Inscho's Turn 2 Cube

[inscho]

Hi Everyone, here's my cube:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/45049

I've been lurking here for a hot minute, reading the discussions, and have gotten a lot out of this community so far. Once I built this new cube, I felt it was the perfect time to start contributing.

As I've mentioned over in Cube Talk, I'm coming from the Peasant Cube subforum of MTGS. The peasant restriction was great at first to give me some clear parameters to work with, but I feel that I've outgrown the format and want more control over my design. Budget was never really that much of a concern, so don't let that sway your suggestions. I've been playing for almost 20 years and have a decent collection to work with.

The starting point for this cube is:
-A playset of both Chromatic Stars and Terrarions
-Two of each Karoo Land
-Both sets of Cycle Lands

To make these more palatable, I've tried to slow the pace of aggro to start on turn 2 (making the eggs function as "fast" mana, and reduce the liability of the cycle lands), lowering the power of removal, keeping value cards to a minimum, and emphasizing tap effects over more powerful ETB ones.

Thanks for looking!

 

[Suicufnoc]

Hey long time to no see! Welcome.

I don't like the 2 mana cycle lands, just try doubling on the other ones?
How about a landfall theme? Bounce lands are sweet for that, and the theme may work at that power level. Maybe plus a few evolving wilds and undiscovered paradise or something.

Executioner's Capsule should be a good fit.
Swap Beetleback Chief for Pia and Kiran Nalaar. Should OK power wise and is super cool.
Bloodsoaked Champion is probably ok.

I'll look more later.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I like the foundation of your format, it's certainly a unique angle. Personally I wouldn't mind a touch more 1-drops in the format, especially considering that if you run land -> bounceland you're not going to have more than 1 mana until turn 3.

As far as power level goes, Meloku seemed the most "above the curve" threat in the environment. Might be a little overwhelming with your lower power removal. I'd keep an eye on that card.

Do you have any decklists from your first draft?

 

[Jason Waddell]

Slower format with lots of cyclers points me to this card:

Probably another vote for some Evolving Wilds if you include it.

 

[inscho]

Hey long time to no see! Welcome.

I don't like the 2 mana cycle lands, just try doubling on the other ones?
How about a landfall theme? Bounce lands are sweet for that, and the theme may work at that power level. Maybe plus a few evolving wilds and undiscovered paradise or something.

Executioner's Capsule should be a good fit.
Swap Beetleback Chief for Pia and Kiran Nalaar. Should OK power wise and is super cool.
Bloodsoaked Champion is probably ok.

I'll look more later.

Hey bud!

My thinking with the 2-mana cycle lands is there's a couple archetypes that could use off color cycle lands for value, but that could be too marginal. Pia and Kiran is definitely more interesting than the chief...and combos nicely with the Eggs. I'll put one in my next order and give it a shot.

I avoided Executioner Capsule as it feels a little strong for my tastes, but I'm open to debating that. It's certainly a house with Auriok Salvagers. Seal of Doom was another black removal spell that I consciously shied away from that could come back.

I like the foundation of your format, it's certainly a unique angle. Personally I wouldn't mind a touch more 1-drops in the format, especially considering that if you run land -> bounceland you're not going to have more than 1 mana until turn 3.

As far as power level goes, Meloku seemed the most "above the curve" threat in the environment. Might be a little overwhelming with your lower power removal. I'd keep an eye on that card.

Do you have any decklists from your first draft?

I'm wary of one drops, but I see what you mean. I need to give it some thought...One drops like Chronomaton and Cenn's Tactician are really how I'd like my 1-drops to function. Lower powered, that have some scale late game, but can still put an opponent on their heels with an early aura. Any one drops you'd suggest in particular?

I struggled to find a blue finisher that felt really felt at home here, and Meloku is my best guess so far. I'm open to other suggestions. Palinchroncould be nice to give Blue a combo out, but perhaps that'd be a little too easy to assemble.

Grim Discovery is a good idea, and makes me think of adding these alongside:




and then I'd really need to research all the landfall cards again as 4x Wilds alongside 20 Karoos would provide a lot of opportunity for triggers.

I saved a few of the decks from the first draft. I'll post them when I get home.

 

[inscho]

Top 3 decks from our first draft:

Naya Piñata 3-0

Dimir Control 2-1

Simic Bounce 2-1

I believe there was a Gruul/Naya Pump deck that was also 2-1, but I couldn't sort out his maindeck from his sideboard.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

There are a few cards that I think the list would really benefit from:





These cards are just too much fun with bouncelands. Cloud also cycles, with gives it some overlap with the other graveyard themes.

