Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
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One reason this is a little hard for me to grok is the the cards seem to work differently, from my point of view. I see the necromancer returning something with an ETB effect and also getting a turn of damage off it. Tie in to blink is apt, I think. The ooze seems to me to work better with the effects we are looking at, but also just a general deck structure built around providing a toolbox of effects.
My cube would probably want necromancer to return:
Some cool toolbox effects that help a Ooze plan out. Would probably want some cresture search tools to get the ooze in play, maybe Eldritch Evolution. Anyway:
And to the OP question:
My cube would probably want necromancer to return:
Some cool toolbox effects that help a Ooze plan out. Would probably want some cresture search tools to get the ooze in play, maybe Eldritch Evolution. Anyway:
And to the OP question:
Reasonable with either of those effects
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I'm fond of:
Thank you, everyone for contributing ideas that bridge the abilities of Apprentice Necromancer and Necrotic Ooze!
I think it's safe to conclude the following are desirable traits / abilities for the two cards:
I didn't see anything like Aetherling that appears remotely interactive, unfortunately. I think returning a creature to its owners hand is the best "fair" protection for which we can hope.
Due the nature of limited formats, I would want overlap in almost all of the pure graveyard fodder cards. It seems wasteful to include a fatty from which only Necromancer benefits. I suppose that Ooze has a lot more "healthy" synergy inclusions, so there is an argument to have a *small* amount of Necromancer-only cards (that maybe see play in green-based ramp as well). It's also a bit amusing to imagine Ooze using the Necromancer's ability. (Is there a sacrifice loop combo to be had here?)
For reference, this conversation was spurred by nonwhite grid rough draft featuring both cards. In a 162 card grid, I'd imagine 4-9 cards that are 6cmc+ and would interact with both Ooze/Necromancer. Several lower cmc cards from each color should interact with Ooze, but I'd also like to see a few evoke/cycling creatures to leverage the Necromancer at lower "cmc"s. Birthing Pod, Eldritch Evolution, Corpse Connoisseur or Buried Alive could be the backbone of such a package.
I think it's safe to conclude the following are desirable traits / abilities for the two cards:
- Necromancer: High power (with some form of evasion); high-impact ETB/LTB effect (with activated abilities counting given the haste-granting effect of Necromancer); blink/Stifle to circumvent sacrifice clause
- Ooze: High-impact activated ability (preferably repeatable)
I didn't see anything like Aetherling that appears remotely interactive, unfortunately. I think returning a creature to its owners hand is the best "fair" protection for which we can hope.
Due the nature of limited formats, I would want overlap in almost all of the pure graveyard fodder cards. It seems wasteful to include a fatty from which only Necromancer benefits. I suppose that Ooze has a lot more "healthy" synergy inclusions, so there is an argument to have a *small* amount of Necromancer-only cards (that maybe see play in green-based ramp as well). It's also a bit amusing to imagine Ooze using the Necromancer's ability. (Is there a sacrifice loop combo to be had here?)
For reference, this conversation was spurred by nonwhite grid rough draft featuring both cards. In a 162 card grid, I'd imagine 4-9 cards that are 6cmc+ and would interact with both Ooze/Necromancer. Several lower cmc cards from each color should interact with Ooze, but I'd also like to see a few evoke/cycling creatures to leverage the Necromancer at lower "cmc"s. Birthing Pod, Eldritch Evolution, Corpse Connoisseur or Buried Alive could be the backbone of such a package.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Tested Wisps as a cheap cantrip in white, didn't do much.
Laz
Developer
The one I've had moderate luck with is
Which has played a decent enough role in tempo decks.
Casting it in declare attackers, targeting their blocker and your Heroic creature is the dirtiest feeling.
Then you get to do it again next turn.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
If you're looking for inspiration for cheap blue card draw, I have just the post for you 
Omen is a bad Ponder, and people will evaluate it as that. You'll always have the feeling you're overpaying by for that effect.
