finally reaching that now, but we'll see.
My 2 cents... the "terminate test" has generally only been applied to finishers (which typically start at 6 mana). That's traditional thinking though. Today, you can argue that some 5 mana (or even less) can act as a "finisher" (Baneslayer for example), but the cheaper your finisher the less tempo you lose to it dying to a removal spell. Hence why 5 drops tend to get a bit of a pass on failing the terminate test while 6 mana creatures generally don't. 5 versus 6 is only one difference, but it's likely 2 turns to go from 5 lands to 6 lands. I think that's important.
I will say though that you can make an argument against Silverheart because you get nothing if it dies right away. Many (most) 5 drops now give you immediate value simply because losing tempo to a cheap removal spell can be enough to lose you a close game.
As far as those cards you listed are concerned, they certainly could be run as finishers. And they would be fine (I actually really like Nefarox's attack trigger - that to me could be worth the potential tempo loss against some decks). Barring exile effects though, Kokusho gets you 5 life (more in multiplayer) if it dies. That gets you out of the red zone and gives you another turn to drop a second finisher and/or stabilize. That's actually why it's a good card, not because you can abuse it in a recur/sac engine.
All this is how the game used to play. Whether that is still true in today's game, I'm really starting to question.
I will say though that you can make an argument against Silverheart because you get nothing if it dies right away. Many (most) 5 drops now give you immediate value simply because losing tempo to a cheap removal spell can be enough to lose you a close game.
As far as those cards you listed are concerned, they certainly could be run as finishers. And they would be fine (I actually really like Nefarox's attack trigger - that to me could be worth the potential tempo loss against some decks). Barring exile effects though, Kokusho gets you 5 life (more in multiplayer) if it dies. That gets you out of the red zone and gives you another turn to drop a second finisher and/or stabilize. That's actually why it's a good card, not because you can abuse it in a recur/sac engine.
All this is how the game used to play. Whether that is still true in today's game, I'm really starting to question.