I actually think meloku the clouded mirror is probably fine? Its certainly pushed for the environment, but it seems beatable.

There are a few cards I have questions/comments about:

endless one: Why run this over the more interesting Chimeric mass?
glare of subdual: I've seen some people complain that this card feels unfun even in much higher power formats.
ulvenwald tracker: Even at your removal level, fight effects seem inefficient. Maybe savage punch or epic confrontation?
druid's familiar: How is this? It looks sweet, but was oppressive in its limited environment.
eidolon of blossoms: Also, how is this? I want this to be good, but do you have the enchantment density so that it feels really fun?
life from the loam: too durdly?
sylvan library: too strong? Sylvan is an amazing card, especially when you couple it with life gain.
outpost siege: seems way above the cube's power level, and very hard to beat.
barrage of the expendables: no goblin bombardment?
act of aggression/threaten: with slower formats, you can run the much deeper blind with anger and grab the reins. Other threaten effects usually just get played as one dimensional burn spells.
kruin striker: Is this actually good?
humble defector: I'm guessing this is here mostly as a sack outlet, but it seems pretty clunky.
greater gargadon: Love this card, but is it too strong here, or just a pushed threat?
zealous conscripts: Way above the power level of the cube
shaman of the great hunt: I also suspect this is above the power level of the cube.
starfield of nyx: Seems like an overly narrow build around
archivist: is this good? Seems overpriced compared to the rest of the cube.
thought scour: This seems overly narrow, and the format should be slow enough where you don't need something this efficient. Would much rather see compulsive research, which overlaps with both bouncelands, graveyard strategies, and is a solid draw spell.
treasure cruise: Easy first pick, and probably too strong.
Tasigur, the golden fang: My instinct is that this should probably be a Gurmag angler. If Tasigur's ability is too strong, angler is better for the environment, if tasigur is just a body, angler is the better card.
krovikan horror: Love this card, but hope it isn't too slow.


Your one drops look fine. This is going to naturally be a slower format.

Your black section is going to gravitate towards semi-aggressive two and three drops, that either generate value or disrupt, and I far prefer that to running a bunch of 1s that can't block. A few other cards I like, to consider:




For red 1s, a card I really like is



The transform cards are actually pretty neat because they punish slow bounceland starts, but the mana bursts from the bouncelands make it easier to sequence two spells to flip the transform creature. Reckless waif is probably the most interesting of these.

You have the right idea with blue 1s...stay away!

Your white 1s are not too far from mine, though you could probably consider Isamaru, hound of konda if you wished, benevolent bodyguard, or doomed traveler. The last two are also nice graveyard fodder.

You could expand the green 1s a bit if you wished as well, and basking rootwalla might be a nice inclusion, because its a mana sink while also functioning kind of like a two drop.

If you want to upgrade your removal, I think thats fairly easy: there are lots of efficient, yet interestingly conditioned removal spells. You already have a decent selection I feel, though white removal looks maybe a bit weak. The rest I think would just be a question of whether you wanted to increase the density.

Pia and Kiran will probably be over the power level of the format.

Looks sweet though!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I wanted to brainstorm a bit about the lands theme:

1. I actually like the idea of the colorless cycle lands, because anyone can run them.
2. I like the idea of tilling treefolk. In a strange way, I like it quite a bit better than loam, as loam offers no board presence.

You are probably looking at a G/B/x deck:




Than the retrace cards, and other misc. discard outlets:





The bouncelands let you convert early land drops into a resource, and the recursive elements let you pull ahead on card advantage, slowly grinding an opponent down.

 

[Ferritovore]

I'm totes poaching some bits from this cube (and G_P's ideas) since I'm also playing in the low power end of the pool!

2) Removal: One thing I've gleaned from this forum is how much one's removal dictates the cube environment. I'd like my removal to come with decisions and require finesse to get the most out of it. So any suggestions on balancing that out would be appreciated.

I don't own the cards for this yet, but I'm theoretically planning to phase out the best, most no-brainer instant speed removal for either equally great sorcery speed removal or, like you say, tricky techy toys. How do you feel about instant speed removal? One of the drafters here assembled a 12/11 Swarm of Bloodflies with infect and actually was able to swing with it once, even though it got removed with a vengeance the following turn - we were just lucky no one was holding a Force Away, because then the game would've been a lot less exciting.