Words of Wisdom is an instant, which is nice, as that means you get to use the cards first. That said, it always feels bad to give your opponent free cards.
Manipulate Fate seems... bad? In the late game exiling three lands is obviously nice, but this isn't something you can play on turn 2 I reckon.
See Beyond is decent, actually, as you can shuffle away a late game threat that you can't cast for the next few turns anyway and keep relevant early game interaction. That said, it isn't card advantage, because you draw two and lose two (See Beyond itself and the card you shuffle back).
Other options I like in this context are...
I think all of these work quite well in a lower power environment. Strategic Planning is nice in graveyard based strategies, Telling Time is just a quality card quality improvement card (heh, nice sequence of words), Think Twice provides straight up card advantage across two turns, is an instant, and plays well with self-mill and the like, and Treasure Hunt draws a business spell every time. I think I like all of these better than your four, except maybe See Beyond.
Omen is a bad Ponder, and people will evaluate it as that. You'll always have the feeling you're overpaying by
for that effect.Words of Wisdom is an instant, which is nice, as that means you get to use the cards first. That said, it always feels bad to give your opponent free cards.
Manipulate Fate seems... bad? In the late game exiling three lands is obviously nice, but this isn't something you can play on turn 2 I reckon.
See Beyond is decent, actually, as you can shuffle away a late game threat that you can't cast for the next few turns anyway and keep relevant early game interaction. That said, it isn't card advantage, because you draw two and lose two (See Beyond itself and the card you shuffle back).
Other options I like in this context are...
I think all of these work quite well in a lower power environment. Strategic Planning is nice in graveyard based strategies, Telling Time is just a quality card quality improvement card (heh, nice sequence of words), Think Twice provides straight up card advantage across two turns, is an instant, and plays well with self-mill and the like, and Treasure Hunt draws a business spell every time. I think I like all of these better than your four, except maybe See Beyond.
Strategic Planning is very good for any deck that cares even fractionally about the GY. And I am starting to think See Beyond is also a tad under the radar. Being able to shuffle away the not-so-relevant thing early with a chance to draw it later, when you do want it, seems very good. Similarly with a late game dud you never want to see again. Fits very well into Grillo's work on 'programmable' decks in RTL cubes.
If you're looking for inspiration for cheap blue card draw, I have just the post for you
Omen is a bad Ponder, and people will evaluate it as that. You'll always have the feeling you're overpaying by
Words of Wisdom is an instant, which is nice, as that means you get to use the cards first. That said, it always feels bad to give your opponent free cards.
Manipulate Fate seems... bad? In the late game exiling three lands is obviously nice, but this isn't something you can play on turn 2 I reckon.
See Beyond is decent, actually, as you can shuffle away a late game threat that you can't cast for the next few turns anyway and keep relevant early game interaction. That said, it isn't card advantage, because you draw two and lose two (See Beyond itself and the card you shuffle back).
I think all of these work quite well in a lower power environment. Strategic Planning is nice in graveyard based strategies, Telling Time is just a quality card quality improvement card (heh, nice sequence of words), Think Twice provides straight up card advantage across two turns, is an instant, and plays well with self-mill and the like, and Treasure Hunt draws a business spell every time. I think I like all of these better than your four, except maybe See Beyond.
Thanks for the link! I'll definitely mull it over. Think Twice is definitely my favorite so that one was in before I even posted haha.
I like that Omen is a bad Ponder but I agree that it make drafters feel bad about overpaying.
I agree about Words of Wisdom.
This was my reasoning for asking about Manipulate Fate. It seems like a nice way to reprogram your deck that feels like a more proactive. Not being able to guarantee what you draw could kill the idea though.
See Beyond is neat. I like that it allows you to get rid of things without having them become permanently inaccessible in the future. If you don't have a way to get it back, discarding something like Torrential Gearhulk(I know it's not low power) can feel really bad.
Treasure Hunt seems like it could be a lot of fun. I could see a lot of good moments coming out of drawing through a pocket of like 7 lands.