 

[inscho]

There are a few cards that I think the list would really benefit from:

Thanks for taking the time for such a thoughtful post. On the cards you brought up:

Ravenous rats, zulaport cutthroat, augur of skulls, chittering rats: I'm not exactly sure how I feel about the redundancies here with what's already included.
Cloud of faeries, snap, and peregrine drake: Agreed, these could all come in.
Reckless waif: Love this card, and the only reason I haven't included it is due mostly to the awkwardness of pulling it out of the sleeve and putting it back. My cube is double sleeved.
Basking rootwalla: Green one drops I'd considered were Twinblade Slasher (which I like more than the lizard) and Skarggan Pit-Sulk. Is Experiment One too good?
Endless one: Chimeric Mass is already in the cube, and Endless One is a solid on curve beater for the +1/+1 counters decks . I like that it's generally versatile enough to plug a hole in most decks. It could certainly be something else.
Glare of subdual: I brought this in, because I can't support Opposition . Glare gives the token decks a fresh, more controlling dynamic. I don't have any real experience with it, so it could prove too strong.
Ulvenwald tracker: Epic Confrontation is already in. Tracker was an included alongside when the Phantom Creatures in an earlier draft (and could still come back)
Druid's familiar: I loved it in Peasant Cube, so I assume that I'll love it here. It was totally fair in my old cube as the removal was much stronger and it's pretty easy to blow someone out with a well timed removal spell. Given that my removal is much worse here, it could be a touch on the strong side, but I think it's pretty fair.
Eidolon of blossoms: Maybe not adequately supported enough as it is. It's hard to say...I'm running a good chunk of enchantments. I want enchantments to be a thing, but I don't want to devote a ridiculous amount of space to support it.
Life from the loam: Borderline durdletown, but it's a serious draw engine with the cycle lands. I want to keep it in regardless. It's so flexible and thematic.
Sylvan library: When shuffle effects are few and far between, Library's stock goes way down. I think it's fair for now and triggers the draws matters dudes: lorescale coatl, Chasm skulker, and psychosis crawler
Outpost siege: It's quite possibly overpowered...it was very strong last draft. I'd like to keep some type of card engine for red. Outpost was seemed perfect with its crossover with the sacrifice and token decks. Alternatives?
Barrage of the expendables: I felt that free sac cost of bombardment might be a little too savvy for the cube, but perhaps that's an unnecessary downgrade?
Act of aggression/threaten: Grab the Reins is very interesting to me...especially against the pants archetype. Although, I hate that it doesn't untap....I'll think about it. Threaten effects are much more than burn to the face as they remove a blocker for a turn, and are functional removal when combined with sacrifice effects. Given that my sac effects are largely inefficient, it seemed important to keep this effects on the affordable side.
Kruin striker: Synergizes with tokens and the trample is relevant with pump effects. It was pretty bad in Peasant Cube, so it could also be bad here. This was mostly an attempt to bring some depth to aggro.
Humble defector: Like Kruin Striker, my hope was that a piker would be a reasonable enough body for this format. Defector has game with blink, bounce, sacrifice, untap effects, and just seems like a lot of fun. I haven't seen it in action yet.
Greater gargadon: Given how slow the cube is and the lack of trample, I think this dude is good but pretty fair.
Zealous conscripts: Probably right. I have no prior experience with it.
Shaman of the great hunt: Wasn't much of a problem in the first draft and I saw it across the table a few times. It's hard to find interesting aggressive cards that aren't pushing the power limit. The fair aggro guys are so boring. Shaman was initially Hero of Oxid Ridge.
Starfield of nyx: With the bestow creatures, enchantment based removal, reanimation, and auras I think this is reasonable. Over 10% of the cards in my cube are enchantments. This may not work out, but I'd like to give it a chance first.
Archivist: Probably too weak, and left over from a weaker draft of the cube.
Thought scour: I already have Thirst for Knowledge and Frantic Search so Compulsive Research only comes in at the expense of one of the others. This could be something else for sure.
Treasure cruise: Will probably make this Stroke of Genius to give blue an alternative win-con with Karoo untap effects.
Tasigur, the golden fang: The activated ability isn't terribly overpowered here. Gurmag could be better, but the potential for sinking mana late game is more worthwhile to me. I try to squeeze in as ways to use all that Karoo mana in the mid-late game.
Krovikan horror: Love this dude. If it is too slow, I want to slow my environment down enough to make it playable

 

[inscho]

I wanted to brainstorm a bit about the lands theme:

1. I actually like the idea of the colorless cycle lands, because anyone can run them.
2. I like the idea of tilling treefolk. In a strange way, I like it quite a bit better than loam, as loam offers no board presence.

You are probably looking at a G/B/x deck:




Than the retrace cards, and other misc. discard outlets:





The bouncelands let you convert early land drops into a resource, and the recursive elements let you pull ahead on card advantage, slowly grinding an opponent down.

This is definitely along the lines of what I was thinking.

Is this too good?


I would normally think it would be, but there's not a lot of ways to abuse this here. It could just represent a lot of value with retrace, cycle lands, manlands, and filtering draw effects.

 

[ossa]

I'm totes poaching some bits from this cube (and G_P's ideas) since I'm also playing in the low power end of the pool!

I don't own the cards for this yet, but I'm theoretically planning to phase out the best, most no-brainer instant speed removal for either equally great sorcery speed removal or, like you say, tricky techy toys. How do you feel about instant speed removal? One of the drafters here assembled a 12/11 Swarm of Bloodflies with infect and actually was able to swing with it once, even though it got removed with a vengeance the following turn - we were just lucky no one was holding a Force Away, because then the game would've been a lot less exciting.

You could just put a mana-premium on instant speed, stuff like stoke the flames, volt charge, or brimstone volley versus the cheaper but sorcery speed volcanic hammer, tribal flames or firebolt.

 

[Suicufnoc]

I'm gonna give crucible a shot in my cube (running 21 fetches). I just cut all the wastelands, so I'm hoping that makes it fair enough. I want lands to be a deck.

 

[Suicufnoc]

You could just put a mana-premium on instant speed, stuff like stoke the flames, volt charge, or brimstone volley versus the cheaper but sorcery speed volcanic hammer or firebolt.

This. I roughly follow:
1 Mana Instant - 1 damage
1 Mana Sorcery - 2 damage
2 Mana Instant - 2 damage
2 Mana Sorcery - 3 damage
3 Mana Instant - 3 damage
3 Mana Sorcery - 4 damage
4 Mana Instant - 4 damage

And use as a baseline for the other removal. I think lightning strike is my last offender, maybe I'll cut that...

Oh and Glare of Subdual is definitely too strong. Also Basking Rootwalla is waay coolor than Twinblade Slasher, shame on you.



I think Bloodghast is probably too good.

 

[inscho]

What ossa and suicufnoc said is similar to the rule I follow...with an exception for highly context dependent removal that can scale drastically depending on the deck (like harvest pyre).

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Sorry about that, I did a few drafts and noticed a few cards that I thought weren't in, were actually in.

I felt that the one drops were fine, so its really up to you if you want to expand on them. I think you have the right idea to only do it if they are cards that add otherwise to the environment. Removal did feel a little on the light side on the draft, so maybe keep an eye on that when you do the RL drafts. Its always hard to get a feel for these things just in CT.

There were a few cards I found myself missing in the draft



I think goblin bushwhacker (and maybe flame-kin zealot) are what you are looking for in terms of aggro dudes. With all of the token generation you have, these cards would just be sick, and are a huge payoff for going down an aggro line. I really like it when aggro strategies have access to burst damage enablers (hence the become immense and vines), as they allow those decks to advance a valid game plan even when falling behind, and keeping otherwise dull game states lively.

The decks from the drafts looked like a lot of fun to play, though I found myself wanting some sort of non-bounceland duel when going down an aggro line, or perhaps some number of evolving wilds/terramorphic expanse, so as to supplement the eggs. I think those decks can largely get by off of a 2 color mana base, supplemented with some eggs, but there will be drafts where a midrange or control player is prioritizing those cards. The cube tutor bots, thankfully, haven't figured out how good they are yet.

I really like how there was a feeling of a graveyard theme, but the cube didn't really push you down that route: something that I think will extend out replayability. I will have to do some more drafts to get an idea how those decks draft.

Glare looks pretty busted by the way:

G/W Glare from CubeTutor.com

When you consider the combination of:

1. High density of white token producers.
2. That this is a midrangy format, and glare is a midrangey card.
3. Enchantments are generally difficult to remove in cube.

A resolved glare can result in some nearly unbeatable board states, I am guessing.

There are a lot of cool interactions in the deck though, and I like how Vinelasher Kudzu is actually a good card, due to the bouncelands, and ranger.

 

[Jason Waddell]

If you're going to care about lands in graveyards.....

 

[inscho]

Glare looks pretty busted by the way:

OK. You got me. It's out

I added a lot of the suggested cards including support for the Golgari Land deck, 4 Evolving Wilds, the blue untap effects, and trimmed some of the other disproportionately powerful cards that have been pointed out.