I have a soft spot for Telling Time because I got to play it Scapeshift for a few months before Anticipate got printed. I like that it gives you a lot of options and kind of feels like a poor man's Brainstorm.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Does anyone have any opinions on these? I'm looking at putting together a lower powered draw suite for new cube.
Can you be a little bit more specific as to what you are looking for? These are all really weird cards, and I would only be serious about any of them in a truly limited format just because of the bad optics (though see beyond is probably fine). Please don't run brainstorm as its just a clunky version of what you're trying to do more eloquently, and is just an unsuitable card for cube in general.
This is what I was looking at for a similar project:
Sifters:
Ideas unbound is the card with the worst optics on it (though there is no 4th sifter with good optics here). I might run the see beyond instead, or one of the below.
Conditional CA sifters-not sure I want to run these:
Because people usually just hold until they can meet the condition, rather than using them for looting, and requiring specific discards makes them weaker as reprogrammers.
Big Draw
Than I was going to flesh this out with:
These are generally on theme. TT is a good control card smoother, so it helps fill the void left by the cantrips, but slants us towards slower games due to its mana inefficiency.
I wouldn't run TOL manipulators in blue at all, as we can now shift this focus to another color--green:
Our slower grave pulses designed to ensure we get guaranteed hits on our draws.
If you had to run TOL manipulation in blue, I would probably run:
Opt and visions are fine as more proactive cards, but existing beneath the (absurd) power levels of ponder and preordain. Impulse is a very strong card, but at least has the benefit of being a card you want to hold, though it makes our grave pulses look rather bad.
That is exactly the blue cantrip-suite of my cube: 2x Opt, 2x Serum Visions, 1x Impulse. Along comes a single Mystic Speculation.
I do not want my blue cantrips to be the strictly better choice all the time. I doubled up on Magmatic Insight and Oath of Nissa so blue ain't the only colour providing cheap card quality. I also doubled up on scry cards like Magma Jet and Condescend and am currently thinking about doing the same with Read the Bones. I just love Scry, if you keep your power level low it's providing fun games.
I do not want my blue cantrips to be the strictly better choice all the time. I doubled up on Magmatic Insight and Oath of Nissa so blue ain't the only colour providing cheap card quality. I also doubled up on scry cards like Magma Jet and Condescend and am currently thinking about doing the same with Read the Bones. I just love Scry, if you keep your power level low it's providing fun games.
I'm planning on incorporating most of the options that you listed. I was looking mainly for a 2 cmc spell to supplement Think Twice. See Beyond was my favorite with Telling Time following. I wanted to see what others had to say about some more obscure cards that I had found to see if there was possibly anything interesting. In my research I came across this that I don't think I've seen anyone discuss either here or in the cube blogs.
It has a synergies with Planeswalkers, but besides that it's Thirst for Knowledge and Compulsive Research at sorcery speed without the card type riders. The only downside I think is that you can't flash it back or recycle it without destroying it first.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Ok, that makes a lot of sense. Coming from the frame of think twice being in a cube primarily as an instant speed, control oriented draw smoother, the first thing that popped into my head was:
Felt really good to image tag that card.
Buyback on whispers is so expensive though. Not sure where the power level has to drop to for that to be worth a card.
I just got done arguing for onslaught cycle lands, which is what Muse is 99% of the time. Thing is you can still use the cycle land as an actual land if you need it. It costs you, but it's an option that's not unreasonable. Unless you have a serious mana engine going, using Muse as a draw engine is just not practical. Even in lower powered cubes, you have to have something better to do with 6 mana than draw a card at the end of your opponents turn.
Point is, you'd be better off in almost every case just running Lonely Sandbar. It doesn't even cost you a spell slot.
I just got done arguing for onslaught cycle lands, which is what Muse is 99% of the time. Thing is you can still use the cycle land as an actual land if you need it. It costs you, but it's an option that's not unreasonable. Unless you have a serious mana engine going, using Muse as a draw engine is just not practical. Even in lower powered cubes, you have to have something better to do with 6 mana than draw a card at the end of your opponents turn.
Point is, you'd be better off in almost every case just running Lonely Sandbar. It doesn't even cost you a spell slot.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Mostly irrelevant plug:
This is another one of my "This should be more powerful because you have to spend a draft pick on it" lands. I much prefer some number of these to 5 individual cycling lands though.
This is another one of my "This should be more powerful because you have to spend a draft pick on it" lands. I much prefer some number of these to 5 individual cycling lands though.
I'm caving in the horse's skull right now with a sledgehammer, but I want to make sure it's good and dead...
Cycle lands look like crap. But here's the thing, they are the intersection where theory-crafting and magical Christmas land meet reality. I don't care how tight your drafting and deck buiiding skills are or how fantastically aggressive you are with your mulligans. There are games you wind up with hands that don't play well.
Would you prefer to have a land that doesn't ETB tapped? Of course. I'd prefer the land was an ABU dual probably or something even more broken. But there are too many times (I find anyway), where the game is going to just be over if you don't either play an ETB tapped land or don't get the card you need on the next draw (or right now). And being able to cycle for stupid cheap or play these as a slow colored mana source - in actual game play and not in magical christmas land goldfish world where all my cards fall together like a spy novel - is hugely powerful.
Maybe the tightest cubes lists where Karmic Guide is chaff can't afford the tempo hit from cycle lands. But I would bet most cubes here not only can afford it, but would benefit from their addition. I'd even go further and say they are not last picks in a lot of decks and can be in the main cube.
Cycle lands look like crap. But here's the thing, they are the intersection where theory-crafting and magical Christmas land meet reality. I don't care how tight your drafting and deck buiiding skills are or how fantastically aggressive you are with your mulligans. There are games you wind up with hands that don't play well.
Would you prefer to have a land that doesn't ETB tapped? Of course. I'd prefer the land was an ABU dual probably or something even more broken. But there are too many times (I find anyway), where the game is going to just be over if you don't either play an ETB tapped land or don't get the card you need on the next draw (or right now). And being able to cycle for stupid cheap or play these as a slow colored mana source - in actual game play and not in magical christmas land goldfish world where all my cards fall together like a spy novel - is hugely powerful.
Maybe the tightest cubes lists where Karmic Guide is chaff can't afford the tempo hit from cycle lands. But I would bet most cubes here not only can afford it, but would benefit from their addition. I'd even go further and say they are not last picks in a lot of decks and can be in the main cube.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This would be a like for the colorful imagery alone.
I used to run the five onslaught cycling lands in my main cube. They're fine. People picked them, people played them.
It honestly just comes down to space... They aren't exciting, you know? That and the need for fixing slots drove them out eventually. Also the primary driver towards including them, or Blasted Landscape, or whatever in the BLB. One day I'll probably cave and just try it out.
It honestly just comes down to space... They aren't exciting, you know? That and the need for fixing slots drove them out eventually. Also the primary driver towards including them, or Blasted Landscape, or whatever in the BLB. One day I'll probably cave and just try it out.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is good--this is how powerful the effect of cantriping is: even fairly low powered cantriping effects can be reasoned as possible main cube additions.
Though I generally like the scry lands better for main cube use. They do a better job at addressing three types of negative variance total--color screw and mana screw--while also giving you the draw smoothing effect. Hitting three types of negative variance is really nice, especially given the high priority that drafter's already attach to color fixers, it just is really efficient on slots.
I like that better than the sort of modal choice that cycling lands provide (though they are good): either use me to hit your land drops, or use me to smooth out the rest of your hand. Its kind of awkward in the control or midrange decks that can most tolerate an ETB land, since they often times want to both build up a mana base, but also are looking for smoothers. The real benefit of cycling lands is in that top deck war scenario, where you can immediately turn dead land draws into live draws.