A couple cards I'm now thinking about are:


I'm also trying to think of ways to make the counters matter deck more appealing. It's looking a little sad in comparison to other archetypes. Suggestions?

 

[Laz]

I'm also trying to think of ways to make the counters matter deck more appealing. It's looking a little sad in comparison to other archetypes. Suggestions?

Search "pitches to force" in the cube discussion forum. Don't ask why.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Search "pitches to force" in the cube discussion forum. Don't ask why.

This is better advice then it sounds

 

[Ferritovore]

I had to websearch it.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Empty was a little too narrow for my tastes. Its ok to run some more narrow cards, but you have to be careful that there aren't so many they begin diluting the draft mechanics.

Anyways, I did a few drafts, and it felt smoother this time. I had a few thoughts about one of the aggro decks I drafted up:

R/W Aggro from CubeTutor.com

I moved the curve around to more accuratly reflect how I think I would be spending mana, but:

1. There aren't many combat buffs in red or white, so the double strike creatures in those colors are sort of awkwardly positioned where you have to go into green to support them. The mana fixing for aggressive decks isn't good enough to really support three color aggro. This is my main complaint, especially since that fencing ace in the cube needs combat buffs.

2. There is a a lot of 1/1 token generation in the cube. You could probably afford to tone down on some of it

3. Barrage of expendables looks somewhat anemic here. There are a lot of and spells the deck has to contend with already, and now it has to pay everytime it wants to sacrifice something in response.

This deck ended up with a good burn/removal selection, but it felt a little scary at times during the draft. I ended up prioritizing the devouring light, volcanic hammer, and volt charge as picks because I know removal can be sparse. I feel that the deck could have been much worse had I not already known that. I'm a little worried that there is no flame slash or roast in the cube list (or the deck) to deal with midrange beef. I feel that in certain matchups I am going to be overly dependent on drawing devouring light.

 

[inscho]

Search "pitches to force" in the cube discussion forum. Don't ask why.

Nice!

Just made the following subs for the Counters Theme

Out:




In:



Hopefully they won't prove too strong. I like that they are both playable outside of the counters archetype. Woodland Wanderer seems like a lot of fun with the eggs, and trample is relevant for pants and pump strategies.

Empty was a little too narrow for my tastes. Its ok to run some more narrow cards, but you have to be careful that there aren't so many they begin diluting the draft mechanics.

1. There aren't many combat buffs in red or white, so the double strike creatures in those colors are sort of awkwardly positioned where you have to go into green to support them. The mana fixing for aggressive decks isn't good enough to really support three color aggro. This is my main complaint, especially since that fencing ace in the cube needs combat buffs.

2. There is a a lot of 1/1 token generation in the cube. You could probably afford to tone down on some of it

3. Barrage of expendables looks somewhat anemic here. There are a lot of and spells the deck has to contend with already, and now it has to pay everytime it wants to sacrifice something in response.

This deck ended up with a good burn/removal selection, but it felt a little scary at times during the draft. I ended up prioritizing the devouring light, volcanic hammer, and volt charge as picks because I know removal can be sparse. I feel that the deck could have been much worse had I not already known that. I'm a little worried that there is no flame slash or roast in the cube list (or the deck) to deal with midrange beef. I feel that in certain matchups I am going to be overly dependent on drawing devouring light.

1. Any ones in particular you suggest?



??


2. Is it really that much? 6 in white, 3 in red, 5 in green, 1 in Boros...

Other changes made:
Out:




In:

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

1. The DS is going to be a little messy. You seem to have a decent density of triggers for hero. I think because so many of the white triggers are auras I just didn't see them in the pack. Usually, with hero, I like to play reactive instants that disrupt removal. The density of effects for raw double strike, however, seems very low with only a couple in those colors, and a few pieces of equipment. It would probably be easiest to just cut fencing ace.

2. By my count, you're 14%, 10%, 18% in white, red, and green for token makers (of various calibers), which is huge. There is some space there for cuts; for example, I doubt you need both geist honored monk and triplicate spirits.

Swaps look good.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Swaps look good apart from the counters swaps. Both Elite Scaleguard and Cytoplast Root-kin are counters cards that encourage you to play other cards that have counters, counter-lords if you will. If you want pitches to force to be a thing in your cube I would try and find alternative cuts.

High sentinels is okay, but I've actually found it less to be something that encourages +1/+1 counter decks and just a fat flyer. Woodland Wanderer is just a fatty that encourages more colours and takes up a valuabe 4 drop slot IMO.